Torture

[rehmwa 2]

[reply/]You and I have a different definition of reality then. A movie is simply not reality; it's about as far as you can get from reality. Confusing entertainment with reality leads to some very bad things.

[billvon 3,092]

>I think his point is Hollywood is full of hypocrits as they produce
>entertainment in direct conflict with their "public" politics.

Hmm. I guess I just don't see entertainment as even remotely congruent to reality. I play chess, yet I don't advocate using footsoldiers to kill horses when they cross paths. I've played Risk although I think war is often a mistake. I've even played Doom, although I don't think Marines should kill everything they see on new planets they are exploring.

[SudsyFist 0]

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They therefore play to the masses, that this is an exceptable method of gaining information to protect the poor and down trodden.

I doubt that this is the de facto popular opinion in our country (poll, anyone?), but I agree that the media does desensitize the masses to methods like this.

Here's some more fiction vs. reality, though. In movies, torture is an effective method of gaining information. In reality, it is HUGELY ineffective, mostly resulting in terribly inaccurate intelligence.

So not only do we have a desensitized populace, but they also believe you can have drawn-out arguments about who's going to pull in freefall.

Torture *is* effective for one thing, though: getting people to tell you what you want to hear. Great for prosecuting the innocent, propaganda, etc. But I don't think that's what America stands for.

Do you?

[crwtom 0]

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Hollywood is way left of center

...

They therefore play to the masses, .

The only implication I can logically derive from this is that the "masses" played to are "way left of the center".

As a "center" is a sort-of average or median this, in turn, implies that there's got to be some type of unobservable, dark matter on the right balancing the observable "masses way left of center".

Interesting concept ....

Cheers, T

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Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[Darius11 12]

Some soldiers have been given less then 5 years for murder. I don’t think the president will get any sort of punishment no matter what the outcome he will deny it and the sheep will believe what ever he says BAHHHHH BAHHHH.

I mean comeon it’s only torturing brown people it’s nothing horrible like getting a blowjob.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Channman 2]

Why do I feel like im getting my head beat into a wall here.

Movies may not be a reality, but your smart enough to know what im trying to convey. Movies are stories written by men and women conveying a topic that they must feel in their hearts is worth telling and giving the audience the message they wish to express.

The Good Guys in movies typically do not commit rape, mass murder, but do from time to time partake in drinking to much and drugging. But beating the crap out of the rappist, murderer, or drug pusher, and terriorist is a common occurance and is exceptable by the american audience.

I don't think this is the number one topic american's are concerned about today.

cheers to ya

[Guest 1010]

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As a "center" is a sort-of average or median this, in turn, implies that there's got to be some type of unobservable, dark matter on the right balancing the observable "masses way left of center".

Unless there isn't a balancing force, and the mass is moved to the left.

What has happened during the past generation is that the "center" has been pulled to the left. Evidence of this? It is all around, but a couple are that JFK would not make it past the Democratic primaries (a pro-life Catholic hawk ) much less get the nomination. Neither would Bobby Kennedy nor a Humphey in '68. With their views at that time, they'd all be Republicans in our time.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[Channman 2]

I need to get a hold of your reading list.

[Guest 1010]

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No, I’m quite serious. If Bush has been complicit in torture and there is evidence of that come to light then he could be arrested, tried and convicted ..

I'm thinking you must be a professor of law, not a practicing criminal lawyer?

First, ya need someone to arrest him. (The Secret Service might have something to say abotu that. ) Oops, first you might need a warrant from somplace, but that won't be hard. Gonna extradite him to Brussels? Or just grab him up next time he steps out of the country? "Evidence of that come to light" hmmm there may be some differences between rules of evidence and "come to light" unless you really just wish to have a trial and then execute him, in true OHCHR fashion.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[billvon 3,092]

>The Good Guys in movies typically do not commit rape, mass murder . . .

Surely you have seen westerns, Reservoir Dogs, The Matrix etc etc.

>but your smart enough to know what im trying to convey.

That public acceptance of movies means that, in general, people are OK with torture? Are you seriously proposing that?

> Movies are stories written by men and women conveying a topic that
>they must feel in their hearts is worth telling and giving the audience the
>message they wish to express.

Movies are stories written by men and women who wish to make money. That's what Hollywood is all about.

[Channman 2]

Your torturing me bill, your torturing me.

Stop this madness and agree with me already.

Cheers

[SudsyFist 0]

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Your torturing me bill, or torturing me.

Stop this madness and agree with me already.

OK, take your attention off of Bill and his cat o'nine tails for a moment. I asked you two questions which you haven't answered...

[Channman 2]

Break um down for me like

#1?

#2?

I've had a beating and can't remember your questions.

Its that a ringing in my ear or just my cell phone?

[Gawain 0]

Well said.

People should not be shedding one tear for these f**kers in Cuba or wherever. These are not random chances that they are there.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[SudsyFist 0]

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Its that a ringing in my ear or just my cell phone?

hehehehe, Speaker's Corner will do that to you.

