Bill Bennett Remarks

[SudsyFist 0]

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So why are they making more calls? any ideas?

This is just speculation here, but I figure one of the reasons to consider is that if the crime is violent, then there is a higher chance of its being reported, regardless of the neighborhood in which the crime took place. Although I can't say I have empirical evidence to back it up, I'm pretty sure more incidents of *violent* crime are actually occurring in these areas.

As far as drug use and distribution, that's an activity which goes largely unreported, because all the participants are usually knowingly and willingly engaged in the crime. There are other crimes you can add to that, such as gambling and prostitution, which are also extremely prolific in some of these affluent neighborhoods, perhaps much moreso (think cashflow) than in the low-income areas. But you don't see anyone calling 911 to report a $2,500 escort who gave a horrible blowjob.

[rehmwa 2]

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But you don't see anyone calling 911 to report a $2,500 escort who gave a horrible blowjob.

Which would be a horrible crime, don't you think?

So then is your contention that "black crime" is more violent crime, whereas "white crime" is defined by 'no-victim' crimes of the extremely wealthy - but still in equal proportions. Thus the outrage isn't disproportionate punishment by race, but disproportionate punishment between type of criminal activity.

Or, do you think some people consider that a person who uses a $2500 prostitute should get the same jail sentence as a knife murderer? (by that I mean someone who murders using a knife, not someone who murders knives)

1 - I don't think that's what you mean. But even so,
2 - Wealth levels isn't a race issue, it's a class issue.
3 - Even if true, don't you want to imprison violent criminals before 'white collar' criminals
4 - I don't think 'white collar' = 'white skin', but that seems to be the stereotype we're wallowing in right now.

I think we have to get away from corrolation arguments and back to causation discussions. Even though emotionally charged arguments based on subjective positions are always fun to watch.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SudsyFist 0]

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1 - I don't think that's what you mean. But even so,
2 - Wealth levels isn't a race issue, it's a class issue.

That's more along the lines of what I was thinking, but I don't have enough evidence to be certain. Kinda like the analogy I presented earlier, perhaps race is more of a circumstantial commonality among convicts, and we're overlooking other factors that are much more significant.

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3 - Even if true, don't you want to imprison violent criminals before 'white collar' criminals

On one hand, absolutely, but on the other hand, I think that attitude fosters a disregard of "white collar" criminal law. Frankly, I think the bulk of our law isn't really taken seriously, and our methods of enforcement have a lot to do with it.

Take speed limits here in SoCal for example. Posted limit is 65, but everyone goes 80; CHP won't give you a second look unless you're over 75.

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I think we have to get away from corrolation arguments and back to causation discussions.

Ah, a voice of reason.

[rehmwa 2]

We're on the same page.

Strangely, Minnesota is looking to raise the speed limit 5 MPH. But they also say they will now strictly enforce it.

The intent is to net out to a more defined law. I'm assuming in practice it will still just be a mean shift in people's driving habit of +5 with no different consequences. Depends on the patrolmen though, don't it?

But you gotta admire them for trying to take the high road.

I think the main thing is we need to show a bit more outrage about the bad blowjob.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnRich 4]

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So you're saying that black criminals are more stupid than white criminals, causing blacks to be caught and arrested more often.

How on Earth do you arrive at that conclusion? And no, that is not what I'm saying at all. Not at all.

Okay, follow along. You seem to presume that blacks commit crime at the same rate as whites, and that the only reason they are arrested and convicted more often is because of racist cops and judges. So, if your theory is true, then blacks must be more stupid, because they're getting caught more often than whites, even though they commit the same number of crimes.

See how silly your theory is?

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The lengths to which you guys will go to avoid admitting the truth about black crime, is simply amazing. Sheesh.

To what truth are you referring?

The truth that blacks commit crimes at a much higher rate than whites. It's not a racist conspiracy. It's the truth.

[JohnRich 4]

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So far the only ones saying anything about blacks being more criminal (or stupider) are you and Ron.

Ahem. You omitted the FBI, which also says this, and they are the experts on crime statistics in America. So Ron and I are in good company.

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Crimes reported are a reflection of crimes committed.

No they're not. They are a reflection of lawbreakers caught. Do you really think that if 300 people are given speeding tickets on a rural Texas highway in a month, that only 300 people were actually speeding?

