Welfare and B-Control

[sinker 0]

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Ahhh...I see...punish the unborn child by removing any ability for the mother to feed, clothe or shelter herself.

How about she gets a fucking job like the rest of us. The goverment is responsible TO people not FOR people. The governments job is to make sure everyone has the option to work because jobs are available. It's up to the individual to be a slack ass or not be a slack ass.

New word.. Slack Ass

Ok...so the baby should get a job?

well, I hear that Cathy Lee Gifford is accepting applications...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Lindsey 0]

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Ahhh...I see...punish the unborn child by removing any ability for the mother to feed, clothe or shelter herself.

How about she gets a fucking job like the rest of us. The goverment is responsible TO people not FOR people. The governments job is to make sure everyone has the option to work because jobs are available. It's up to the individual to be a slack ass or not be a slack ass.

New word.. Slack Ass

I don't think I've EVER agreed with you before....EVER. I must be turning into a hard ass. I do think that we should tend to some basics, though. Make sure kids have health care. Provide an avenue for child care so that a would-be slack-ass can work.... WIC (but not food stamps), imho is a good idea.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[sinker 0]

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Ahhh...I see...punish the unborn child by removing any ability for the mother to feed, clothe or shelter herself.

How about she gets a fucking job like the rest of us. The goverment is responsible TO people not FOR people. The governments job is to make sure everyone has the option to work because jobs are available. It's up to the individual to be a slack ass or not be a slack ass.

New word.. Slack Ass

I don't think I've EVER agreed with you before....EVER. I must be turning into a hard ass. I do think that we should tend to some basics, though. Make sure kids have health care. Provide an avenue for child care so that a would-be slack-ass can work.... WIC (but not food stamps), imho is a good idea.

linz

isn't it amazing that people w/ such divergent views can see eye to eye on somethings? I'm w/ you lindsey... do everything possible to support the mom while she gets back to work so she can get out of the viscious cycle...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[EricTheRed 0]

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This is not about my christian ideal (your preconceptions about me just don't hold water on that score). Your anti-christian bigotry really stands out when you spout crap about others christian ideals. I'm explaining to closed minds why some parents resist certain policies, nothing else, something that's ludicrously been suggested is because christians fear sex. (That's the kind of brazenly bigoted and flawed claim seems to be fashionable in some circles.) They have an absolute RIGHT to raise THEIR kids to THEIR christian ideals without you sticking your big nose in their private family affairs.

Take a breath Dorbie:

a) I have no preconcieved notions about you. I can only base my opinions of you on what you write in this forum. If you are ever in the neighborhood, look me up, we can have a beer, or coffee and you can tell me all about your superior morals.

b) I could give a rat's ass about how you raise your kids. The point is, unless you lock them in a closet, they will learn about sex from someone. It is your job to teach them what ever you believe. You want to tell them sex B4 mariage is bad? Great. I support you 100% and commend you for it.
I wish you the best of luck because every study that I have ever seem indicates that the vast majority of people do, in fact, have pre-maritial sex, despite what their parents told them. I would prefer these relationships NOT result in children unless planned and wanted.

c) It is most definately NOT your job (and not even your responsibility) to tell the rest of the people in your city, county, state or country what thier kids should and shoud not know.

d) I have absolutely no desire to encourage your kids to have sex. I have no grand social engineering plan and no animosity to christians (or people of any religion) unless they try to impose their own social engineering plan. I simply believe that information should be freely given and that personal choice should be supported.
To withhold information is social engineering through censorship. The failure to educate children on sexuality is censorship.

You may not fear sex, but you certainly seem to think that teaching kids about sex and birth control will cause harm. Why?

illegible usually

[Zenister 0]

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They have an absolute RIGHT to raise THEIR kids to THEIR christian ideals without you sticking your big nose in their private family affairs.

sex education is more than a 'private family affair' it SHOULD be MANDATORY by 9th grade in public schools.. if you wish to teach your kids something 'different' from the basic facts you either teach them about it before hand, or send them to a private institution where they can recieve whatever religious indoctrination you desire...

however popluation control, and sexual responsibility are Public Social issues, not private family ones...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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>that smacks more of pessimism and paranoia more than anything else...

