Bill Bennett Remarks

[Ron 10]

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As a universal statement, that is incorrect, and often leads to a binary (0 or 1) view on things, which is a shame.

I didn't create it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

Although it seems true on most parts.

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Take, for example, incident reports. The simplest answer to the majority of the, "Why did this happen?" questions is, "the jumper fucked up." If that's all we went by, though, we would never learn a damn thing from their mistakes, now would we?

And by drilling down to the root cause...If it was a low turn it might be aiming for a gate, uncurrent ect. But in both those cases the jumper STILL messed up. While you may not like that answer and it can be more detailed, it is correct to say the jumper messed up.

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Why is it that I'm probably more likely to get caught if I'm selling rock in Compton than if I'm selling blow in Hollywood Hills?

Simple the users in Compton are more likely to be commiting more than one crime. The Hollywood Hills folks are most likely only doing the drugs.

Drugs alone is not the most common reason people get arrested. They are normally doing something else illegal and that draws the attention to them.

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Like I said, some questions do not have simple answers, and I'd call trying to shoehorn a simple answer to such a complex question a complete injustice. In this case, that includes both the, "Cuz the MAN is keeping is down," and the, "Blacks just commit more crimes," types of responses. There's more to it than that, and I think people should open their eyes just a bit more to see exactly that.

There is more to this than either simple statment. However we have evidence that blacks commit more violent crimes. Now that evidence may be skewed, but it is certainly better than just assuming that the "Man" is out to get them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SudsyFist 0]

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So you're saying that black criminals are more stupid than white criminals, causing blacks to be caught and arrested more often.

How on Earth do you arrive at that conclusion? And no, that is not what I'm saying at all. Not at all.

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Crimes reported are a reflection of crimes committed.

Reflection? What does that mean? If you're stating that there's a relationship, then I'll agree with you. But if you try to imply that there's anything resembling a constant proportion between the two, that happens to span geographies, political boundaries, and cultures, then I'll vehemently disagree with you.

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And I suppose you want to suggest yet another conspiracy,

You suppose wrong. Please go back and read what I wrote; I was pretty explicit about my point.

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The lengths to which you guys will go to avoid admitting the truth about black crime, is simply amazing. Sheesh.

To what truth are you referring? I've got absolutely no problems with the truth, man, but I *do* have problems with people using gappy logic, narrow-mindedness, and short-sightedness to come up with easy-to-digest reasons for said truth.

[kallend 2,150]

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As a universal statement, that is incorrect, and often leads to a binary (0 or 1) view on things, which is a shame.

I didn't create it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

Although it seems true on most parts.

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Take, for example, incident reports. The simplest answer to the majority of the, "Why did this happen?" questions is, "the jumper fucked up." If that's all we went by, though, we would never learn a damn thing from their mistakes, now would we?

And by drilling down to the root cause...If it was a low turn it might be aiming for a gate, uncurrent ect. But in both those cases the jumper STILL messed up. While you may not like that answer and it can be more detailed, it is correct to say the jumper messed up.

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Why is it that I'm probably more likely to get caught if I'm selling rock in Compton than if I'm selling blow in Hollywood Hills?

Simple the users in Compton are more likely to be commiting more than one crime. The Hollywood Hills folks are most likely only doing the drugs.

Drugs alone is not the most common reason people get arrested. They are normally doing something else illegal and that draws the attention to them.

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Like I said, some questions do not have simple answers, and I'd call trying to shoehorn a simple answer to such a complex question a complete injustice. In this case, that includes both the, "Cuz the MAN is keeping is down," and the, "Blacks just commit more crimes," types of responses. There's more to it than that, and I think people should open their eyes just a bit more to see exactly that.

There is more to this than either simple statment. However we have evidence that blacks commit more violent crimes. Now that evidence may be skewed, but it is certainly better than just assuming that the "Man" is out to get them.

When an independent review of convictions was made in Illinois it turned out the "the man" aka Commander John Burge, was indeed out to get them. Had to release a bunch of folks from death row, even.

How many other states have made independent reviews?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,120]

>So you're saying that black criminals are more stupid than white
>criminals, causing blacks to be caught and arrested more often.

No, he didn't say that. So far the only ones saying anything about blacks being more criminal (or stupider) are you and Ron (and Bennett.)

>Crimes reported are a reflection of crimes committed.

No they're not. They are a reflection of lawbreakers caught. Do you really think that if 300 people are given speeding tickets on a rural Texas highway in a month, that only 300 people were actually speeding?