What I meant was that crimes reported are a subset of crimes committed. And I'm sure there is a ratio there. So that if x number of crimes are reported, then that is an indication that x-times-some-ratio is the larger number that were actually committed.

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Here's a thought experiment. Put one cop in a city of 200,000. Put 200 cops in a nearby city of 200,000. At the end of the month, add up arrests in both cities. The 200 cops will, in all likelihood, arrest more people than the one cop. Does that mean that the crime rate is much lower in the first city?

So you're suggesting, once again, that blacks and whites really commit crimes at the same rate, but the cops put more boots on the ground in black neighborhoods to enforce the law, while ignoring white neighborhoods? There's that evil conspiracy again!

I think cops put more patrols where crime reports show that most crime is occuring. The dog is wagging the tail, not the tail wagging the dog. I don't think the police chief says; "You know what, lets patrol more black neighborhoods this month, because I just don't trust them darkies." It's more likely; "Last month we had twice as much crime in this neighborhood as elsewhere, so let's put more patrols in that area."

[JohnRich 4]

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>Everyone seems to ignore that the reason might just be that one
> race commits more crimes. The reason could be a combination of
> social and economic reasons....

You've almost got it! People commit crimes for many reasons. Those reasons may be related to race, social OR economic reasons. They may be crazy. It may be influenced by their physical location, or education, or abuse they have suffered at the hands of others. An open minded person might consider all of these possibilities. A racist looks at race.

I don't think anyone, least not me, is saying that blacks commit more crime just because their skin is black. Of course not. There are many reasons, like you say; economics, culture, and so on. Nevertheless, these crime-prone factors are concentrated more greatly amongst blacks.

I'm always struck by the movies listed in the TV schedule on the BET Black Entertainment Television channel. They involve a lot of movies about gangs and drugs, like that is something universally common to blacks. I don't buy it, but there seems to be some emphasis on that. Same thing with rap music. We don't see country musicians singing songs about gang-banging, shooting cops and pimping whores... There's clearly a culture difference between country cowboys and inner-city blacks, and it's reflected in crime and violence.

[JohnRich 4]

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Get a rope! Find a tree! Let's hang the bastard!

__________________________________________________

So you are all for racial lynchings?
That's just great Mr. Rich.
You sound like a Texas yahoo!

[SudsyFist 0]

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You seem to presume that blacks commit crime at the same rate as whites

I am so sorry if I somehow gave you that impression, because it's not at all what I was saying. What I *am* saying is that we don't know whether blacks commit crime at the same rate as whites, because we have no way to know.

That being said, I've stated in this thread that I believe that blacks have a higher rate (per capita) of *violent* crimes than whites, because the data from which to deduce *that* conclusion are much less skewed (still skewed, though) than that regarding criminal acts in general.

Does that help clear things up?

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and that the only reason they are arrested and convicted more often is because of racist cops and judges.

Never said anything remotely of the sort. Sorry, again, if somehow I implied that.

You say, "only reason." I say, "lots and lots of reasons most of us are not even bothering to look at right now." Just like how people were steadfast in their belief that the Sun rotated around the Earth some time ago: they just didn't bother to look deeper and simply got stubborn with what seemed so obvious to them (and what everyone else around them thought).

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So, if your theory is true, then blacks must be more stupid, because they're getting caught more often than whites, even though they commit the same number of crimes.

See how silly your theory is?

It's not my theory at all, but I agree that would be silly!

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The truth that blacks commit crimes at a much higher rate than whites.

You presented evidence to support your claim, and I disputed the applicability (not the authenticity) of your evidence to your claim: arrest and conviction statistics no more represent the rate at which crimes are committed than divorce statistics represent the rate of marital infidelity.

Sure, they're related, and I'll totally give you that. But you absolutely cannot rely on one statistic to proportionally represent the other.

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It's not a racist conspiracy. It's the truth.

You keep bringing up this racist conspiracy stuff, and you really have me wondering why.

John, I'm going to ask you a serious, tough question here, and I'm not trying to rile you up; I'm honestly trying to better understand where you're coming from, so that we're on the same sheet of music:

How would you react if your daughter brought home from college a black man, with whom she had obviously been having sex, to meet you and the family? How would your reaction differ if the only other difference was that he was white?

