kallend 2,148
Of course. This is exactly why I've been clear that I can't rule out your proposed mechanism. And maybe I can actually run a simple experiment to see whether I can make ice by adding freshwater to salt water.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
kallend 2,148
lawrocketOf course. This is exactly why I've been clear that I can't rule out your proposed mechanism. And maybe I can actually run a simple experiment to see whether I can make ice by adding freshwater to salt water.
The salt water needs to be around 28F to emulate the ocean around Antarctica, and the freshwater needs to be at 32F to emulate meltwater.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The temperature can be a large range. 28 is usually about right. The incoming water can be up to 35. I think the biggest variables would be the salinity of the ocean, volume of fresh water flow and mixing rate.
Since I'm an asshole instead of an engineer, how do I keep the salinity of the salt water fairly constant as the fresh water is being added to it - and temperature for that matter - using the kind of stuff some weekend self-identified pseudo MacGyver might have in his toolbox?
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Since I'm an asshole instead of an engineer, how do I keep the salinity of the salt water fairly constant as the fresh water is being added to it - and temperature for that matter - using the kind of stuff some weekend self-identified pseudo MacGyver might have in his toolbox?
My wife is hotter than your wife.
kallend 2,148
lawrocketThe temperature can be a large range. 28 is usually about right. The incoming water can be up to 35. I think the biggest variables would be the salinity of the ocean, volume of fresh water flow and mixing rate.
Since I'm an asshole instead of an engineer, how do I keep the salinity of the salt water fairly constant as the fresh water is being added to it - and temperature for that matter - using the kind of stuff some weekend self-identified pseudo MacGyver might have in his toolbox?
Why 35? If it's running over melting ice it should equilibrate at 32.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
When it reaches shore it'll be higher than 32 because as the ice melts and retreats it leaves exposed land, doesn't it? We have rivers out here coming from the Sierras that are up to 50 degrees 20 miles downstream. (Of course it's 70 outside when that happens).
I just got some non-iodized koshering salt.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
I just got some non-iodized koshering salt.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
kallend 2,148
lawrocketWhen it reaches shore it'll be higher than 32 because as the ice melts and retreats it leaves exposed land, doesn't it? We have rivers out here coming from the Sierras that are up to 50 degrees 20 miles downstream. (Of course it's 70 outside when that happens).
I just got some non-iodized koshering salt.
Depends on the temperature of the air and land. It isn't California.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
ChrisD 0
""In the huge area of East Antartica, the ice is mostly above sea level. The air temperature is also much lower, and the experts do not expect the ice to melt on account of rising temperatures. In this part of Antarctica, the ice sheet is actually growing as a consequence of increased snowfall. This has led some critics to question the global warming theory." "
When confronted with the facts and evidence, he runs...or just ignores the science and changes the subject...this has and is apparent from the 500+ posts this
has posted on the subject....
This is why your wasting your time, once again....
C
He picks and choeses his arguments, you literally could say night and he is going to say day...
Just another fat fuckin idiot....don't waste your time...
Never mind the fact that for the last 20,000 years this area has been considered a deseret...
It actually had to warm up to snow...
Wrap your scarma sucking lips around that one....
By the way if you want a full flush toilet you can run up to Canada and purchase one there, Kohler makes em in the USA and ships the full flush ones to CA, go figure! O'h you can purchase 1 under the customes rules, for personal use! I know your a cheep bastard, you said so yourself...
In CA you can also get your local plumbig inspector to approve a non-low flow if the low flow ones just don't work...
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."
kallend 2,148
It will be an interesting experiment.
How will you prevent mixing? On the large scale of the ocean the freshwater stays above the denser saltwater.
How will you prevent mixing? On the large scale of the ocean the freshwater stays above the denser saltwater.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
kallend 2,148
Sometimes I have a hard time figuring out what you are saying.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
kallend
It will be an interesting experiment.
How will you prevent mixing? On the large scale of the ocean the freshwater stays above the denser saltwater.