Here's a thought experiment. Put one cop in a city of 200,000. Put 200 cops in a nearby city of 200,000. At the end of the month, add up arrests in both cities. The 200 cops will, in all likelihood, arrest more people than the one cop. Does that mean that the crime rate is much lower in the first city?

[Ron 10]

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No, he didn't say that. So far the only ones saying anything about blacks being more criminal (or stupider) are you and Ron (and Bennett.)

No what he (and you) are saying is that "The Man" is after blacks and that is the only reason that there are more blacks in prison than whites.

Everyone seems to ignore that the reason might just be that one race commits more crimes. The reason could be a combination of social and economic reasons....But you guys would rather just claim its a big conspiracy and lable anyone that does not agree as racist.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SudsyFist 0]

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I didn't create it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

Although it seems true on most parts.

I'll quote from your reference:

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In the spirit of Occam's Razor itself, the rule is sometimes stated as:

The simplest explanation is usually the best.

This is an over-simplification, or at least a little misleading.

And *that's* exactly what I was saying about your statement. Good on you for posting references, and for being a Wikipedia user.

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And by drilling down to the root cause...If it was a low turn it might be aiming for a gate, uncurrent ect. But in both those cases the jumper STILL messed up. While you may not like that answer and it can be more detailed, it is correct to say the jumper messed up.

Good point in that case. But there are other cases, however, in which we could easily assume jumper error if we didn't bother to look into other causal factors that came into play. That's all I'm saying: let's not oversimplify for the sake of simplicity; it'll bite us in the ass when we assume wrong.

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Simple the users in Compton are more likely to be commiting more than one crime. The Hollywood Hills folks are most likely only doing the drugs.

I dispute that. I'd be more with you if you said that *violent* crime is more likely to be committed in Compton, as violent crime has a much greater likelihood of being reported in one way or another (victim, witness, family member, hospital staff, etc.), and a significantly greater percentage of violent crime *is* reported in that area; but we just can't measure the committing of crimes in general, nor should we assume numbers and comparisons in that regard.

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Drugs alone is not the most common reason people get arrested. They are normally doing something else illegal and that draws the attention to them.

I dispute that, too. In certain places, drawing attention to yourself is simply walking down the street, standing somewhere for a while, or any other relatively benign activity. Those places happen to be low-income minority neighborhoods, and I speak from personal experience.

I don't, nor have I ever, used drugs. If I was, however, in possession, I'd have been more likely to get picked up for it in one of those neighborhoods than an affluent one whilst engaged in the exact same, perfectly legal behavior: no other crime than the possession.

Like I said, there are more facets to explore. It's easy to throw one's (DISCLAIMER: not anyone in particular) hands up and say, "These damn niggers are just more criminal than we are, and that's just the truth!" But what is that kind of response, exactly, and how much credence should we give to it?

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However we have evidence that blacks commit more violent crimes. Now that evidence may be skewed, but it is certainly better than just assuming that the "Man" is out to get them.

I'm with you on the evidence of blacks committing more *violent* crimes -- now we're getting somewhere. And good on your for accepting that the evidence may be skewed. But...

Are we required to make an assumption based on potentially skewed evidence? What is wrong with just saying that there isn't enough information at this point to draw a conclusion? Even chiming in *an opinion* based on what info one has, but acknowledging the uncertainty? Is it just a lack of humility, or is that too simple?


Here's something else to consider. I'm shooting from the hip with no stats, but just using the concept as an example, so please take this with a grain of salt. Someone could say that in the last year, significantly more Muslims died at the hands of Christians than Christians died at the hands of Muslims. Let's just assume that this is true for a moment. Now, a statement like this is very likely to stir up some bias against Christians as a whole, isn't it?

Now let's say we look into it more. Ah, yes, we see military action. Not between Christians and Muslims in general, but between very specific countries. So, now that we spent more time digging into the details, we can refine the statement a bit, can't we? And I'd bet that the revised statement wouldn't vilify Christians in general near as much as the original one did.

Do you get where I'm going with this? Do you think there might be some other factors more worthy than race to measure in commonality amongst these violent criminals to establish a trend, perhaps making the race commonality more circumstantial?

See how much bigger this can get in just a couple of minutes of consideration?

[SudsyFist 0]

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No what he (and you) are saying is that "The Man" is after blacks.

Dude, where did I say that? Where did I even *imply* that?

EDIT: Tag cleanup.

[billvon 3,120]

>Everyone seems to ignore that the reason might just be that one
> race commits more crimes. The reason could be a combination of
> social and economic reasons....