Try to open your heart and honestly ponder this question. Regardless of your answer, I promise not to berate you or think any less of you. Cool?

[JohnRich 4]

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That being said, I've stated in this thread that I believe that blacks have a higher rate (per capita) of *violent* crimes than whites, because the data from which to deduce *that* conclusion are much less skewed (still skewed, though) than that regarding criminal acts in general.

That's why I added the murder statistics, by race, much earlier in this thread, to try and focus on more reliable statistics, and avoid all this bloviating about the more trivial crimes and how race might drive those arrests upward. But even for murder, blacks look really bad. So the principle remains.

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How would you react if your daughter brought home from college a black man, with whom she had obviously been having sex, to meet you and the family? How would your reaction differ if the only other difference was that he was white?

If you're asking me if I'm racist, the answer is a resounding "no". As I already said earlier in this thread, just because I speak the truth about crime statistics which make blacks look bad, does not mean that I hate blacks. The truth is just the truth. And we should be able to discuss the truth without others claiming that those who bring it up are racists. (I'm not accusing you of this.) And that's what we see happening with Bill Bennett's remarks.

[Wopelao 0]

Why are you implying that John is racist? When you say "We Don't know", you should speak for yourself.

You have serious doubts of crime statistics it is not John's fault, as you are trying to get an absolute value or single explanation as to why are blacks more prone for indictments/sentencing in violent offenses than whites.

One of the reasons most likely is poverty and lack of education, but definitely the Rap-gang movement is not helping things along. Thugs are thugs no matter what race color or creed, and if you had paid more attention to that Bill Bennett said, then you would not be having this discussion.

[billvon 3,120]

>What I meant was that crimes reported are a subset of crimes
>committed.

Agreed there.

>And I'm sure there is a ratio there.

Also agreed. But as in Sanjay's example, that ratio varies very widely.

>So you're suggesting, once again, that blacks and whites really
>commit crimes at the same rate, but the cops put more boots on the
> ground in black neighborhoods to enforce the law, while ignoring
> white neighborhoods? There's that evil conspiracy again!

??? No, I'm not suggesting that. Once again, put a speed trap on interstate A and no speed trap on interstate B. Lo and behold, you will discover you pull more people over on interstate A than on interstate B.

Now, if this experiment was done by Speaker's Corner types, immediately one side would start arguing "this PROVES my point that Interstate A drivers are much more reckless and prone to be criminals!" The other side would start arguing "It proves that they speed at exactly the same ratio!" A more reasonable person might decide that you really _can't_ conclude anything from the above experiment. A might have more real speeders, or B might have more real speeders. The experiment really doesn't tell you anything about who speeds more, because it's so biased.

>I think cops put more patrols where crime reports show that most crime is occuring.

Or where they get the most complaints from people (and people don't complain in direct relation to crime rates.) Or cops cruise one neighborhood because their intuition (right or wrong) tells them to keep an eye out. Again, you can't conclude that crimes occur more often where cops are, for about five reasons.

>I'm always struck by the movies listed in the TV schedule on the
>BET Black Entertainment Television channel. They involve a lot of
>movies about gangs and drugs . . .

I think you may be reading a bit selectively. Let's check out today's BET lineup and HBO's lineup:

BET:

6:00AM BET's Morning Inspiration with Brother Gerard
9:00AM The Wayans Bros. Pop Moves In
9:30AM The Wayans Bros. Afro Cab
10:00AM The Jamie Foxx Show Kiss & Tell
10:30AM The Jamie Foxx Show Seems Like Old Times
11:00AM 106 & Park (interviews and music videos)
12:30PM BET.com Countdown (videos)
1:00PM BET Now Video Block
3:00PM The Center (entertainment news)
4:00PM Rap City Watch the latest and hottest rap videos.
5:00PM Road Show (Reality show)
6:00PM 106 & Park
7:30PM BET Style (celeb fashion)
8:00PM Ultimate Hustler (reality show about music business)
9:00PM 2005 Comedy Awards
11:00PM In Living Color - Jheri's Kids
11:30PM In Living Color - Don King: The Early Years
12:00AM The Jamie Foxx Show

HBO prime time:

7pm Real Sports
8pm Inside the NFL
9:30pm Methadonia (documentary on methadone clinics)
10:30pm Curb your enthusiasm (comedy)
11pm Sex Inspectors

From that one might conclude that HBO watchers were the drug users and sex addicts.