I don't know how the ocean would prevent mixing - especially since the ocean around Anarctica isn't known for being placid.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
ChrisD 0
So do I.
The key point is: "it actually had to warm up to snow..."
The ice cores prove this again and again....
The real concern is the effect that this is having on the Globe as we speak and the negative effects on the affected people in the world as we speak. I really don't understand how so many can turn a blind eye to reality that exsists today?
C
I joke and point out that Idots rule and monkeys abound in a light hearted way...
But to consistantly ignore, with a certian amount of malice and intent on a global scale the current evedence and trends,...
Well It dosen't really surprize me that some fats cats with billions to spend can influence soo many, it's the lack of understanding and the fact that like little parrots so many spead ignorance with the voracity that they do that is the concerning trend!
"I don't know how the ocean would prevent mixing - especially since the ocean around Anarctica isn't known for being placid."
This statement is like holding up a sign.
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."
[Reply]The key point is: "it actually had to warm up to snow..."
Yes. Because at -40 there isn't anything left to precipitate.
[Reply]"I don't know how the ocean would prevent mixing - especially since the ocean around Anarctica isn't known for being placid."
This statement is like holding up a sign.
The sign being "there is some stuff here I do not understand and I'm looking for suggestions." Yes - that is the sign. I understand that my statement of ignorance shall be construed as evidence of my ignorance. Your response to my sign is also like holding a sign - never ask questions.
You're a chemist, right? So help he here - how do I add fresg water to salt water and not have them mix? I've always struggled with miscible fluids mixinng. So any suggestions? Yes - I am saying that I don't know how to make walter and saltwater act like water and oil. If there is an exception to diffusion in Antarctica I'd be interested to know about it.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
turtlespeed 226
ChrisDSo do I.
The key point is: "it actually had to warm up to snow..."
The ice cores prove this again and again....
The real concern is the effect that this is having on the Globe as we speak and the negative effects on the affected people in the world as we speak. I really don't understand how so many can turn a blind eye to reality that exsists today?
C
I joke and point out that Idots rule and monkeys abound in a light hearted way...
But to consistantly ignore, with a certian amount of malice and intent on a global scale the current evedence and trends,...
Well It dosen't really surprize me that some fats cats with billions to spend can influence soo many, it's the lack of understanding and the fact that like little parrots so many spead ignorance with the voracity that they do that is the concerning trend!
"I don't know how the ocean would prevent mixing - especially since the ocean around Anarctica isn't known for being placid."
This statement is like holding up a sign.
You are overreacting to what you believe the consequences are and will be.
This has happened before.
It will happen again.
The worst that we might have done is sped the process up a bit.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
billvon 3,116
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>Sometimes I have a hard time figuring out what you are saying.
Something about toilets.
Something about toilets.
kallend 2,148
billvon>Sometimes I have a hard time figuring out what you are saying.
Something about toilets.
Oh... Thanks.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
RobertMBlevinsWho said Earth's climate is uniform and warming will have the same results in all places at the same time?
Nobody. What used to be "global warming" got changed to "global climate change" to an emphasis on "polar amplification" to "Arctic sea ice loss."
***You'd just better hope the North Atlantic current doesn't stop due to freshening of the sea water by melting Arctic ice. This is a distinct possibility with repercussions you might not imagine.
I'm not exactly worried considering that the mid-Atlantic rift is a much greater threat to it than freshwater. And yes, I can imagine the effects because that fine documentary "The Day After Tomorrow" showed the effects of it.
[***]Check your NASA sat photos for evidence. Greenland, for example. Or the fact that the Canadians have now had to monitor the new Northwest Passage that appears in summertime. It's in that place with all the little islands north of the Canadian mainland.
Check out this site. http://www.arctic.io/ Then go here: http://www.arctic.io/observations/
I followed your advice and, yes, the Northwest Passage looks like it would be really easily navigable if not for all that ice in the way. That's the problem with the internet - we have sites that allow real time verification. There's about 7 weeks left in the melt season.
