16 kids!!!!!!!!

[SpeedRacer 1]

Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed, in your neighborhood!
Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate!

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[SpeedRacer 1]

Sixteen kids, and whaddya get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[VisionAir 0]

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So...why judge? Have you spoken to the children?

No kidding!!! I've never seen such judgemental people then on here...oh wait a minute yes I have...back in high school. I mean come on..your dissing her hair?!?!?! How many women have worried about how they look just after having a baby...and it's obviously just long hair pulled back in a ponytail.

The older I get the more people I see that just need to grow up!

Huh?!? What cloud?!? Oh that!!! That's just Industrial Haze
Alex M.

[skycat 0]

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Quote

So...why judge? Have you spoken to the children?

No kidding!!! I've never seen such judgemental people then on here...oh wait a minute yes I have...back in high school. I mean come on..your dissing her hair?!?!?! How many women have worried about how they look just after having a baby...and it's obviously just long hair pulled back in a ponytail.

The older I get the more people I see that just need to grow up!

Actually it's not in a pony tail it is cut that way, it's exactly the same as the documentary about that family last year. I believe it's their beliefs, all the girls have long hair and wear dresses and all the boys wear collard shirts and slacks. That is one family that is not going to have to worry about the girls dressing like Britney Spears or Christina Aguilera.

The Duggar website if anyone is interested.
http://www.jimbob.info

Fly it like you stole it!

[sinker 0]

hmmm... what an interesting thread... I can honestly say that some posts here really surprised me... in a good way. I expected MORE bashing of people who excerised their freedom of "choice" to have a large family. And believe me, w/ these types of families, it's a choice, as is powerfully evident in this family. It isn't just haphazard, lack-of-self-control, don't-you-know-what-causes-pregnancy-yet? ignorance, as many "enlightened "pro-choicers" and no-kidders believe. Good on all you who had kind remarks and praise for this family and the path they have chosen.

But shame on those of you who have been insensitive and mocking! As many of you know my lovely wife and I have four great kids, and plan on having more. Still, in the grocery store, with only 4, we get stares, comments like, "gosh, are they all YOURS?" "can't you give your wife a break mister?" "you live in a trailer don'tcha!" "thanks for overpopulating the world!" and similar insensitivities.

So many people in our society have very little respect for children and parents. I see it when I travel for work all the time... moms boarding planes w/ kids... "oh shit... don't let that mom and her f*cking brats sit here..."

People opposed to abortion often have more kids than those who are for abortion. Not always, but often. Notice that I didn't use the words "pro-life" and "pro-choice." There are those in the pro-abortion audience that are so quick to use the "choice" word to defend their stance, yet are so incredibly derisive and judgemental when "pro-lifers" exercise that same "choice" to HAVE children... as if the more superior, logical, compassionate, realistic, humane, (insert adjective here) "choice" is to a) either not have kids, b) abort the kid or c) have a very limited number of kids... to have more than 1 or 2 is looked at w/ such disdain... it just makes me sick. I know, some can't have kids, some can only have 1 or 2 for whatever reason... I'm not criticising that here at all...

I have people all the time, including a former boss, making jokes about when I'm planning on getting a vasectomy. Um, hello? How about my choice to NOT get one? "Oh... that's just b/c you belong to a religion that espouses antiquated beliefs on procreative sex... you need to graduate into the 21st century..." uh huh... I've 4 years of graduate education, make a large salary, don't live in a trailor, am not on welfare, spend oodles of time w/ my kids, as does my wife, a former teacher who home-schools the kids, and we're doing just fine, thanks. And we'll continue to "be fruitful and multiply."

There is no greater joy in life than to a) make babies, b) witness their birth c) watch them grow d) educate them e) be loved by them and love them in return.... nothing, NOTHING compares...

One last thing... for God's sake, lay off the chic's hair, alright? How f*cking shallow can you get... sheesh...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Notice that I didn't use the words "pro-life" and "pro-choice." There are those in the pro-abortion audience that are so quick to use the "choice" word to defend their stance, yet are so incredibly derisive and judgemental when "pro-lifers" exercise that same "choice" to HAVE children... as if the more superior, logical, compassionate, realistic, humane, (insert adjective here) "choice" is to a) either not have kids, b) abort the kid or c) have a very limited number of kids... to have more than 1 or 2 is looked at w/ such disdain... it just makes me sick. I know, some can't have kids, some can only have 1 or 2 for whatever reason... I'm not criticising that here at all...

