i'm NOT christian... and proud of it!!!

[jakee 1,571]

  Quote

  Quote

All animlas are capable fo both selfish and co operative behaviour. I think co operative behaviour in animlas(including humans) is more common than you think. One only has to be aware that tit for tat consitently beat always defect in prisoner dilema simulations to see evidence for that.

  Quote

  Quote

For example, some people wrote to me saying, ‘isn’t what you call the Moral Law simply our herd instinct and hasn’t it been developed just like all our other instincts?’ Now I do not deny that we may have a herd instinct: but that is not what I mean by the Moral Law. We all know what it feels like to be prompted by instinct – by mother love, or sexual instinct, or the instinct for food. It means that you feel a strong want or desire to act in a certain way. And, of course, we sometimes do feel just that sort of desire to help another person: and no doubt that desire is due to the herd instinct. But feeling a desire to help is quite different from feeling that you ought to help whether you want to or not. Supposing you hear a cry for help from a man in danger. You will probably feel two desires – one a desire to give help (due to your herd instinct), the other a desire to keep out of danger (due to the instinct for self-preservation). But you will find inside you, in addition to these two impulses, a third thing which tells you that you ought to follow the impulse to help, and suppress the impulse to run away. Now this thing that judges between two instincts, that decides which should be encouraged, cannot itself be either of them. You might as well say that the sheet of music which tells you, at a given moment, to play one note on the piano and not another, is itself one of the notes on the keyboard. The Moral Law tells us the tune we have to play: our instincts are merely the keys.
--C.S. Lewis

Interesting, seems to be a paraphrasing of one of the arguments in Plato's 'Phaedo'. However it seems to preclude the very free will you were talking about earlier. Saying the Moral Law tells us what to do when two sets of instincts clash leaves no room for independant decision making.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

• Quote

Share this post

---

Link to post

Share on other sites

[pajarito 0]

  Quote

Interesting, seems to be a paraphrasing of one of the arguments in Plato's 'Phaedo'. However it seems to preclude the very free will you were talking about earlier. Saying the Moral Law tells us what to do when two sets of instincts clash leaves no room for independant decision making.

It tells us what we aught to do. It does not force you to do it. You can choose to do the right thing or not.

  Quote

But feeling a desire to help is quite different from feeling that you ought to help whether you want to or not.

[pajarito 0]

  Quote

Interesting, seems to be a paraphrasing of one of the arguments in Plato's 'Phaedo'.

How do you know that Plato ever really existed?

I believe he did, of course, but how do you know?

[jakee 1,571]

I don't think I've ever written that Jesus didn't exist.

Also, while I believe Plato and Socrates both existed I do not believe that everything Plato wrote about Socrates is true.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pajarito 0]

  Quote

I don't think I've ever written that Jesus didn't exist.

Also, while I believe Plato and Socrates both existed I do not believe that everything Plato wrote about Socrates is true.

Shouldn't have directed that at you. Just putting it out there. I guess mainly for the hairy one.

[jakee 1,571]

So, you want to provoke it into posting more links?

I wonder how many forums it has to troll to sell one copy of its book?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pajarito 0]

  Quote

So, you want to provoke it into posting more links?

I wonder how many forums it has to troll to sell one copy of its book?

I wish he'd JUST STOP SCREAMING at me. I can't take it anymore.

[philh 0]

"It’s all about motive. You don’t have to perform the act to be guilty. You’ve thought about it."
If that were true and valid why not make our civil law on that basis? Someone thought about committing a crime, so why dont we arrest them and have a thought police? Backs up what ive always thought; religion is just fascism , the blind obedience to authority - real or imagined.

Religious people talk about free will, its all nonsese. 2 reasons;
1 in a democratic country an election is considered a free election if poeple are free to vote for whom they want. If the repulicans said if you dont vote for us we will torture you , I dont think anyone would consider it a free election or a free choice. In most mono theistic religions there is a punishment for not chosing to follow the religion therefore it is not a free choice.

2. In mono theistics religion there is the view that god can see the future perfectly(hence prophesy). the ability to perfectly see the future means that no one has free will as the universe would have to be completley deterministic to have perfect foresight of the future, complete determinism contradicts free will.

[caspar 0]

my only reply and i think is the same as many people is:

i cant stand really religious people, in a way i feel sorry for them. i can see how they feel sorry for us BUT there is no missing piece or hole in my life that religion can fill. with myself and many people, we dont need to have faith and we dont scare so easily as back when religion came about hence why more people are atheist. wanna be religious go for it, there a lot of values you can live by which are comendable but i wouldnt want to hinder my growth as a person by putting restrictions on what i can and cant do. in a perfect world we wouldnt need rules and punishments (hell) to make us evolve into the ideal that christians strive to reach.

im sure when im busted up and dying i'll be praying but hey i think we all become religious when we're desperate and scared i guess.
not something to base your life on though.....fear of the unknown, of your own mortality.

probably a dumb post but im a work writing in between calls so my line of thought keeps getting interrupted.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[pajarito 0]

  Quote

  Quote

"It’s all about motive. You don’t have to perform the act to be guilty. You’ve thought about it."