#1:

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I'll say it again till am blue we're in it to win and if you don't like what you see you can close your eyes.

No, one of the greatest things I love about my country is that if you don't like what you see, you *can* speak up. That opportunity was bought for us with the red blood of true patriots.

Why don't you support that, I wonder?

#2

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Torture *is* effective for one thing, though: getting people to tell you what you want to hear. Great for prosecuting the innocent, propaganda, etc. But I don't think that's what America stands for.

Do you?

[SudsyFist 0]

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Well said.

People should not be shedding one tear for these f**kers in Cuba or wherever. These are not random chances that they are there.

How do you feel about those kidnapped and beheaded in Iraq? Shed a tear for them? Why?

Under what conditions is barbarism against an individual justified, in your opinion? And can you stand behind your opinion as universally applicable (hint: move roles around in the situation, loved ones, etc.)?

If not, then you're guilty of hypocrisy. I know a lot of people who are just fat happy about being hypocrites, but I'm figuring you care enough to not be among them.

[JoeyRamone 0]

Not yet.

[Channman 2]

Well now, I must ponder your questions carefully. I still alittle dizzy, Bill pulled a ropeadope on me that still has me spinning. That Bill is a slippery one.

OK to your questions

#1, I support the right for descent, and descent can be a good thing only as long as it does'nt get me killed.

#2, Torture is effective for getting people to tell you what you want to hear I would agree with you. If it were me I tell you what ever it took to get you to stop. But prosecuting the innocent, propaganda, etc.,...I'm not sure, but are you implying our government is deliberatly torturing innocent folk for propaganda? I thought that only happened in China.

I believe we have approved meathods that makes someone very unconfortable such as bind body positions and limits their ability to sleep that has proven to be effective in gathering information. Some of those methods I find to be exceptable in times of war.

[SudsyFist 0]

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#1, I support the right for descent, and descent can be a good thing only as long as it does'nt get me killed.

Rock!

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But prosecuting the innocent, propaganda, etc.,...I'm not sure, but are you implying our government is deliberatly torturing innocent folk for propaganda?

Nope. I'm saying that I believe that the citizens of our country wouldn't stand for that. Ever. Blue or Red. Ass or Pachyderm.

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I believe we have approved meathods that makes someone very unconfortable such as bind body positions and limits their ability to sleep that has proven to be effective in gathering information. Some of those methods I find to be exceptable in times of war.

We've *had* approved methods for a long time now, which have been refined over time by very smart people in the Intelligence Community.

What concerns me, however, is that knee-jerk reactions from gun-slinging political appointees can override what's been determined to be effective and cooperative with international relations and treaties, all in the name of appearance: looking like we're doing *more*.

Have you ever been in a job where managers made stupid changes to an efficient machine, just for the appearance of progress being made? And then when shit starts breaking down, the heat oftentimes hits the workers? This doesn't only happen in the private sector.

Setting up in Gitmo to avoid judicial oversight and sidestep domestic law, as well as creating new labels for things (an *often* used political tactic) to further avoid liability is a fucking political circus stunt to show, "Hey, look, we're gonna kick some ass! Woohoo!"

And so many people buy it.

What's so much more effective now with Gitmo and new permissions of what we can do to prisoners, versus what we had before, hmm? Talk to a veteran interrogator or two, and ask them.

[Darius11 12]

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Well said.

People should not be shedding one tear for these f**kers in Cuba or wherever. These are not random chances that they are there.

You 100% sure that every one in Cuba is guilty and we have made no mistakes?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[GTAVercetti 0]

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[reply/]You and I have a different definition of reality then. A movie is simply not reality; it's about as far as you can get from reality. Confusing entertainment with reality leads to some very bad things.

I think his point is Hollywood is full of hypocrits as they produce entertainment in direct conflict with their "public" politics.

[Wopelao 0]

Why don't you do the comparison on how those prisoners are treated to those of coalition forces or civilians when captured by these people.

Go to Iraq and ask those "interrogators" on the opposite side, and see how good the ones in Guantanamo have it in turn.

[rehmwa 2]

Like I'm even going to debate the semichrist

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Like I'm even going to debate the semichrist

that is right. You don't want none of this.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[SudsyFist 0]

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Why don't you do the comparison on how those prisoners are treated to those of coalition forces or civilians when captured by these people.

Go to Iraq and ask those "interrogators" on the opposite side, and see how good the ones in Guantanamo have it in turn.

Actually, during the invasion, I was pleasantly surprised by how our troops were treated by their regular forces. It seemed much better than what it was like in the first Gulf War, but I didn't compare the nitty gritty.

The way the insurgency operates, though, is despicable. And a bad strategy for them, at that, because it garners them nothing.

Tit for tat is a dangerous game of escalation, though, and I, for one, don't want to play. I'd rather we hold our moral ground and stick to *spirit* of the treaties to which we agreed in the first place, and show the world that their negative assumptions about our country are wrong.