Pro choice and pro abortion are not synonymous. Pro choice is about believing that it is not the governments place to make personal decisions for people.

And, in your first paragraph (I didn't quote it) you point out that most people didn't criticize this couple for having 16 kids, that they respected their choice.

BTW, after everyone agreed that they had the choice to have as many kids as they could raise responsibly, all that really left was the hair to argue about. It's not shallow; it's Speakers Corner!

[crwtom 0]

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>I am also looking at the health issue for the mother, having that
>many kids so often CAN NOT be good for her body.

It's what her body was designed to do. It's surely better for her than drinking and smoking.

designed or not - pregnancy is, per-se, a high risk activity.

According to WHO maternal mortality in the North America is
1:3700, which roughly says one pregnancy is about as dangerous
as 35 skydives. So the mother of an average size family in the
US will have earned her B or C license.

For the mother of 16 kids you're talking somewhere around
560 skydives - she may be getting ready for her AFF rating.

This, however, only because medical attention in the US during
delivery is very highly developed. If you're arguing (evolutionary
or phantasy) design you also need to look into countries where
medical attention is far less developed (anything from basic
hygiene, over ultrasound monitoring to the surgical technology
helping in C-sections are not part of evolution)

For Africa WHO reports maternal mortality of 1:16. Bearing and
delivering one child is thus as perilous as more than 8000
skydives. An african mother of just one child would therefore be
entitled to her Septa Diamond Wings.

An african woman that becomes pregnant with 16 children will
have a chance of survival of about 1:3, and you're talking
6-digit jump numbers.

For the principle of natural selection the survival of the mother is
actually secondary - the survival of the child is the primary point
for selection. If the child is OK the gene survives. There's, of
course, an advantage if the mother also survives in order to
produce a second and third child and thus a second and third
copy of a gene carrier. But that'd be a secondary factor.

Aside from mortality there are also many health risks related to
pregnancy that do not necessarily result in death. Among them
diabetes, accelerated osteoporosis, hernias, increased risks of
some cancers, damage from infection, and all sorts-of possible
complications following delivery or C-section.


Having said all these terrible things let me add that having a
child is still about the coolest thing there is in life. If that mother
can manage the health, financial, and educational issues she'd be
the about the luckiest on the planet.

Cheers, T

*******************************************************************
Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[steve1 5]

I have a hard time thinking that anyone who has 16 kids, in this day and age, is more than a little nuts. I know some churches really encourage this sort of thing, saying it's God's will and all. In my mind it is the height of irresponsibility.

One must be almost blind not to realize that we are running out of natural resources at a rapid rate. Hundreds of people starve to death on a daily basis in Africa. How long till it's that way here. There's never been as many people on planet Earth as there are right now. Yet people continue to ignore all this and have 16 kids, and then say it's the Lord's will.

Pardon me for being so judgmental, but I just don't get it. I feel that I like kids as well as anyone. I'd also like to see future generations of people have a quality of life. How will that be possible if we over populate the Earth. That's one big reason I only had two kids.

If you have studied animal populations, there is self regulation to overpopulation. Namely starvation and disease. When the numbers get too high, it's dog eat dog until the population goes way down. I'd like to think that people are smarter than all that, and that we don't have to let it happen. Trusting in some magical being, to solve all this, is ridiculous.

Then I suppose the next argument is how exactly we are going to solve the worlds overpopulation problem. I'm not a big fan of government regulation. I believe in individual rights, but I'd be willing to bet the government does start taking a role in controlling this problem in the future....Steve1

[sinker 0]

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I have a hard time thinking that anyone who has 16 kids, in this day and age, is more than a little nuts. I know some churches really encourage this sort of thing, saying it's God's will and all. In my mind it is the height of irresponsibility.