QuoteYou can save thousands of kilometers by going that way if you are delivering cargo between Western Europe and Asia these days.
These days? No. You can't. I've shown it.
QuoteIf you don't believe that, then consider the increasing number of deadly storms that require fund requests from the public via the Red Cross or the media,
US Hurricane landfalls are less frequent over the last five years than at any other time in US history. We haven't had a Cat. 5 since Andrew - over twenty years ago. Tornadoes are less frequenty now even though we have radar that detects more of them (no, "The Wizard of Oz" was not fuuristic science fiction that predicted the existence of tornadoes). We have more people, more population, more building, more infrastructure and more communications and inflation. Ergo, more damage frommore storms (check out the 1938 Long Island Express and imagine what that would do today!).
Quoteor the wildfires that have become rampant and no longer have a 'fire season'.
You have a short memory. You don't remember things like the 1910 tristate wildfire that was 3 MILLION acres. Interestingly, it started with a drought (yes, they had those even back before CO2 was at 400). That fire burned as fires throughout history have - it kept going until it ran out of fuel or was extinguished by rain and snow.
What's the difference today? We've spent the last century putting out fires - because the wildfires were so destructive that we decided to put them all out. We got really good at putting them out. Now we keep building communities in forests that historically catch fire every decade. Then it burns and causes millions of dollars in damage. And we say, "this is so much worse. Why, we can even see it on television now.
Now 100 years of fuel actually DOES make things worse. Add a few thousand cabins to that and we have destruction. Back in the day, fires burned down whole towns. Now they burn down subdivisions.
QuoteThey just come whenever they want, and take lives and property with them.
Mind telling me how this is different from the past?
***'Houston...we have a problem...'
The actual quote is "Houston, we've had a problem." Another memory lost through distortion of actual fact.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
If you said, "oh my God! The nights are getting longer but the nights are getting hotter" I'd say, "that's called the beginning of summer and it happens."
The problem is when I post the scientific evidence that is in direct contravention of your statement. Now I'm dangerous because I fight rhetoric with research. Fact - Antarctic sea ice is increasing. It's been above normal every day for over a year.
Kallend attributes it to melting continental ice refreezing in very cold low albedo sea water. I haven't seen the research to suggest this to be the case. I also note that the stated problem with open water is that it absorbs so much solar heat, which would thereby mean the water is warmer. We also don't see this around melting Greenland, do we? Nope. In the Arctic ice-free means ocean water sucking up heat.
Kallend knows that it's not how sea ice forms. Sea ice forms with very cold air temperature freezing the surface of the ocean (versus the sheet ice, which is formed by precipitation. If it's warm enough to melt the ice on land (with its high albedo) then the sea ice isn't going to form. In most cases. Again, I'd be interested in seeing the research showing that the missing heat that is alleged to be in the oceans is actually missing from the oceans.
Ps - it does bring an intriguing possibility. Could the decreasing Arctic sea ice be the result of excess salination of the Arctic waters? (Or perhaps due to all the shipping traffic through the Northwest Passage that Chris was talking about (I thought O'Hare was busy - you should see the bottleneck of ships south of Devon Island!)
Pps - about denial. No, I do not deny things such as "Arctic ice is decreasing" or "the glaciers of Kilimanjaro are sublimating." I will dispute "melting" as studies out there suggest that land use is causing a decrease in percipitation. (Also - if you take a couple of hours to read you'll also understand two things: (1) tropical glaciers are different beasts from temperate and polar glaciers; and (2) greenhouse gas warming in the tropics is contrary to "polar amplification" as predicted in AGW theory. I've written about these subjects in the past.
EVEN if the ocean is warmed on account of its albedo, it can STILL be below the freezing point of run-off water. I have already posted the phase diagram that shows this.
www.nature.com/news/global-warming-expands-antarctic-sea-ice-1.12709
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.