The war supporters. What are our troops dying for?

[Channman 2]

Oh, I'm sorry, must of gotten the bad guys mixed up with the good guys. So who are the bad guys again? I'm confused.

[Wopelao 0]

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>Well that's a good decision if you have nothing factual to add. I wish more people were like that.

Well actually I was done for the day. Had more importants things to attend to then type away on the computer.

Sometimes its like talking to a wall here in SC.

Look I know you don't like the war, and you don't like the Pres, and you don't like America being a bully, were not but you think we are. I know you feel safe with your head in the sand, but I think we need to finish this fight.

Just to add, I have a plexiglass belly button, so when I do get my head up my ass from time to time, I can still see where I'm going.

Could be why I have an acking ass.

I find it very hipocritical that there is an invitation offer to share your opinion, and everyone seems to find fault at GWB somehow, however weak link, foolish conspirancy theory, or infactual proof. Yet the terrorists that target innocents, even their own, and who degrade their women, on the account of religion, get a free hand.....

[wmw999 2,588]

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Yet the terrorists that target innocents, even their own, and who degrade their women, on the account of religion, get a free hand

No, they don't. However, since the end doesn't justify the means under all circumstances (that whole Constitution thing), the actions that we take, as a nation, fighting terrorism can come under scrutiny.

Very few people disagreed with what we were doing in Afghanistan. There are a LOT of people who wish we had stayed there and done it with as much vigor as we're investing in Iraq. The payoff might have been a much quicker transition.

Saying "the current administration is wrong" is not saying "terrorists are right." Even if the current administration is against terrorists.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SudsyFist 0]

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So who are the bad guys again? I'm confused.

Life isn't like a Bruce Willis movie. It's a bit more complicated than that, but you're more easily influenced if the terms are kept simple and familiar.

[rehmwa 2]

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That's the status quo. What really saddens me is that most people have come to just accept that, rather than hold our leadership to higher standards.

I'll take a try here: "What really saddens me is that most people have come to just accept that, rather than hold our leadership to the same high "standards" that we would hold anyone to."

Holding people to "higher" standards makes little sense to me. Everyone is just people. I do not hold anyone up to any higher standards than I would expect from myself or anyone else. Hopefully these are all high and reasonable.

Expecting "more" from our leadership is kind of a cop-out on the expectations we would hold for anyone else. I don't want a leadership of 'superior beings' taking care of me, I want decent people doing their best, I'll take care of myself.

Darius - this isn't a nit-pick, I feel strongly about this as it saids much about attitudes when 'they' make statements about "higher standards" I consider it means higher than they think they have.......

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Channman 2]

>...but your're more easily influenced if the terms are kept simple and familirar.

Your trying to cause me pain, are't ya, just when I thought we were making some headway. Well, looks like your going to take some time coming around.

I'll be here when you do to lend a helping hand.

[SudsyFist 0]

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>...but your're more easily influenced if the terms are kept simple and familirar.

Your trying to cause me pain, are't ya, just when I thought we were making some headway. Well, looks like your going to take some time coming around.

*smooches*

My use of the word, "you," in that context was referring to the collective, not just you as an individual. Sticking to simple-and-familiar is a well known method of influencing people in general.

[Mike111 0]

i can't understand how you can believe that just because his father was president, that that would automatically make him president.

might have helped him agreed, but the deciding factor - if he was an obvious idiot who couldn't even tie his own shoelaces yet his dad was president, would they really put him in charge?

[Mike111 0]

just because he is rich doesn't necessayr mean he is incompetent....

...well paranoia with the press, who would blame them, the state the press is in now?!

[Channman 2]

>*smooches*

Damn, not here on Speakers Corner, thats how rumors start.

[kallend 2,148]

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That's the status quo. What really saddens me is that most people have come to just accept that, rather than hold our leadership to higher standards.

I'll take a try here: "What really saddens me is that most people have come to just accept that, rather than hold our leadership to the same high "standards" that we would hold anyone to."