One must be almost blind not to realize that we are running out of natural resources at a rapid rate. Hundreds of people starve to death on a daily basis in Africa. How long till it's that way here. There's never been as many people on planet Earth as there are right now. Yet people continue to ignore all this and have 16 kids, and then say it's the Lord's will.

Pardon me for being so judgmental, but I just don't get it. I feel that I like kids as well as anyone. I'd also like to see future generations of people have a quality of life. How will that be possible if we over populate the Earth. That's one big reason I only had two kids.

If you have studied animal populations, there is self regulation to overpopulation. Namely starvation and disease. When the numbers get too high, it's dog eat dog until the population goes way down. I'd like to think that people are smarter than all that, and that we don't have to let it happen. Trusting in some magical being, to solve all this, is ridiculous.

Then I suppose the next argument is how exactly we are going to solve the worlds overpopulation problem. I'm not a big fan of government regulation. I believe in individual rights, but I'd be willing to bet the government does start taking a role in controlling this problem in the future....Steve1

Why are people starving in Africa? It's not due to lack of resources per se as much as it is due to the unfair distribution of wealth. We produce enough food in this country to feed the entire world. And most of this country too, might I remind you, is unpopulated. Furthermore, we haven't even begun to tap the earths resources re: energy, food (hello, ocean?), etc. And don't even talk to me about how much of the earth is uninhabitable.... look at the desert of the southwest, largely habitable now due to the hoover dam and the sacrifices made in the great depression to make that modern miracle of engineering and architecture to help make a desert (a DESERT!) not only liveable, but a thriving part of the country.

The world is not over populated... far from it... that's much more of a myth than you believe "God" to be...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[MarkM 0]

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Then I suppose the next argument is how exactly we are going to solve the worlds overpopulation problem.

First you have to determine when, and if, there's going to be an overpopulation problem. Unlike animals, humans produce resources, not just consume them. And if humans didn't produce more than they consumed we wouldn't have progressed past a hunting and gathering society. The lower class has to generate excess to feed the upper classes in an advanced society,

Food is grown by humans, farm land is created by humans, metals recycled and pulled from the ground. Electricity generated(people build the plants). And while there are hard limits to some resources(only so much oil and metal in the ground), you can often find replacements(plastics and bio-fuel).

[tso-d_chris 0]

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We produce enough food in this country to feed the entire world. And most of this country too, might I remind you, is unpopulated.

That's a bit like counting the same land twice. If the land were not unpopulated, we could not use it to produce food.

Also, due to the exponential nature of population growth, if we waited to slow population growth until the point where there is actually a problem, it would be too late.

BTW, I still respect your choice to have a big family.

[MC208B 0]

More power to them! If they are good parents and can afford to provide for their children, so what?

Maybe Mom and Dad should learn to fly and buy a DC3 for family vacations tho

[cloudseeker2001 0]

I used to know a girl who was 16 out of 18.....Her poor mom was all used up and falling apart-really! She was 16 and her oldest sister was in her 40's!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[steve1 5]

Quote

[
The world is not over populated... far from it... that's much more of a myth than you believe "God" to be...

I couldn't disagree with you more!

I guess it all boils down to what a person considers quality of life. I value nature and the outdoors. I love to hunt and fish with my family. I wonder how long a person will even be able to enjoy these pursuits. Houses, roads, and concrete, are rapidly laying waste to wildlife habitat. I wonder how long it will be until we destroy ourselves.

I also like the freedom that comes with living in an area that is underpopulated. With fewer people a whole lot fewer laws are needed to keep everyone happy.

I don't recall how many billion people the world population expands each year, but to me it is terrible. ?

Oh sure we can probably go right on with run away population growth saying it's the Lord's will, until it all comes tumbling down. And then we can say, I guess it's the Lord's will for that to happen also. I wish some people would put away their blinders and get their heads out of the sand, and quit trusting in god to solve all this.

I guess it also boils down to what a person considers quality of life. Some people seem content to live in a place where it's like living with rats in a barrel. I watched a video recently of people in a train station in India. What a mess! People were scurrying everywhere. They had to have several large men pushing, just to cram all these starving people on board the train. I don't want to live like that, and it doesn't have to be if more people would wake up and deal with the problem.