If that were true and valid why not make our civil law on that basis? Someone thought about committing a crime, so why dont we arrest them and have a thought police? Backs up what ive always thought; religion is just fascism , the blind obedience to authority - real or imagined.

It’s because we aren’t capable of knowing the thought life of an individual. God can and does. We will be judged by every though and deed (private or not) during this lifetime. It’s like you’ve got a mechanism hanging on your ear which records everything you’ve ever thought of (everything) during your lifetime. That recording will be presented as evidence when you stand before God.

  Quote

Religious people talk about free will, its all nonsese. 2 reasons;
1 in a democratic country an election is considered a free election if poeple are free to vote for whom they want. If the repulicans said if you dont vote for us we will torture you , I dont think anyone would consider it a free election or a free choice. In most mono theistic religions there is a punishment for not chosing to follow the religion therefore it is not a free choice.

2. In mono theistics religion there is the view that god can see the future perfectly(hence prophesy). the ability to perfectly see the future means that no one has free will as the universe would have to be completley deterministic to have perfect foresight of the future, complete determinism contradicts free will.

It is impossible for us to know the mind of God. His understanding and sovereignty is so great that he knows how things will unfold. He knows our nature perfectly and can predict our actions or thoughts. On the other hand, he created us with the free will to choose or reject life which is in Him. We are able to discern between right and wrong and make a decision. Both free will and predestination can be shown to exist equally in scripture. Some call this a paradox because we can’t understand how they work together and that they appear to be mutually exclusive. They obviously exist together. We just don’t understand how. In reference to prophesy, God does allow and use evil to occur for his purpose (e.g. Christ’s crucifixion).

[pajarito 0]

  Quote

i can see how they feel sorry for us BUT there is no missing piece or hole in my life that religion can fill.

Many modern evangelistic movements push this notion but that is NOT the purpose of the Christian message. It is not to “fill a God sized hole in your heart.” It is NOT to make your life easier or more enjoyable. It will NOT necessarily increase your happiness with your life. Happiness, contentment, fulfillment, etc. are rightful attributes of the “born again” Christian, however, it is not because of what occurs or does not occur in this life to suite our purposes. It is because of the promise to come. The Apostle Paul was a Roman citizen and a murderer of Christians. He had everything going for him. He then was converted and became a Christian. From that point on, he put his own life in danger and made himself a target. For the rest of his life, he endured hardship, persecution, was imprisoned, and eventually beheaded. He slept like a baby before his execution because he KNEW his reward for suffering for the cause of Christ.

I completely agree that the analogy you described above makes absolutely no sense to the non-Christian. Let’s say you make a good living, have lots put away in retirement, own a Harley that you pull around on a trailer behind your big expensive truck, are good looking, famous, and have a date with a different girl almost every night. Why in the world would it make sense for someone to tell you that you need Jesus in order to complete your life? You don’t need Jesus to fill a hole in your heart. You need Jesus to be your representative before the completely holy and just judge who you will face on Judgment Day. You and I both are lawbreakers and are fully guilty of our own choice of breaking God’s moral law of righteousness. You need Jesus in order to save yourself from the wrath to come. It’s coming.

[peregrinerose 0]

Paj, that was well written. I wish that more Christians actually believed and lived that way, according to the teachings of the Bible rather than the more evangelical trends lately. It would probably make relations between Christians and non-Christians somewhat less strained.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[hairyjuan 0]

the bible is NOT what you have been led to 'believe, it is. when are you going to wake up to the facts. your religion was created solely for the purpose of controlling a herd of sheep. which is exactly what the top dogs of the religious fraud perpetrators think of you.



what profit hath not the FABLE of christ brought us, Pope leo X

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[pajarito 0]

  Quote

Do or do not, there is no try - Yoda

I really like that sig line!

[pajarito 0]

  Quote

the bible is NOT what you have been led to 'believe, it is. when are you going to wake up to the facts. your religion was created solely for the purpose of controlling a herd of sheep. which is exactly what the top dogs of the religious fraud perpetrators think of you.

You come across as very angry. Was there a "top dog of the religious fraud" in particular who caused you to be this way?