You've almost got it! People commit crimes for many reasons. Those reasons may be related to race, social OR economic reasons. They may be crazy. It may be influenced by their physical location, or education, or abuse they have suffered at the hands of others. An open minded person might consider all of these possibilities. A racist looks at race.

[Ron 10]

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Good point in that case. But there are other cases, however, in which we could easily assume jumper error if we didn't bother to look into other causal factors that came into play. That's all I'm saying: let's not oversimplify for the sake of simplicity; it'll bite us in the ass when we assume wrong.

Oh I agree that first looks can be wrong, and I even agree that without further info a good conclusion can not be made. However, once you have enough good info, all that happens after that is just solidifying a position.

A skydiver who bounces in most cases did in fact screw up. The reasons are important in some cases, but in many just knowing you have to pay attention and not get lazy will save lives.

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I dispute that. I'd be more with you if you said that *violent* crime is more likely to be committed in Compton, as violent crime has a much greater likelihood of being reported in one way or another (victim, witness, family member, hospital staff, etc.), and a significantly greater percentage of violent crime *is* reported in that area; but we just can't measure the committing of crimes in general, nor should we assume numbers and comparisons in that regard.

Violent crime is more likely to be reported and REPORTS are going to draw more attention.

So how many reports of crime do you think there are in Hollywood Hills vs Compton?

The area that has more reports will have more arrests. If that area is largely one race, then that one race will have more arrests and there will be more of that race in prison.

THAT was my point. Instead of thinking it was a conspiricy to get the black man, I can see how more crimes are reported in some communities over others.

Hey I dont care who smokes what, but I do care about violent crime.

BTW the issue here is Bennet and his stupid remark...Which I have already said was stupid of him.

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Are we required to make an assumption based on potentially skewed evidence?

ALL evidence is potentailly skewed. We all look at things in our own frame of reference.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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You've almost got it!

No, you almost have it....When you admit that whites are not out to get the blacks...Then we might have something...But you seem to play the race card all the time.

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A racist looks at race

And so do you. You claim that the whites are out to get the blacks....Thats also racism.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,120]

>When you admit that whites are not out to get the blacks...

??? I'm white. I'm not out to get any blacks. What are you talking about?

[Ron 10]

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Dude, where did I say that? Where did I even *imply* that?

Right here:

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I dispute that, too. In certain places, drawing attention to yourself is simply walking down the street, standing somewhere for a while, or any other relatively benign activity. Those places happen to be low-income minority neighborhoods, and I speak from personal experience.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SudsyFist 0]

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Oh I agree that first looks can be wrong, and I even agree that without further info a good conclusion can not be made.

Woohoo!

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However, once you have enough good info, all that happens after that is just solidifying a position.

As long as we're conscientious enough to determine what exactly is "enough good info."

I'm sure people thought they had enough good info to know that the Earth was at the center of the universe at some point, but what happened after that only eroded their position. Among our many weaknesses as humans is our vanity.

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Violent crime is more likely to be reported and REPORTS are going to draw more attention.

So how many reports of crime do you think there are in Hollywood Hills vs Compton?

The area that has more reports will have more arrests. If that area is largely one race, then that one race will have more arrests and there will be more of that race in prison.

Ron, you're so on here, I'm getting a boner.

I'd say that there are more factors to consider in what causes more arrests (greater law enforcement presence, for example), but all in all, I agree.

And your conclusion is spot on. It's other conclusions some people try to derive from this ("blacks are more criminal," etc.) with which I take issue.

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THAT was my point. Instead of thinking it was a conspiricy to get the black man, I can see how more crimes are reported in some communities over others.

Rock on!

[SudsyFist 0]

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Dude, where did I say that? Where did I even *imply* that?

Right here:

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I dispute that, too. In certain places, drawing attention to yourself is simply walking down the street, standing somewhere for a while, or any other relatively benign activity. Those places happen to be low-income minority neighborhoods, and I speak from personal experience.

I was talking about the "certain places" themselves: the neighborhoods. Being *there* versus being black (or brown or yellow or red or purple or a rainbow of fruit flavors, for that matter).

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

[waltappel 1]

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>When you admit that whites are not out to get the blacks...

??? I'm white. I'm not out to get any blacks. What are you talking about?

Bill, you're a smart guy. I'm sure you know *exactly* what he is talking about. There is an informal, but widespread double standard in this country that holds even a glimmer of racism by a white person to be the crime of the century, yet has little negative to say about black racism.