Hey, it wasn't my idea to saddle newborns with a load of sin.

>and a fundamental lack of understanding in basic catholic theology.

There are levels of understanding.

... including "wrong," "tainted," "skewed," "distored"

and "Experienced" which outweighs your opinion of what Catholicism SHOULD be....

not SHOULD... IS...

so do you believe that every 'anti-catholic' poster here is MAKING UP their experience?

take your blinders off, there is a very real reason for those experiences, and the LARGE number of people who hold the same view as BV and myself is proof that there is something rotten inside your Church...and it continues EVERYDAY in Catholic Learning Institutions.... it is directly related to the conduct, codes and practical application of Catholic upbringing, no matter what you believe your Church 'really is'....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[sinker 0]

so do you believe that every 'anti-catholic' poster here is MAKING UP their experience?

take your blinders off, there is a very real reason for those experiences, and the LARGE number of people who hold the same view as BV and myself is proof that there is something rotten inside your Church...and it continues EVERYDAY in Catholic Learning Institutions.... it is directly related to the conduct, codes and practical application of Catholic upbringing, no matter what you believe your Church 'really is'....***

i don't know why you insist on being so damn negative, but whatever zen... it's a shame you're such a broken record... you've missed so much of the spirit of this thread.

i don't discount or discredit any bad experience any "anti-catholic" has had... I wasn't there and don't know the details. However, in my experience, most of the time, situations like those are fundamentally due to misunderstandings of doctrine, faulty modes of teaching, bad examply by authorities, etc.

i have no blinders on... you equate the problems in the church to be caused fundamentally by the teachings of the church itself, as opposed to the other possible causes. that is where you are mistaken. You claim that the "catholic school girl archetype" (jung would be rolling in his grave at that one zen) is a direct cause of catholic teaching of sexuality... it's not so simple and for every "naughty little school girl" there are other virtuous, chaste girls who don't abuse their bodies and treat themselves as objects b/c they received good sound teaching.

I know what my church is "really" about... I'm in it... I've been to rome many times... I've met two popes, read most of their writings, spent time w/ mother theresa in gallup NM, read the catechism, etc etc etc... I know the faith and understand it. I'm well adjusted and happy with my life within the faith. So are those of my friends and family. If others have been hurt, it hasn't been "by the faith" it has been by abusive applications thereof.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Zenister 0]

i havent missed any of the thread.. its mildly amusing to watch you have fun with arbitrary numbers, but thats about it...

and i'm not being negative.. you seem to be inclined to completely overlook all the faults in your Church, and there are a great number of them.. the Church is a far different thing than the Faith... even for Catholics.. and has become a self serving institution, a machine that grinds from nothing to nothing and continues to produce damaged individuals in its wake...

i'm quite sure there ARE some few who followed every dictum to the letter and never strayed, however a simple flip thru my school books reminds me they were clearly in the minority... no matter how pretty they dress up on Sunday... i know where they were Fri/Sat... and i know how damaged they've become because they've been indoctrinated with guilt over the expression of their natural feelings...

teaching guilt from birth is a fundamental flaw.. period...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[sinker 0]

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i havent missed any of the thread.. its mildly amusing to watch you have fun with arbitrary numbers, but thats about it...

and i'm not being negative.. you seem to be inclined to completely overlook all the faults in your Church, and there are a great number of them.. the Church is a far different thing than the Faith... even for Catholics.. and has become a self serving institution, a machine that grinds from nothing to nothing and continues to produce damaged individuals in its wake...

i'm quite sure there ARE some few who followed every dictum to the letter and never strayed, however a simple flip thru my school books reminds me they were clearly in the minority... no matter how pretty they dress up on Sunday... i know where they were Fri/Sat... and i know how damaged they've become because they've been indoctrinated with guilt over the expression of their natural feelings...

teaching guilt from birth is a fundamental flaw.. period...

