It's wrong or its right. Make up your minds!

[Darius11 12]

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lets remember the 3000 that died 9/11

Yea and lets not forget we started this war on false facts and lies so everything after is the cause of are invasion.

9-11 had nothing to do with Iraq.
And while we are remembering people who were wrongfully murdered lets remember the inocent Iraqis that have been killed as well.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Trent 0]

I've read all about the abuses reported in the press. My question to you, Bill, was more specific than you answered... or maybe you really do think that the 20 dead and 400 tortured prisoners were all innocent. If that's the case, we have to just leave this argument at the same place we left the bodycount argument last year. You will continue to beleive that everyone is innocent, and I will continue to beleive that there are some innocent victims here, but not all. Unless we go to these places and see what we think for ourselves, there's no telling. I just choose to think that the US is not the evil monster that many people here and around the world paint it to be. Popular opinions may indeed have their base in reality, but there was also that time when everyone thought the world was flat.

Oh, hello again!

[Darius11 12]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/20/60minutes/main710396.shtml


Here is an American news source.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 3,080]

>maybe you really do think that the 20 dead and 400 tortured
>prisoners were all innocent.

We know some were. Let's say half were innocent. 10 dead and 200 innocent people tortured is still too many.

>I just choose to think that the US is not the evil monster that many
>people here and around the world paint it to be.

It's not. But we are doing our level best to prove to the world that we ARE monsters. The face of the US has become the picture below. And that's our fault, not anyone else's.

[Trent 0]

As I mentioned before I think they're covert for more than one reason. I also acknowlegge that it may ALSO be that they can use more direct methods of getting info, which could include a beating.

What is also interesting is that pretty much the same people who just assume these covert prisons are ONLY for torturing innocent people, also chant the mantra heard many times over "Torture does NOT work for interrogation!" I'm beginning to think that we either have tons of interrogation experts here, who've done some research themselves... or a bunch of people who just can't possible IMAGINE that the actual interrogators of the world might actually know this and use different methods to get information. Of course, maybe we're just bloodthirsty dogs like people are inclined to say.

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

I guess we just differ on responsibility assigned as well. I'd say that pictures like that are the fault of the fucktards in them and the jackoffs taking them. There's some blame for anyone instructing non-interrogators to do any "softening" or interrogating. Then, there's a good bit of blame for (and you probably won't agree) the world press and the gullible masses who see a picture like that and think that stuff like that is a practice and not an exception.

And any innocent casualty is too much, but this is part of what happens in any war... whether or not you think it is a just or unjust war.

Oh, hello again!

[Alias 0]

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Prisoners having electrodes attached to their testicles.

......but not electrocuted......scare tactic

I see your point. But it seems that majority of what we consider toture is simple rough intimidation.

The Chinese, Russians and many African nations could really educate us on what torture really is. Sorry, humiliation, kept in uncomfortable positions, no sleep, etc....not torture in my book

Carpe Diem

[Darius11 12]

But if we are holding everyone to a higher standard shouldn’t we lead by example?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 3,080]

>I'd say that pictures like that are the fault of the fucktards in them . .

I agree. But a) it is putting a face on the issue and b) we sure seem to have a lot of fucktards lately - almost like it's a systematic problem instead of a 'few bad apples.' And until we identify the systematic problem we can't fix it.

>Then, there's a good bit of blame for (and you probably won't agree)
> the world press and the gullible masses who see a picture like that
> and think that stuff like that is a practice and not an exception.

That argument starts wearing thin after the 100th picture is posted.

>And any innocent casualty is too much . . .

But there is an absolutely huge difference (in my mind) between accidentally dropping a bomb on someone's house and kicking a naked prisoner to death in a prison cell. One is somewhat defensible; one isn't.

[ReBirth 0]

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and I will continue to beleive that there are some innocent victims here

Enough said. If any of our policies result in the torture and/or deaths of any innocent person, than those policies ARE evil.

[Trent 0]

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b) we sure seem to have a lot of fucktards lately - almost like it's a systematic problem instead of a 'few bad apples.' And until we identify the systematic problem we can't fix it.

and

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That argument starts wearing thin after the 100th picture is posted.

90% of the pictures I've seen seem to be the same fucktards from the same time-period at the same prison. Yes, I Googled for them. Maybe you can point me to where, other than this instance (which has people being prosecuted for it), where it seems that torture (not just intimidation) is a systematic problem. Seriously.

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

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Enough said. If any of our policies result in the torture and/or deaths of any innocent person, than those policies ARE evil.

By that rationale, we couldn't even defend ourselves if attacked at home.

I know it's cliche to go to a WW2 example, but would you blame the Allies for innocent deaths in battles and bombings, or would you blame the people who thrust war upon the world?

Oh, hello again!

[ReBirth 0]

There's a difference between innocents being killed in the middle of a battle, and helpless, bound and naked prisoners being beaten to death. If you condone that, don't you think we should apply the same tactics with suspected criminals in the US? If not, why not?

[Trent 0]

You didn't say helpless, bound and naked prisoners you said:

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If any of our policies result in the torture and/or deaths of any innocent person, than those policies ARE evil.

And I have never said that I condone the killing of prisoners. Intimidation and certain interrogation methods do not amount to torture in my opinion, but beating people to death does.

Oh, hello again!

[ReBirth 0]

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Intimidation and certain interrogation methods do not amount to torture in my opinion, but beating people to death does.

The policies I referred to were policies of illegal, unethical, and inhuman treatment of people that are our prisoners.

I agree completely with your statement. However, you said that some innocents may have died. Since we were talking about interrogation I assumed you meant as a result of interrogation. I would consider any interrogation that could kill someone to come under the heading of torture.

