American military as a separate "country".???

[Trae 1]

Can't help but notice that the US military machine is looking more and more like a separate and distinct entity from the USA.

It has it's own laws , is not fully subjected to the laws of the US or other countries and decides whether or not to adhere to international agreements as it sees fit.
It also enjoys high mobility something most other countries being earthbound don't get to play with.

As a 'country' as such it operates with great efficiency due to its relatively direct command structure. It also purifies itself quite well.

As a separate entity if it's fed well it does what it's told.

A country within a country??

[Guest]

You've obviously never been in the service. If you had, you would know that your remarks are bogus.

Irrespective of your blatant misuse of an apostrophe, your post is highly misinformed.

The UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) is the law. It's also harsh. This is in addition to local, state and federal laws that all US military people must obey in addition to military law.

The laws of other countries have no bearing, however, because military members are not citizens of foreign countries, and hence are not subject to their laws.

US military compliance with the laws of foreign powers is either addressed by treaty, SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement), or the Geneva Conventions.

Debates in Speakers' Corner can be quite heated, but they are generally based upon sound reasoning and critical thinking. It is my opinion that your post lacks these traits.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Stumpy 284]

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The laws of other countries have no bearing, however, because military members are not citizens of foreign countries, and hence are not subject to their laws.

Sorry, how does that follow? I'm not a citizen of the US but if i go there i am subject to their laws - did i misunderstand you?

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[mnealtx 0]

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military members

Military members assigned to foreign countries are not (generally) subject to (some of) the host nation's laws/taxes/etc....

Google "Status of Forces Agreement".

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kc10boom 0]

The laws of other countries have no bearing, however, because military members are not citizens of foreign countries, and hence are not subject to their laws.
----------------------------------------------------------

I was in Okinawa, Japan for three years. I was witness to many of our fellow service members (AF and USMC) being held and punished under Japan law and then have to face Court Marshal proccedings. We were told time and time again that the SOFA is based off the host countries laws and taylored to agree with the UCMJ for military members. Civilians are a whole other problem.

NKAWTG...N

[Guest]

Exactly. SOFA doesn't mean that US service members are immune from host-country laws. SOFA is a compromise because of the extraordinary nature of military service on foreign soil. Civilians are on their own.

As mnealtx rightly pointed out, it is incorrect to state that US service members "are not subject" to host-country laws. My bad for not stating that more clearly.

Service members are usually punished twice - once by the host country, and then by the UCMJ.

My point was that the individual making the original post seemed to suggest that the US military is somehow a law unto itself and accountable to no one. In fact, the opposite is true.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Stumpy 284]

No - i accept that, it was just the reasoning in the post seemed wrong. "they are not subject to laws because they are not citizens of that country" was how i read it.

Which means that every time i go on holiday i can do what the hell i like!!! Cool!!!!

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[rasmack 0]

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Which means that every time i go on holiday i can do what the hell i like!!! Cool!!!!

Of course it also means that the locals can do whatever they please to you, since you are not under the protection of the law...

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Stumpy 284]

damn!! i knew there was a flaw to my plan!! i was just going to put a flag in the ground and claim a country as my own!! Its what we used to do in the past!!!

(name that tv comedy.... )

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[rasmack 0]

Could you do Denmark and Canada a favour and claim this little piece of ground?

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Stumpy 284]

I kind of had somewhere a bit warmer in mind. But sure, i guess i could start an empire again!!

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[kallend 2,150]

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Could you do Denmark and Canada a favour and claim this little piece of ground?

Maybe an invasion by a US led coalition is in order.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shropshire 0]

Yeah... like America could get another coalition together..... Ha.....Haaa..Haaaaaa.Haaaaaa.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Trae 1]

in reply to "You've obviously never been in the service. If you had, you would know that your remarks are bogus. "
.............................................................

Thank you for your attempt to inform me.
As for service.....
You'd be right if you meant my not having done any US military service.

My comments were just that ...comments
If they're bogus what does that mean?
I got my feelings wrong did I?
Aren't I well enough informed to participate in this forum?

We all get to see what appears ( to me & others ) to be a self determined entity fueled by benevolent politicians propped up by well meaning individuals running around the world doing what it wants and not giving a rats for what others (including it's supposed allies) think or feel.

Misled and misleading comes to mind when I sift through the mega-info re the US and its military might.
Bit like a bully in a sandpit whereas historically (pre Korean War) the US military seemed like angels compared to the hard rock 'mow em downs' now apparently prevalent..