from your post here it is very clear you don't have clue 1... sorry... your experience is more limited than you think. that's about all I can say to you, nothing gets through...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[kallend 2,146]

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i havent missed any of the thread.. its mildly amusing to watch you have fun with arbitrary numbers, but thats about it...

and i'm not being negative.. you seem to be inclined to completely overlook all the faults in your Church, and there are a great number of them.. the Church is a far different thing than the Faith... even for Catholics.. and has become a self serving institution, a machine that grinds from nothing to nothing and continues to produce damaged individuals in its wake...

i'm quite sure there ARE some few who followed every dictum to the letter and never strayed, however a simple flip thru my school books reminds me they were clearly in the minority... no matter how pretty they dress up on Sunday... i know where they were Fri/Sat... and i know how damaged they've become because they've been indoctrinated with guilt over the expression of their natural feelings...

teaching guilt from birth is a fundamental flaw.. period...

from your post here it is very clear you don't have clue 1... sorry... your experience is more limited than you think. that's about all I can say to you, nothing gets through...

That appears to be a bi-directional problem.

Teaching guilt from birth IS a fundamental flaw.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sinker 0]

That appears to be a bi-directional problem.

Teaching guilt from birth IS a fundamental flaw. ***

to your first statement, not so, as evidenced by many pages in this thread... i think I've become quite a bit more maleable in my approach, disposition, willingness to consider alternatives, etc.

As to your second statement, the distinction must be made b/t actual and inherited sin. Obviously a newborn child is innocent and guilty of no sin. In fact, my particular church teaches that the child isn't even really capable of true sin until the "age of reason," around 7ish or so... however, w/ regards to inherited sin, I know this is seen as bullshit, but in looking at the creation narrative, adam and eve and all that, it says that mankind is cursed w/ the sin of adam -- disobedience to god...

well, look at humans as they grow... it's not that far fetched a theory... toddlers, children, kids, teens, even adults, all have to struggle w/ the seemingly inate tendancy towards what? Selfishness... greed... avarice... in literature, movies, everywhere, it's the human condition. Everywhere it seems we can hear mention of the interior struggle b/t doing what is right and not doing what is wrong... that's concupisence, the effects of original sin. We all have it.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Zenister 0]

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i havent missed any of the thread.. its mildly amusing to watch you have fun with arbitrary numbers, but thats about it...

and i'm not being negative.. you seem to be inclined to completely overlook all the faults in your Church, and there are a great number of them.. the Church is a far different thing than the Faith... even for Catholics.. and has become a self serving institution, a machine that grinds from nothing to nothing and continues to produce damaged individuals in its wake...

i'm quite sure there ARE some few who followed every dictum to the letter and never strayed, however a simple flip thru my school books reminds me they were clearly in the minority... no matter how pretty they dress up on Sunday... i know where they were Fri/Sat... and i know how damaged they've become because they've been indoctrinated with guilt over the expression of their natural feelings...

teaching guilt from birth is a fundamental flaw.. period...

from your post here it is very clear you don't have clue 1... sorry... your experience is more limited than you think. that's about all I can say to you, nothing gets through...

actually i'm up to clue 3000.. at that point i recognized Catholicism was a lost cause, a dead end belief system, that while may fund a large number of hospitals and charities (i will admit it does SOME good) is stuck in the Middle Ages in its understanding of human nature, behavior and religious needs...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[sinker 0]

actually i'm up to clue 3000.. at that point i recognized Catholicism was a lost cause, a dead end belief system, that while may fund a large number of hospitals and charities is stuck in the Middle Ages in its understanding of human nature, behavior and religious needs... ***

yet it's survived 2000+ years and will survive the likes of you. it understands human nature alot better than you think.

what is amazing to me is that here you stand, all of what? 30-40 years of age, so much more wise and learned than the collective wisdom and intelligence of over 2000 years of some of the best minds the world has ever produced... your attitude is dumbfounding...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[dorbie 0]

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You may not fear sex, but you certainly seem to think that teaching kids about sex and birth control will cause harm. Why?

FYI I would insist on teaching my kid about sex and birth control. That doesn't mean I think your masterplan for everyone's children or your defamation of all christians is acceptable.