Holding people to "higher" standards makes little sense to me. Everyone is just people. I do not hold anyone up to any higher standards than I would expect from myself or anyone else. Hopefully these are all high and reasonable.

Expecting "more" from our leadership is kind of a cop-out on the expectations we would hold for anyone else. I don't want a leadership of 'superior beings' taking care of me, I want decent people doing their best, I'll take care of myself.

Darius - this isn't a nit-pick, I feel strongly about this as it saids much about attitudes when 'they' make statements about "higher standards" I consider it means higher than they think they have.......

I don't understand this mentality at all. I expect physicians to be better than the average man-in-the-street at healing, I expect engineers to be better than the average man-in-the-street at designing airplanes and bridges, and I want those who seek out leadership roles to be better than the average man-in-the-street at administration and leadership. Unfortunately we don't seem to have that with the current administration (not that I ever expected it from GWB).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Botellines 0]

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Oh, I'm sorry, must of gotten the bad guys mixed up with the good guys. So who are the bad guys again?

Had you asked me who are the good guys i would have answered no one.
The terrorists are bad, i think to that we can agree... But fighting the bad guys doesn´t make you the good guys automatically.
In the simple world the war mongers would love to be, that could be the case, but in this complex gray world (as oppose to black and white), I will side with the innocent Iraqui civilians who are fed up with Al-Quaeda and U.S alike.

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I'm confused.

Yep, that is what happens when you start thinking on your own instead of taking for granted everything you are told. It will go away.

[SudsyFist 0]

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I do not hold anyone up to any higher standards than I would expect from myself or anyone else. Hopefully these are all high and reasonable.

I don't expect to be able to talk guanine/cytosine with the guy stocking shelves at Walmart, nor do I expect them to handle power and authority on a grand scale well.

This is kind of what I was talking about: performance, knowledge, wisdom, etc. I agree with you regarding personal standards, however.

[rehmwa 2]

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I don't understand this mentality at all.

you certainly have a job-specific definition of what the word "standards" mean - anyway, you are talking training and certification - most people mean personal standards of character when they say it generically like that. You even felt the need to specifically relate it to skill set, not really "standards" as (at least) I understand.

I understand why you struggle with the concept if you want to think of it in a narrow way like that.

But in your vocationally restrictive definition, I'll agree with you. But that isn't typically what people mean when they throw that phrase out. Try it - I like to hold my congressman to higher "administrative" standards than the common man. See? It doesn't really stick does it? They are talking about a vague impression of dissatisfaction that their leaders are just regular guys when they wanted some HERO/SAINT off to make the world a better place even when the problems aren't really defined well.

Edit: Try this, what are your values. If you were a doctor, what is the line at which you would sacrifice your values to do that job? Would expect the doctor to have that same level of commit to his values? More? Less? If you say more, then are cutting yourself slack, if you say less, then you are short changing the doctor in terms of your expectations. There's only ever one answer and only the weak willed expect more from others than they can't muster in themselves.

I'd like to throw a gratuitous political slam here at the end of my note too, but I'm really not up to it right now but I'll try. But I do wish GWB could have been much tougher on the congress - for cripes sake VETO A SPENDING BILL - reagan could do it, why not take a lesson........

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Darius11 12]

When I say we hold are selves to a higher standard I mean that we should not act like the people and governments that we criticize.


For example. If we think Sadam is a scumbag for torturing his enemies we should not be doing the same.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[IanHarrop 42]

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When I say we hold are selves to a higher standard I mean that we should not act like the people and governments that we criticize.


For example. If we think Sadam is a scumbag for torturing his enemies we should not be doing the same.

RIGHT ON !!!

Unfortunately this ship has sailed on this one... too bad...

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[ReBirth 0]

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the terrorists that target innocents, even their own, and who degrade their women, on the account of religion, get a free hand.....

Who's giving them a free hand. That's where your side is constantly mistaken.

Invade Afghanistan....GOOD...that's where AQ is based...get them.