Misinformed???

Please explain how those bases in Cuba qualify as US soil.

Why not do all that stuff in the US?

It is my info that what goes on at Guantanamo would not be legal if performed in the states.

Is this true? I like being enlightened and as a human can admit to making a mistake or getting it wrong sometimes.

in reply to "Debates in Speakers' Corner can be quite heated, but they are generally based upon sound reasoning and critical thinking. It is my opinion that your post lacks these traits. "
...........................................
Calling my reasoning unsound is a blanket statement that avoids the real issues and merely has a go at me.
As for lacking critical thought ....

Thankfully we can still have opinions or is this also soon to fade.?

Please pardon the naughty apostrophy

[Wopelao 0]

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Thank you for your attempt to inform me.
As for service.....
You'd be right if you meant my not having done any US military service.

So no military experience and yet you talk as a matter of factly

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My comments were just that ...comments
If they're bogus what does that mean?
I got my feelings wrong did I?
Aren't I well enough informed to participate in this forum?

It is clear you are not well informed in this area. As others have said, the US military have to comply with the US civil law (constitution, federal,state and local) and in addition, to the military law (UCMJ)

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We all get to see what appears ( to me & others ) to be a self determined entity fueled by benevolent politicians propped up by well meaning individuals running around the world doing what it wants and not giving a rats for what others (including it's supposed allies) think or feel.

Why don't you check on the court martial imposed on all those service men accused and indicted in prisoner abuse, and many other. Google is very easy to use.

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Misled and misleading comes to mind when I sift through the mega-info re the US and its military might.
Bit like a bully in a sandpit whereas historically (pre Korean War) the US military seemed like angels compared to the hard rock 'mow em downs' now apparently prevalent..

Misleading is what your comment is, as you already assumed the US military is above even their own law as you previously stated.

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Misinformed???

I think so.

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Please explain how those bases in Cuba qualify as US soil.

Why not do all that stuff in the US?

It is my info that what goes on at Guantanamo would not be legal if performed in the states.


Is this true? I like being enlightened and as a human can admit to making a mistake or getting it wrong sometimes.

Do we need to go back and explain you some history about the base in question? It would be wiser if you are REALLY interested in finding some relevant information that you do the research on your own, google is very easy indeed, and while you are at it, you may also want to find something (that might sound novell to you) about other nations also have "soil" located abroad and far from their country soil, IE Gibraltar.

Apparently you also seem to actually "know" what goes on in Guantanamo, even though you never been there as I have...but go ahead let your preconcieved views speak for themselves!.

Good day.

[ViperPilot 0]

HAHAHAHA...wait, you're serious...ummm, yeah, so I'll just go w/ what Mark said.

[Gawain 0]

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It has it's own laws , is not fully subjected to the laws of the US or other countries and decides whether or not to adhere to international agreements as it sees fit.

This is a fully uneducated, unexperienced, retarded statement. In addition to being held to UCMJ (a harsher code of laws than US civilian codes), US servicemembers are also held to local, state and federal laws. As well as laws of a host nation during peacetime. Combat zones are different, and UCMJ is plenty tough, and often tougher than a local rule.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Guest]

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Calling my reasoning unsound is a blanket statement that avoids the real issues and merely has a go at me.
As for lacking critical thought ....

Thankfully we can still have opinions or is this also soon to fade.?

Please pardon the naughty apostrophy

Please re-examine my posts carefully. At no time did I criticize you personally, just your remarks. "Criticize ideas, not people" is a hallmark of this forum and is a personal policy of mine (though I sometimes slip - silly me).

Furthermore, I did not make a "blanket statement that avoids the real issues..." - I went on to make a thorough statement about why I believed your logic was faulty.

If you are going to enage in debate here in Speakers' Corner, you would do well to prepare well-informed and reasoned arguments.

There will always be those who disagree, but you can go a long way to making it harder for them to do so.

Respectfully,

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[ExAFO 0]

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iAs for service.....
You'd be right if you meant my not having done any US military service.

Your "Political-Military Affairs" quotient just took a big hit.

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Please explain how those bases in Cuba qualify as US soil.