[caspar 0]

i wrote a huge reply but i suddenly reallised, this conversation is completely futile. im glad you believe and you are happy, but if someone pushes it on me enough i get angry fast. im happy and ive spent ALOT of time thinking about religion and death etc, i feel i chose the LOGICAL choice.

if god created me, he gave me the power to think and choose. and well, if i happen to chose he doesnt exist and i dont follow "his rules" then he's a dumbass and if he punishes me i'll be laughing my arse off thinking...people worship that fuctard? O SMITE ME GREAT ONE!!!!

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[pajarito 0]

I have more respect for you than for someone who does not or will not make a choice. I hope it works out for you.

[hairyjuan 0]

mistaken interpolation of how I AM I feels. intelligent research brought me tothe place i am i is today. when are you going to stop denying this truth- RELIGION IS MIND-CONTROL-GOD IS BORG

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[livendive 8]

  Quote

  Quote

How can you categorically say that I'm wrong?

You're the one who claimed absolute knowledge! : " believe that everyone "

  Quote

You would have to possess all knowledge to make such a statement

All I affirm is that at least 1 (me in case I need to spell things out) person doesnt fall into your presumption.

Seconded.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[hairyjuan 0]

any religion that claimsto havethe only answer to life's great questions is blatantly false. xtianity, judaism, and islam, all originating from the the loins of the myth ABRAHAM, all claim to be theonly true path! all three have done more than enough killing in their efforts to be the only religion. that is what makes them WRONG!


[url]www.truthbeknown.com

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[pajarito 0]

  Quote

any religion that claimsto havethe only answer to life's great questions is blatantly false. xtianity, judaism, and islam, all originating from the the loins of the myth ABRAHAM, all claim to be theonly true path! all three have done more than enough killing in their efforts to be the only religion. that is what makes them WRONG!

  Quote

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

A "religion" did not make that claim. Jesus Christ did. All other religions you mentioned are "works righteous" religions in that you must follow their guidelines and that you must "earn" your way to salvation through doing so. There is nothing you can "do" to save yourself. You are guilty and are going to stand judgement.

Also, you are correct in that many have misused Christianity. They've used God's word out of context and changed it for their own selfish purposes. The life and teachings of Jesus still stand, though.

[peregrinerose 0]

  Quote

I really like that sig line!

Thanks

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[SpeedRacer 1]

This is your own website, isn't it?

So how many hits are you up to by now?

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[philh 0]

"It’s because we aren’t capable of knowing the thought life of an individual. "
So if it were possible you would be happy to arrest people for their thoughts?

"Both free will and predestination can be shown to exist equally in scripture. Some call this a paradox because we can’t understand how they work together and that they appear to be mutually exclusive. They obviously exist together. We just don’t understand how. "

So what you are saying is that yes you recognise the contradiction between free will and determinism. But becuase that contradiction is in the bible and you believe the bible doesnt have contradictions then it cant be a contradiction. HHm see your circular reasoning? Its amazing how bible people just assume its all true and then get the result its all true!

[shaiziel 0]

  Quote

There is nothing you can "do" to save yourself. You are guilty and are going to stand judgement.

There is actually something you have to do to be saved. "Have faith in god and accept that jesus death on the cross was for your sins.." blah blah blah and so on.

Once again. For god to ask man, the sinful being man is, who is inherently fallible in all ways, specifically those which come to "making choices", to follow god's will and have faith in god when all we have as a point of reference for even the mere existence of a god is a book written by several different people, who were also fallible by nature, each with different perspectives who's stories were reviewed by the fallible leaders of a religious institution and discarded as the leaders saw necessary to protect their fallible perspective of the orthodoxy as THEY determined it should be, and for god to expect mankind to make the "right" decision to put their faith in god, despite these circumstances, is simply absurd and irrational. As a matter of fact, the only thing more absurd and irrational is the fact that the all-powerful god would punish the entirity of mankind for making the wrong choice when it was supposedly god himself who made man.

And the only thing more absurd and irrational than both of these things, is that people continually, for no other reason than self-righteous, self-absorbed, and just plain selfish motivation, buy into a belief system which is founded upon being created one way and being told to be the opposite because they way they are created is wrong, lest they be punished eternally for wholly insignificant problems of a temporary life.

It is, loosely, fucking bullshit.

For god to allow all of mankind, in all it's filth and impurity, who before christ had no way to enter heaven outside of fallibly following an infallible code of conduct, to enter heaven would be a disgrace to the notion of heaven. But for god to allow any of mankind to go to hell, and have those who went to heaven have no choice but to forget those who were fallen while they mindlessly worship god for all his mercy and grace, is an obscene, pitiful, disgrace to the notion of god.

----------------------------------------
6.8% - Almost there!