As far as their being room for plenty more people, I truly have my doubts. Sure we can come up with some sort of masterplan that sounds great on paper, but in the long run it's going to fail. Right now planet earth is in delicate balance yet people choose to ignore all the danger signs, and look at things through rose-colored glasses.

It's kind of like inhabiting the moon. Sure we can do it for a while, until one day maybe the oxygen system fails. Then it's going to be dog eat dog for a lot of people.....Steve1

[sinker 0]

I guess it all boils down to what a person considers quality of life. I value nature and the outdoors. I love to hunt and fish with my family. I wonder how long a person will even be able to enjoy these pursuits. ***


did you know that every single person in the world could fit in the state of texas and have over 1200 square feet EACH... hmmm... think you'd still have enough room in the world to go hunt and fish w/ your family?

we haven't even begun to tap the world's resources... the world only looks overpopulated b/c of incredible density in certain areas like parts of india, china, nyc, etc. ever fly across the US? most of the country is UNpopulated and is completely habitable. People need to quick looking at the world w/ such a scarcity mentality. As someone earlier very wisely pointed out, humans have the capacity (unlike just about every other animal) of producing more than they consume as well as using their creativity and intellect to solve problems and come up w/ novel solutions. We will not see our beloved earth destroyed or filled to capacity anytime soon... ever in fact... anyone who believes otherwise has swallowed a lie...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[tso-d_chris 0]

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did you know that every single person in the world could fit in the state of texas and have over 1200 square feet EACH...

I had to double check this for myself. 1160 sq ft. or so actually. The thing is, the Earth's population is expanding by close to 100,000,000 people per year.

When you consider how quickly the rate of population growth is increasing, it will not be as long as you think before the Earth would be overpopulated.

Did you know that 10% of all the people that have ever lived are alive today? (source: About Time by Paul Davies)

[sinker 0]

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did you know that every single person in the world could fit in the state of texas and have over 1200 square feet EACH...

I had to double check this for myself. 1160 sq ft. or so actually. The thing is, the Earth's population is expanding by close to 100,000,000 people per year.

When you consider how quickly the rate of population growth is increasing, it will not be as long as you think before the Earth would be overpopulated.

Did you know that 10% of all the people that have ever lived are alive today? (source: About Time by Paul Davies)

at a rate of 100 mil a year, it will take a while to fill the entire US... the world is bigger than you think.. then you have the vastness of canada... how 'bout this... develop an algorithm to determine when, at our current growth rate, the entire habitable parts of the earth will be filled. But be honest, true growth rate has to be considered. in many parts of the world, there ISN'T a growth rate, there is a decline... people are dying faster than people are being born... and in other countries, there is a stangnant growth rate... people are barely replacing themselves...

c'mon... scare tactics do nothing but scare... we would do well to do more to end the injustices of unfair distribution of wealth, lack of adequate housing, elimination of poverty, providing quality healthcare, etc., to the densely populated areas of the world... as well as to teach them better technologies in agriculture, energy use, etc.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[tso-d_chris 0]

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at a rate of 100 mil a year, it will take a while to fill the entire US... the world is bigger than you think.. then you have the vastness of canada... how 'bout this... develop an algorithm to determine when, at our current growth rate, the entire habitable parts of the earth will be filled. But be honest, true growth rate has to be considered. in many parts of the world, there ISN'T a growth rate, there is a decline... people are dying faster than people are being born... and in other countries, there is a stangnant growth rate... people are barely replacing themselves...

Overall, the world population is growing, although the rate at which it is growing is in fact declining (my mistake). Nonetheless, sustained growth cannot be maintained forever. There is a finite amount of space.
I think we have different ideas of long term. I consider anything within my lifetime to be relatively short term, at least in the context of population.

[sinker 0]

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at a rate of 100 mil a year, it will take a while to fill the entire US... the world is bigger than you think.. then you have the vastness of canada... how 'bout this... develop an algorithm to determine when, at our current growth rate, the entire habitable parts of the earth will be filled. But be honest, true growth rate has to be considered. in many parts of the world, there ISN'T a growth rate, there is a decline... people are dying faster than people are being born... and in other countries, there is a stangnant growth rate... people are barely replacing themselves...