[billvon 3,080]

> Maybe you can point me to where, other than this instance (which
> has people being prosecuted for it), where it seems that torture (not
> just intimidation) is a systematic problem. Seriously.

The US military (which I hope you will agree is not a lefty reactionary US-hating organization) has concluded that 26 prisoner deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan have been homicides, in a report published March 26, 2005. The DoD removed 17 soldiers from duty at Abu Ghraib as a result of an investigation into torture there (which is just one prison.) Gen. Taguba documented many cases of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib. Three coalition soldiers (UK) were accused of war crimes in Basra, where they beat and killed several detainees. Three US soldiers reported widespread abuse and torture, including putting acid into prisoner's eyes, at a camp called Mercury just outside Fallujah; they claim this was OK with their commander. Just this week two more US soldiers were charged with prisoner abuse in Afghanistan.

How many incidents would you have to see before you start thinking it might be more than one or two bad apples?

[Gawain 0]

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My questions are these:

Are Americans comfortable with US government sanctioned mistreatment of prisoners?

Prove to me the government sanctioned abuse of prisoners.

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If so, why does it need to take place abroad? Why don't they stand proud and let the torture take place on American soil? Why all this sneaking around?

What are you basing this on? The press? The same press that doesn't leave their hotel rooms to report on the events in Iraq?

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If not, when are the American people going to stand up and tell their government in no uncertain terms that this behaviour is wrong?

Shit, have you seen US prisons? Conditions there are better than some conditions free people in some countries have.

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My own view is that people in a democracy that sit quietly whilst their government repeatedly breaks international law are as guilty as their government is.

My own view is that for those that believe the whining and deliberate rants of those claiming to have been abused, seemingly forgetting where these low-lifes come from, are guilty of nothing, but are sadly misled by a liberal agenda.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Haaaaaa!
<< if it aids in getting good intel>> - good dentistry never seemed to appear on UK list of priorities before...... so what's changed?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah, intereseting you would put image above integrity, I'm assuming you'd rather have crooked administration than crooked teeth.

Hi guys, have you missed me?

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[SudsyFist 0]

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Hi guys, have you missed me?

Sorely. How's the wee one?

[crozby 0]

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Prove to me the government sanctioned abuse of prisoners.
...
What are you basing this on? The press? The same press that doesn't leave their hotel rooms to report on the events in Iraq?

Do some research on 'Rendition' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition).

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My own view is that for those that believe the whining and deliberate rants of those claiming to have been abused, seemingly forgetting where these low-lifes come from, are guilty of nothing, but are sadly misled by a liberal agenda.

yeah right ... and I suppose it's down to the liberal agenda that very nearly none of these hundreds of whingers have been charged with anything despite being locked up for years.

[rehmwa 2]

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How's the wee one?

isn't that a little personal?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ReBirth 0]

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My own view is that for those that believe the whining and deliberate rants of those claiming to have been abused, seemingly forgetting where these low-lifes come from, are guilty of nothing, but are sadly misled by a liberal agenda.

Thanks for the new slogan...

Liberals - Don't want people tortured based solely on where they come from.

Yeah...I can see how you find that unpallatable.

[billvon 3,080]

>very nearly none of these hundreds of whingers have been charged
>with anything despite being locked up for years.

For some reason, they just released two of these dangerous criminals, no doubt due to some liberal whiner who thought they were innocent:

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Writers jailed in 2002 for political satire

After three years at Guantanamo, Afghan writers found to be no threat to United States

October 31, 2005

PESHAWAR, Pakistan -- Badr Zaman Badr and his brother Abdurrahim Muslim Dost relish writing a good joke that jabs a corrupt politician or distills the sufferings of fellow Afghans. Badr admires the political satires in "The Canterbury Tales" and "Gulliver's Travels," and Dost wrote some wicked lampoons in the 1990s, accusing Afghan mullahs of growing rich while preaching and organizing jihad. So in 2002, when the U.S. military shackled the writers and flew them to Guantanamo among prisoners whom Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld declared "the worst of the worst" violent terrorists, the brothers found life imitating farce.

For months, grim interrogators grilled them over a satirical article Dost had written in 1998, when the Clinton administration offered a $5-million reward for Osama bin Laden. Dost responded that Afghans put up 5 million Afghanis -- equivalent to $113 -- for the arrest of President Bill Clinton.

"It was a lampoon ... of the poor Afghan economy" under the Taliban, Badr recalled. The article carefully instructed Afghans how to identify Clinton if they stumbled upon him. "It said he was clean-shaven, had light-colored eyes and he had been seen involved in a scandal with Monica Lewinsky," Badr said.

The interrogators, some flown down from Washington, didn't get the joke, he said. "Again and again, they were asking questions about this article. We had to explain that this was a satire." He paused. "It was really pathetic."

It took the brothers three years to convince the Americans that they posed no threat to Clinton or the United States, and to get released -- a struggle that underscores the enormous odds weighing against innocent foreign Muslims caught in America's military prisons.
------------------------

[ReBirth 0]

It's fucking Clinton's fault...as usual

Seriously, though. If that story is completely legit, that's pretty f'd up right there.

[Trent 0]

So you mention 26 deaths at 3 different locations. Given the amount of prisoners and number of prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan, I wouldn't call that rampant or widespread. I wonder how many prisoners in the US are victims of homicide in prison each year. Yes, these people are fucking stupid for abusing prisoners. Yes, they deserve to be punished, and Yes... they are being punished.

We still have the same basic disagreement that all prisoners and dead are merely innocent victims.

Oh, hello again!