Lewis Libby pardoned...

[rushmc 23]

OH, I forget it is the seriousness of the charge that counts. Not the facts and especialy not the law.

If Libby did not out Plame then we will pick a new law

Answer me this question. Who did tell Knovack (sp)Ms Plames name. When he testified he said he "did not recall". Even though Plame was not outed, who really did tell him?

One theory is (my turn to get out the black helicopters) was Joe Wilson!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

He said if anyone was outed. No one was outed so he is not wrong or lying

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

....and one more thing. Libby has NOT be charges with outing a CIA agent. No one has and why?

Because that law was not broken

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[ReBirth 0]

Whatever. Give me one legitimate reason that Libby would tell a reporter that Wilson's wife was a CIA operative. If you think there's nothing wrong with that, you're hopeless. Pin a medal on Libby and find another overtly corrupt act from the administration to defend.

[rushmc 23]

One of us is hopeless. I lay out the time line and facts yet you refuse to see.

In order for a crime to be commited a law has to be broken. Other than Libby lying (which was wrong) on other crime was committed.

You see in my posts the utter fraud Joe Wilson is. You want to hang your hat on him?


I don't understand the hate the left and the left leaning media have for Bush

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[ReBirth 0]

Quote

I don't understand the hate the left and the left leaning media have for Bush

Maybe the needless killing, destruction of environmental protections, record spending (nonmilitary) and deficits, holier than thou attitude.

I don't understand how anyone can't hate him.

By the way...no offense intended to anyone here, my personal observations about some individuals I've met....i said pretty much the same thing about libertarians.....
....every self proclaimed born again christian that I've ever met, I wouldn't be able to describe as exactly normal.

[billvon 3,089]

>If Libby did not out Plame then we will pick a new law . . .

You keep missing the point by wider and wider margins.

Libby was NOT indicted for outing Plame. He was indicted for lying under oath. That's a crime. Plame was certainly outed; even Bush has admitted that.

If someone like Libby IS indicted for outing her, the charge will not be for outing her, it will be for violating the terms of their security clearance. Anyone who has held such a clearance knows that it doesn't matter if "PLAME IS A SECRET AGENT" is tattooed on everyone's face; you cannot reveal classified information to the press, period. If you do you go to jail. Even if you're a god-fearing republican and not a filthy, lying, america-hating democrat.

But by all means keep defending treason. It seems to be the new spin.

[GTAVercetti 0]

Quote

I don't understand the hate the left and the left leaning media have for Bush

Tell you what. I am not left. I am liberal, but liberal in the true sense not the democrat sense. I don't hate him. But I have a very INTENSE dislike for his administration and his policy. And guess what?

It actually has VERY little to do with this incident.

I just don't think he is doing a good job, will not listen to any one's ideas outside his inner circle, he is inept at presenting a good public face, has created a bigger government than ever before, is instrumental in making the rest of the world dislike us..etc,etc.

I REALLY tried to give him the benefit of the doubt after reading some very good pieces about him during his first election (and form liberal sources at that!!!), but he has not lived up to anything he promised. Unified? No. A White House with diginity? No. Compassionate Conservative? Yeah right...and on and on.

Is it ALL his fault? Fuck no. The congress, both left and right are also retarded and pathetic, but he IS the president and has just a LITTLE power to do something but has inspired NO faith in me.



carry on

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[rushmc 23]

I am not missing any dam point.

I have said multiple times lying is a crime. I have also explained my lack of comfort of how they got to this too.

PLAME WAS NOT OUTED. If she was, where is the charge????????

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[EricTheRed 0]

Quote

I am not missing any dam point.

I have said multiple times lying is a crime. I have also explained my lack of comfort of how they got to this too.

PLAME WAS NOT OUTED. If she was, where is the charge????????

And this man http://www.crimelibrary.com/capone/caponemain.htm
never did anything wrong other than cheat a bit on his taxes.

illegible usually

[billvon 3,089]

>PLAME WAS NOT OUTED.

So let me see if I got all these GOP talking points straight -

Bush takes the Plame outing very seriously and will fire anyone involved with it.

Bush takes the Plame outing very seriously, wants an investigation, an will fire anyone convicted of a crime.

Bush wants an investigation after the election.

Wilson outed Plame.

No one outed Plame.

Plame wasn't really an agent.

Plame outed herself.

Maybe Libby did it, but then he should be pardoned.

Did I cover them all? I assume you are on the "no one outed Plame" kick. So your position is she is still an undercover agent, and no one knows she works for the CIA?

For some reason the GOP response to this reminds me of that scene from The Blues Brothers:

------------------------------------
Jake: Oh please don't kill us. Please, please don't kill us. You know I love ya baby, I wouldn't leave ya. It wasn't my fault.

Women: You miserable slug. You think you can talk you're way out of this? You betrayed me.

Jake: No, I didn't. Honest. I ran outta gas. I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from outta town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake, a terrible flood, locusts. It wasn't my fault!! I swear to God!!
-------------------------------------

[chuckbrown 0]

Quote

Right. But since a CIA agent _was_ outed, we know a crime was committed.

Huh?