Drastically reduce operations in Afghanistan to ramp up for war in Iraq...BAD...that's where AQ is based...get them.

Execute a half assed plan in Iraq based on lies that encourages recruitment of more terrorists...BAD

We ALL want to destroy the terrorists. However, Bush is going about it the WRONG WAY. That's the point we disagree on. But you Bush supporters constantly claiming that anyone who doesn't support Bush's failed and just plain stupid policies support terrorists are directing your anger in the wrong direction.

We are losing the war on terror. We need a new strategy. Bush's so far has sucked eggs.

[rehmwa 2]

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When I say we hold are selves to a higher standard I mean that we should not act like the people and governments that we criticize.

For example. If we think Sadam is a scumbag for torturing his enemies we should not be doing the same.

So hold them to higher standards than individuals you despise? That makes good sense.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SudsyFist 0]

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So hold them to higher standards than individuals you despise? That makes good sense.

Who's that tripping over my bridge?

[Wopelao 0]

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Yet the terrorists that target innocents, even their own, and who degrade their women, on the account of religion, get a free hand

No, they don't. However, since the end doesn't justify the means under all circumstances (that whole Constitution thing), the actions that we take, as a nation, fighting terrorism can come under scrutiny.

Very few people disagreed with what we were doing in Afghanistan. There are a LOT of people who wish we had stayed there and done it with as much vigor as we're investing in Iraq. The payoff might have been a much quicker transition.

Saying "the current administration is wrong" is not saying "terrorists are right." Even if the current administration is against terrorists.

Wendy W.

Perhaps, in your opinion, but in mine, I see more dissent with the US-anything Bush than with terrorists, or what THEY Do.

[Darius11 12]

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When I say we hold are selves to a higher standard I mean that we should not act like the people and governments that we criticize.

For example. If we think Sadam is a scumbag for torturing his enemies we should not be doing the same.

So hold them to higher standards than individuals you despise? That makes good sense.

Yes absolutely.
We are the United States of America. We are still the land of opportunity, and we are a beacon of freedom and individuality. In my opinion GWB has done way too much dameg to America.

We obey laws and value human life. If we don’t then we will be no different then what we hate.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[ReBirth 0]

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Perhaps, in your opinion, but in mine, I see more dissent with the US-anything Bush than with terrorists, or what THEY Do.

Ummm...maybe because we can't do anything to them directly politically and it's pretty much understood that pretty much no one is on their side. You're making quite a leap in judgment based on lack of seeing something.

I don't like ice cream. Therefore, I must like liver. That's the logic you're using to come to your opinion. Good luck with that.

[wmw999 2,588]

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We are the United States of America. We are still the land of opportunity, and we are a beacon of freedom and individuality.

This from someone who immigrated here. He probably has a better idea of at least how some people who are not American think. My brother lives in Brazil (where we grew up -- he lives as a Brazilian); I have cousins in Argentina. All of these people whom I know well, and their contacts, pretty much agree about the US. It might not be what they want (heck -- how many of you would move to a different city for a better job?), but that's the perception.

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In my opinion GWB has done way too much dameg to America

From all those same inputs, the same impression.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Wopelao 0]

mmm. Perhaps you (as in you alone) think we can't do nothing to them politcally. Your opinion, not mine.

We can, yet no one wants to work in unison (as it is impossible) on this problem. There are tendencies worldwide and here at home (US) that seem very forgiving to any act this enemy might do, it borders to condoning, and is very condescending in nature.

And in regards of making a leap judgement, I see many people around here that constantly make big leaps in judgement, without actually seeing or having their facts straight in any given subject. I'll give you an example, the thread about the US soldiers being immune from any US and/or international law...

[GTAVercetti 0]

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And in regards of making a leap judgement, I see many people around here that constantly make big leaps in judgement, without actually seeing or having their facts straight in any given subject. I'll give you an example, the thread about the US soldiers being immune from any US and/or international law...

God. I LOVE that argument. "He did, so I will do it too."

It never gets tiring.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.