Overall, the world population is growing, although the rate at which it is growing is in fact declining (my mistake). Nonetheless, sustained growth cannot be maintained forever. There is a finite amount of space.
I think we have different ideas of long term. I consider anything within my lifetime to be relatively short term, at least in the context of population.

I would agree w/ just about everything you said in this last post... finite space, our lifetimes = short term, etc. I personally look forward to the creative ideas that others come up w/ vis a vis food creation and distribution, shelter, etc...

another disturbing issue in all of this is natural and man-made disasters... the tsunami from last year killed hundreds of thousands. so many of other disasters and wars take such a toll, I wouldn't be surprised if in the next century or two we saw a decrease in the worlds population...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

Just saw this... thought it was interesting and a little relevant to our discussion here...

Question 1:

If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who
were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis,
would you recommend that she have an abortion?

Read the next question before looking at the response for this one.


Question 2:

It is time to elect a new world leader, and only your vote counts. Here are
the facts about the three candidates.

Candidate A -- Associates with crooked politicians, and consults with
astrologists. He's had two mistresses. He also chain smokes and drinks 8 to
10 martinis a day.

Candidate B -- He was kicked out of office twice, sleeps until noon, used
opium in college, and drinks a quart of whiskey every evening.

Candidate C -- He is a decorated war hero. He's a vegetarian, doesn't
smoke,
drinks an occasional beer and never cheated on his wife.


Which of these candidates would be your choice?


Decide first ... no peeking, then scroll down for the response.







Candidate A is Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Candidate B is Winston Churchill.

Candidate C is Adolph Hitler



And, by the way, on your answer to the abortion question:

If you said, "YES!"







you just killed Beethoven.


Pretty interesting isn't it? Makes a person think before judging someone.
Wait till you see the end of this note! Keep reading ...


Never be afraid to try something new ...

Remember ... Amateurs built the ark ... Professionals...built the Titanic!

And Finally can you imagine working for a company that has a little more
than 500 employees and has the following statistics:




29 have been accused of spousal abuse
7 have been arrested for fraud
19 have been accused of writing bad checks
117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
3 have done time for assault
71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
8 have been arrested for shoplifting
21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year...







Can you guess which organization this is?



Give up yet?








It's the 535 members of the United States Congress.

The same group of idiots that crank out hundreds of new laws each year
designed to keep the rest of us in line.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[billvon 3,116]

>And Finally can you imagine working for a company that has a little
>more than 500 employees and has the following statistics:

>29 have been accused of spousal abuse (etc etc)

Right. But if you believe in the idea behind question 2 above, those are the good ones! If you had a congress of honest vegetarian war heroes who don't cheat, they'd all turn into Hitlers, right?

(I know, I know, those two parts of the post aren't supposed to go together . . . )

[sinker 0]

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>And Finally can you imagine working for a company that has a little
>more than 500 employees and has the following statistics:

>29 have been accused of spousal abuse (etc etc)

Right. But if you believe in the idea behind question 2 above, those are the good ones! If you had a congress of honest vegetarian war heroes who don't cheat, they'd all turn into Hitlers, right?

(I know, I know, those two parts of the post aren't supposed to go together . . . )

yeah, actually I meant to delete that part, since it wasn't germain to the thread here...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I wouldn't be surprised if in the next century or two we saw a decrease in the worlds population...

Not if all parents decided to have sixteen kids.

From a microperspective, an individual pair of parents having sixteen+/- kids is a personal choice.

From a macroperspective, if all parents chose to have sixteen+/- kids, it would cause a population explosion in short order.

[Nightingale 0]

I am pro choice. I am not pro-abortion. Personally, I will never have an abortion. That's my choice. However, I will never tell anyone else what to do with their bodies and their fertility. How many kids someone else wants to have is their business, and I should have no say whatsoever in that. That's what pro-choice is all about. i've made my choice, but I will not presume to choose for somebody else.

[Muenkel 0]

This decision is fine for you because you are convinced that life does not begin until birth. For all of us that believe life begins at conception, believe an abortion is murder and therefore cannot support it in any way. That includes not voting for pro-choice politicians. We do not condone anyone else's choice to take another life.

_________________________________________
Chris