There are very specific elements that need to be satisfied for a crime to have been committed under the applicable statutes. The fact of the matter is that the disclosure of Plame's identity hasn't been shown to violate any criminal statutes.

[ReBirth 0]

Quote

the disclosure of Plame's identity hasn't been shown to violate any criminal statutes

Fine...forget criminal charges. What about the responsibility to the American public not to sabotage their intelligence organizations in order to further a personal political agenda?

How is that a good thing?

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

the disclosure of Plame's identity hasn't been shown to violate any criminal statutes

Fine...forget criminal charges. What about the responsibility to the American public not to sabotage their intelligence organizations in order to further a personal political agenda?

How is that a good thing?

Oh my gosh... Plame was mentioned... and now Marcinkowski has been named... however is the CIA going to do their jobs?

If you want to see sabotage of the intelligence community, look at how Clinton gutted them during his tenure...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[ReBirth 0]

Quote

If you want to see sabotage of the intelligence community, look at how Clinton gutted them during his tenure...

See my post from other thread....irony.

[mnealtx 0]

Hey, if John can keep putting up that picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein from 20 years ago....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[chuckbrown 0]

Quote

Quote

the disclosure of Plame's identity hasn't been shown to violate any criminal statutes

Fine...forget criminal charges. What about the responsibility to the American public not to sabotage their intelligence organizations in order to further a personal political agenda?

How is that a good thing?

That is as bad a thing as the intelligence organizations attempting to sabotage the policies of our elected officials for their own political agenda.

Look at it this way... The Bush administration was accused of lying by Joe Wilson. They rightly wanted to know who is Joe Wilson, how did he get involved in this, and why is he lying about the governments decision-making process. Wouldn't you want to know this if you were accused of lying, and you knew you didn't lie? Gee, his wife works at the CIA and used her influence to see that he be assigned to the trip to Nigeria to investigate claims of Iraqi attempts to procure uranium. Do you think she didn't know her husband's obvious bias against the administration (evidenced by his "misstatements.") Did she do anything to correct his "missstatements?" No, she was using her position at the CIA to undermine the policies of the elected government, and it blew up in her and her lying husband's face. She doesn't deserve a career at the CIA.

[EricTheRed 0]

Quote

Look at it this way... The Bush administration was accused of lying by Joe Wilson. They rightly wanted to know who is Joe Wilson, how did he get involved in this, and why is he lying about the governments decision-making process. Wouldn't you want to know this if you were accused of lying, and you knew you didn't lie? Gee, his wife works at the CIA and used her influence to see that he be assigned to the trip to Nigeria to investigate claims of Iraqi attempts to procure uranium. Do you think she didn't know her husband's obvious bias against the administration (evidenced by his "misstatements.") Did she do anything to correct his "missstatements?" No, she was using her position at the CIA to undermine the policies of the elected government, and it blew up in her and her lying husband's face. She doesn't deserve a career at the CIA.

And if Bush was actually lying? Then Wilson was telling the truth. How does that scenerio compute.
There are many signs that this may have in fact been the case.

illegible usually

[ReBirth 0]

Quote

Hey, if John can keep putting up that picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein from 20 years ago....

One more time...RUMSFELD IS STILL IN POWER. How can you not see the difference?

[GTAVercetti 0]

YAY!!

and we are back to blame the victim.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[ReBirth 0]

Quote

No, she was using her position at the CIA to undermine the policies of the elected government, and it blew up in her and her lying husband's face. She doesn't deserve a career at the CIA.

Supposing the above is a fact. How does that excuse the administration for releasing classified information to the press?

Quote

That is as bad a thing as the intelligence organizations attempting to sabotage the policies of our elected officials for their own political agenda.

You're right...and if that happened, there should be an investigation there as well. However I don't think it would be kind to the administration if there were.

Why do I want ALL people guilty of pulling this crap, no matter their political persuasion, put under scrutiny. While Bush supporters only want his opponents investigated, leave Bush and his cronies alone. It's disgusting.

[SudsyFist 0]

Quote

If you want to see sabotage of the intelligence community, look at how Clinton gutted them during his tenure...

From where, exactly, do you get this info? I worked in the community through a bulk of Clinton's reign, and I've really no freakin' idea what you're talking about.

[SudsyFist 0]

Quote

No, she was using her position at the CIA to undermine the policies of the elected government,

Your conclusions are at best speculative. It would be good if you regarded (and presented) them as such.

EDIT: Annihilated stray prepositional phrase.

[billvon 3,089]

>The Bush administration was accused of lying by Joe Wilson.

No. The Bush administration was accused of lying by the US Department of Justice. Joe Wilson's accusation doesn't matter; Libby is not being prosecuted for that. He lied under oath to a special investigator, not to Joe Wilson.

[chuckbrown 0]

Quote

>The Bush administration was accused of lying by Joe Wilson.

No. The Bush administration was accused of lying by the US Department of Justice. Joe Wilson's accusation doesn't matter; Libby is not being prosecuted for that. He lied under oath to a special investigator, not to Joe Wilson.

Where has the DOJ accused "the Bush administration" of lying?