They do not. They are on Cuban soil, leased in perpetuity(sp?) by the US in an agreement that preceded Castro's junta, and requires mutual consent to terminate.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Trae 1]

in reply to " They are on Cuban soil, leased in perpetuity(sp?) by the US in an agreement that preceded Castro's junta, and requires mutual consent to terminate. "
................................

Thank you for at least answering a question .

I also feel well and truly put in my place as a misinformed person. So where should I go for the acceptable propaganda??? Google it ??

Life gets so simple when you're told what to think.

As for my lack of military service some-how meaning I shouldn't comment on something related to the military----
--------- this attitude of assumed elitism or psychological separation from common citizens is sort of close to what I'm getting at with the separate 'country' bit. ... the baby version of a larger mentality of separatism.

Perhaps more like a separate entity than a separate country.


US & ..........................them

I've just been commenting on what it looks like from the outside and the edges not claiming any name-dropping familiarity with it all.

I suppose I could have researched until completely brainwashed but instead thought 'what the heck one of my skydiving brothers or sisters will put me straight .....run it past them."

If everything is all hunky-dory at Guantanamo Bay then why the need for a Supreme Court judgement on whether the US Military has been acting illegally or not ?

The US military acting outside US law?

This could be because 'it' thinks 'it' has the right to do things that may be illegal as long as it's for the supposed good of all. The fall guys are appropriately dropped into the brig as it's all put right again.

I suppose what I've recognised could be better described as 'Polarity politics' or the politics of division. (Divide and conquer?)

'You're either for us or against us'

Where did all the colors between black and white go?

[ViperPilot 0]

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this attitude of assumed elitism or psychological separation from common citizens

I don't think anyone's saying that we're necessarily elite over a civilian, but there's a presumed separation because you don't know how we work...which isn't an insult of any kind, you just don't know, much like I probably have no idea about what you do for a living. Thefore there is a natural separation based on the inability to properly understand each person's career choice.

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This could be because 'it' thinks 'it' has the right to do things that may be illegal as long as it's for the supposed good of all. The fall guys are appropriately dropped into the brig as it's all put right again.

THe military does not work this way. We can't just make our own decisions. We are 100% controlled by the civilian govt. Everything comes from Bush down, period. The Secretaries are all civilians...there is total civilian control over the military. Thus, it is incorrect to say that the military can decided what it will do for the good of the country, based on what "it" thinks is right, etc.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Everything comes from Bush down, period. "
..............................................


Even though I'm a bit slow this thread is taking me somewhere good. Facts V's feelings ????
It has been heartening to have such well ordered and reasoned 'in your face' replies ( mainly from servicemen) to my admittedly slim pretext and woefully wobbly 'analogy'. I still get the feeling there are some sparks of thruth in it ... perhaps just a bit of rogue behaviour from a very small minority.

Entertaining hypothetical forethoughts sometimes brings up some pearls . This one is leaking badly as of course the US military has not achieved any real form of separateness. The founding fathers did however recognise such a danger so perhaps its not a totally unsound concern.
Is majority rule good enough if the majority are misguided???

The idea of separateness of purpose must be a constant issue that many people ( especially politicians ) have to deal with in ways we can only imagine eg trying to get a window seat in the White House

I myself disagree with a lot of the methods used in so called modern warfare. Bombing the enemy into submission appears very effective at beating the enemy but not very effective at winning support from allies . Also some-one else usually has to pick up the pieces after the dust has settled. It also fails to show us all a better way of problem resolvement. If we all dealt pre-emptively & violently with our problems this planet would not have a population problem.
I feel there must be a better way.

As the leading military force on the planet it would be hoped that the US military is based on VERY sound and humane laws and practices. In general this appears to be so. Some of the treatment of prisoners does raise a concern or two . It would seem that the most powerful force shouldn't have to stoop to bad behaviour to achieve its goals and could be a bit more gracious in victory. Yeah I know it's a tough job ......

The apparent impatience to get in there and get on with it is understandable ... crush 'em problem over . Trouble is that's not how it goes or how it's gone.

Perhaps a greater degree of transparency would show us all just what is being achieved and not just what is going wrong.
From my perspective most recently military /media reporting has looked like cover ups , propaganda and censoreship. If this view is far from the truth then I would happily stand corrected.

What is often presented in the media appears biased and antagonising encouraging emotional reaction rather than reasoned thought.
Are diplomatic studies and negotiation skills something that provide a career path in the US miltary.?

As for the real agenda for this war.... well ... it's only hidden from some of us .