>Same thing with rap music. We don't see country musicians singing
>songs about gang-banging, shooting cops and pimping whores...

But country singers do sing about losing their partners quite often. Can we conclude therefore that country singers cheat on their wives/husbands more often than any other group? I don't think you can conclude that, any more than you can conclude that a song about killing means they want to kill.

[rehmwa 2]

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if your theory is true, then blacks must be more stupid, because they're getting caught more often than whites, even though they commit the same number of crimes.

See how silly your theory is?

HA - now, if someone take the red part away, and then you get castigated, that's exactly what happened to Bennett. It's slightly less sneaky than Dowdisms, but pretty well the same concept.

See how dangerous that tactic is in today's world?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SudsyFist 0]

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That's why I added the murder statistics, by race, much earlier in this thread, to try and focus on more reliable statistics, and avoid all this bloviating about the more trivial crimes and how race might drive those arrests upward. But even for murder, blacks look really bad. So the principle remains.

And that's why I believe that blacks have a higher rate of *violent* crime. Not 100% certain, because there's still some possibility of skew, but enough for me to believe so. I'm right there with you.

But as I've also tried to point out earlier, I think it's important to note that this might be circumstantial, and there may be more significant factors to point out than this. See what I posted upthread to give you an idea what I mean:

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Here's something else to consider. I'm shooting from the hip with no stats, but just using the concept as an example, so please take this with a grain of salt. Someone could say that in the last year, significantly more Muslims died at the hands of Christians than Christians died at the hands of Muslims. Let's just assume that this is true for a moment. Now, a statement like this is very likely to stir up some bias against Christians as a whole, isn't it?

Now let's say we look into it more. Ah, yes, we see military action. Not between Christians and Muslims in general, but between very specific countries. So, now that we spent more time digging into the details, we can refine the statement a bit, can't we? And I'd bet that the revised statement wouldn't vilify Christians in general near as much as the original one did.

Do you get where I'm going with this? Do you think there might be some other factors more worthy than race to measure in commonality amongst these violent criminals to establish a trend, perhaps making the race commonality more circumstantial?

See how much bigger this can get in just a couple of minutes of consideration?

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If you're asking me if I'm racist, the answer is a resounding "no".

No, that's not what I was asking. I was asking a very specific question, the answer to which will help me better understand your definition of racism, as well as better understand how you feel about something.

If you could please answer the question directly, I'd be much appreciative.

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I speak the truth about crime statistics which make blacks look bad, does not mean that I hate blacks. The truth is just the truth.

I agree with the truth of your crime statistics, and I haven't even gone to the trouble of verifying them: I trust you on that. I don't, however, agree with your *conclusions* about those statistics, because of what I described in my previous post.

Please differentiate between the two: the statistics, and your conclusions about the statistics.

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And we should be able to discuss the truth without others claiming that those who bring it up are racists. (I'm not accusing you of this.) And that's what we see happening with Bill Bennett's remarks.

I can see the truth behind his remarks, and I can also see how crass they were. Believe me, I know crass. See my beaver modeling post in Bonfire.

I also can see, however, how someone can interpret his remarks as indicative of his being racist. And for someone in his position, he should know better, regardless of whether he is racist or not.

See? It's helpful to be able to see other people's perspectives, isn't it? That's precisely why I brought up this slight change to his quote:

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"If you wanted to reduce hate crimes against minorities, you could, if that was your sole purpose, you could kill every white baby and child in the South, and your hate crime rate would go down."

Do you react differently to my version than Bennett's? If so, how?

[JohnRich 4]

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Now, a statement like this is very likely to stir up some bias against Christians as a whole, isn't it?

So, now that we spent more time digging into the details, we can refine the statement a bit, can't we?

Do you get where I'm going with this?

See how much bigger this can get in just a couple of minutes of consideration?

If you could please answer the question directly, I'd be much appreciative.

Please differentiate between the two: the statistics, and your conclusions about the statistics.

See? It's helpful to be able to see other people's perspectives, isn't it?

Do you react differently to my version than Bennett's? If so, how?

You assign too much homework!

[SudsyFist 0]

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You assign too much homework!

But doesn't it help that most of 'em are yes/no questions?