[billvon 3,107]

>That doesn't mean I think your masterplan for everyone's children or
>your defamation of all christians is acceptable.

You must have missed:

"I could give a rat's ass about how you raise your kids."

and

"You want to tell them sex B4 mariage is bad? Great. I support you 100% and commend you for it."

and

"It is most definately NOT your job (and not even your responsibility) to tell the rest of the people in your city, county, state or country what thier kids should and shoud not know."

and

"I have absolutely no desire to encourage your kids to have sex."

[dorbie 0]

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>That doesn't mean I think your masterplan for everyone's children or
>your defamation of all christians is acceptable.

You must have missed:

"I could give a rat's ass about how you raise your kids."

and

"You want to tell them sex B4 mariage is bad? Great. I support you 100% and commend you for it."

and

"It is most definately NOT your job (and not even your responsibility) to tell the rest of the people in your city, county, state or country what thier kids should and shoud not know."

and

"I have absolutely no desire to encourage your kids to have sex."

It's pompous nonsense to advocate a school program of social engineering for economic reasons, attack & denigrate those who oppose it (as fearful christians) over concern about the impact they justifiably think it will have on THEIR children, then turn around and claim not only that you don't care how someone raises their kids but that anyone who objects to the grand plan for imposing this on schools is the one attempting control. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

I actually favor this kind of education for my kid (although the devil is in the details). However others who choose not to support it should not be attacked & belittled as christians who fear sex, even when they live in sufficient numbers to send you packing.

It's not about what your opinion is on the best way to raise a kid, it's about the freedom of people to raise their kids as they see fit and my position is a heck of a lot closer to advocating that freedom, despite the attempt by the pot to call the kettle black.

P.S. if you didn't go around dismissing christians as afraid of sex and other such nonsense when they disagree with a policy that they have every right to influence then "they" might ragard your platform with less distrust & distain.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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It's pompous nonsense to advocate a school program of social engineering for economic reasons, attack & denigrate those who oppose it (as fearful christians) over concern about the impact they justifiably think it will have on THEIR children, then turn around and claim not only that you don't care how someone raises their kids but that anyone who objects to the grand plan for imposing this on schools is the one attempting control. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

This is quite a bit like the Intelligent Design argument. Humans are wired to be horny a large portion of the time during adolescence. Ignoring this fact doesn't do anybody any favors.
Teaching kids about birth control is basic risk management. Teens are going to have sex, generally speaking. Few would argue that teens are mature enough, except in a strictly physical sense, to procreate. They are capable, but rarely ready. We need to give them the tools to prevent kids from having kids until they are ready for the responsibility of parenting.

Teaching teens about birth control in public schools is neither a "master plan" nor a defamation of Christianity as you claim.
It is as much common sense as teaching kids about germs and encouraging them to wash their hands after they use the bathroom and before they eat.

[Feeblemind 1]

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You post a lot of threads wanting to punish people that you perceive of as taking advantage of welfare. Seems to be a pet topic of yours. They are an EXTREME MINORITY of the people that receive welfare.

And, even if you assumed every person on welfare didn't deserve it, that's LESS THAN 1% OF YOUR TAXES going to them. If you want to be pissed about people ripping off your tax money, there are much more worthy causes.

1%??? What state do you live in?? Take a look at California's state budget over 35% is spent on health and social services. When you are talking aboiut the 7th largest economy in the world, that's a chunk of change!!

Edited for booboo's

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[billvon 3,107]

>It's pompous nonsense to advocate a school program of social engineering . . .

Not only are you not reading other people's posts, I don't think you are reading your own replies! You're picking fights with people's positions that don't exist. Neither of us are saying you should raise your kids any other way than the way you want. If you don't want them to have sex, make it clear that they can't, then keep em home until they're 21. If you don't like that schools teach evolution, or condom usage, or physics, then home school them. If you don't want them watching TV, don't let em watch TV. Geez.

[Zenister 0]

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actually i'm up to clue 3000.. at that point i recognized Catholicism was a lost cause, a dead end belief system, that while may fund a large number of hospitals and charities is stuck in the Middle Ages in its understanding of human nature, behavior and religious needs... ***

yet it's survived 2000+ years and will survive the likes of you. it understands human nature alot better than you think.

what is amazing to me is that here you stand, all of what? 30-40 years of age, so much more wise and learned than the collective wisdom and intelligence of over 2000 years of some of the best minds the world has ever produced... your attitude is dumbfounding...

although you might not have noticed if you haven’t been paying attention to history, it’s influence has fallen GREATLY since the rulers (and later the general public) recognized that the 'authority' of the church extends only as far as they allow it, and that nothing claimed by the Church as "Divine Law" is in fact, anything more than a primitive means of arbitary social control, one that has since been thrown out by every country on the planet...

Catholicism’s continued decline is largely due to its inability to adapt to the change in society, and the continual expanding recognition that very little of what it claims as "Truth" holds up under rational examination socially, philosophically or religiously..

oh.. and btw..you might be interested to note that knowledge is both Progressive and Cumulative.. (if you bother to read what has come before instead of banning/burning the books and their authors for heresy, heresy that both contradicts the teaching of the Church and is later PROVEN to be TRUE so much for a direct line to God eh?? perhaps the Pope should switch to Verizon.. ) the Church you praise so highly is still trapped in the dark ages.. particularly when it comes to issues such as Birth Control...sing with me.... "Every Sperm...."

and yes, the sooner the rest of the uneducated, unenlightened masses throw off the religious indoctrination imposed apon them by 'the Church' and learn to see God for themselves (as more and more 'born Catholics' have and do everyday) the better the entire planet will be...

it is an archaic social structure.. dying a slow death like all such outdated belief systems (without the power and money it seized in the middle ages it would be long since dead) but the true believers will fail to recognize how little real influence they have until it is FAR to late...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Guest]

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up to 2 kids? no problem.. but if you already have 2 kids or become pregnant with your second, the welfare should cease unless you have yourself sterilized..

So, the children should starve because the mother is a fuck up? I don't get the upside to this kind of thinking.

"If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em." - What's so damned hard about that? Are people so ignorant that they don't understand how babies are made???

It's an inescapable economic fact that when you subsidize something, you get more of it.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,107]

>"If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."

That statement is a wise one. But once people screw up, it is compassion, not wisdom, that leads us to feed even the 'mistakes.' Keep in mind that some of those 'mistakes' have grown up to be incredible scientists, composers and philosophers.

>It's an inescapable economic fact that when you subsidize
>something, you get more of it.

I think it says something good about our society that compassion often trumps economics.

[Guest]

I guess what really pulls my chain is that people demand to be individuals and unique and all that, but want to be selective about it, and expect collective support for their failures.

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I guess what really pulls my chain is that people demand to be individuals and unique and all that, but want to be selective about it, and expect collective support for their failures.

Should we hold young children responsible for their failure to have gainfully employed parents?

[dorbie 0]

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>It's pompous nonsense to advocate a school program of social engineering . . .

Not only are you not reading other people's posts, I don't think you are reading your own replies! You're picking fights with people's positions that don't exist. Neither of us are saying you should raise your kids any other way than the way you want. If you don't want them to have sex, make it clear that they can't, then keep em home until they're 21. If you don't like that schools teach evolution, or condom usage, or physics, then home school them. If you don't want them watching TV, don't let em watch TV. Geez.

What was being advocated earlier was a school program to push a social agenda for economics sake. It's my memory of earlier posts and not my failure to read later contradictions that are confusing you.

You drag the teaching of evolution in schools into this and have the cheek to accuse me of not reading posts and picking arguments with positions that aren't being made.

Your problem Bill is you see every poster through the prism of your preconceived notions of what you assume they think.

Parents should not have to home school their kids to avoid them being taught about condom useage at an age and in a context which the parent finds inappropriate.

There's a difference between teaching evolution and teaching the use of contraceptives, one is plain science fact and the ignorant go pound sand, the other is a social and parenting choice.