I don't think it's arguable at all that a victim mentality exists among many black people in the US and the victimizer is considered to be "Whitey". I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there are some people out there that would consider you to be Whitey.

Remeber that stupid comment a few years back by the New York City council member, Charles Barron?

"You know, some days I get so frustrated I just want to go up to the closest white person and say, 'You can't understand this, it's a black thing,' and then slap him, just for my mental health."

The guy rightfully got a lot of negative attention, but unfortunately most similar sentiment is more subtle. Reading between the lines, the "Whitey is keeping the black man down" message has been in the liberal media news for a long time and sometimes it gets really, really old.

Walt

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I would prefer you look at violent crimes that affect others, not some drug user.

I agree. The drugs are inconsequential. But drug crimes far outnumber murder in the prisons. To be objective, we have to look at the whole picture. And if you include drug offenders, there is a huge racial injustice.

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The violent crime numbers show clearly that a smaller percentage of the population (blacks) commit the most violent crimes

My hypothesis, although I haven't done the math, is that the violent crime rate by race will be very similar to the poverty by race.

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As for selective sentancing....Well the numbers don't take into account priors.

If the law is unjust the first time, it's going to be unjust the second time as well.

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Who would you send to jail:
a) A guy busted for having 3 joints in his car.
b) A guy that was busted for the same three joints, but has a rap sheet?

There is something inherently wrong when a self proclaimed free country sends anyone to jail for having three joints. People do not smoke pot and get violent. How is society better off by spending several man hours, at taxpayer expense, for using an entheogen that is generally known to make people calm and mellow?

We are rarely, if ever faced with an A or B situation. There is nearly always another option.

[BetsyJ47 0]

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>When you admit that whites are not out to get the blacks...

??? I'm white. I'm not out to get any blacks. What are you talking about?

So you are white?
You don't even realize that although you proclaim that " I'm not out to get any blacks." you do "get the blacks" on a daily basis.
The sad part is that you don't even recognize it !

[tso-d_chris 0]

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You don't even realize that although you proclaim that " I'm not out to get any blacks." you do "get the blacks" on a daily basis.

I'm not following your logic. Could you explain?

[BetsyJ47 0]

Get a rope! Find a tree! Let's hang the bastard!

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Get a rope! Find a tree! Let's hang the bastard!

__________________________________________________

So you are all for racial lynchings?

That's just great Mr. Rich.

You sound like a Texas yahoo!

[billvon 3,120]

> So you are white?

I think so. Wait, let me check . . .

Yep. Sort of a tan-pink mostly.

>You don't even realize that although you proclaim that " I'm not out to get
>any blacks." you do "get the blacks" on a daily basis.

Is that like getting the blues? Because you gotta pay your dues if you wanna get the blues. Or maybe that's sing the blues. Which would disqualify me, because I can't sing anyway.

[Ron 10]

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I agree. The drugs are inconsequential. But drug crimes far outnumber murder in the prisons. To be objective, we have to look at the whole picture. And if you include drug offenders, there is a huge racial injustice.

And you STILL refuse to admit that most drug offenders in prison have commited other crimes.

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If the law is unjust the first time, it's going to be unjust the second time as well.

The law is the law. If a person breaks it once and then does not break it again they should not be punished as much as the habitual offender.

Thats simple to understand.

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There is something inherently wrong when a self proclaimed free country sends anyone to jail for having three joints.

The country has decided that joints are illegal. So YOUR country said that they are illegal. THAT IS A FREE COUNTRY. "Free" does not mean do as you damn well please".

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People do not smoke pot and get violent.

Non-sequitor to this discussion. It does not matter what the drug does. It only matters that a majority have decided that it is illegal.

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How is society better off by spending several man hours, at taxpayer expense, for using an entheogen that is generally known to make people calm and mellow?

Again it does not matter what the drug does...It only matters that it is illegal. You migth as well argue that its OK to have sex with minors as long as they don't mind.

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We are rarely, if ever faced with an A or B situation. There is nearly always another option.

And you STILL manage to be Fred Astair and avoid answering a simple question....Tell ya what, until you answer that simple question...don't bother to respond to me...The only responce FROM me will be "Answer the Question"

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tso-d_chris 0]

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And you STILL refuse to admit that most drug offenders in prison have commited other crimes.

I'm sure you have evidence to support this. Please share it with the rest of us.

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The law is the law.

Here we disagree. I am a firm disbeliever in victimless crimes. I am a firm believer in civil disobedience.

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The country has decided that joints are illegal. So YOUR country said that they are illegal. THAT IS A FREE COUNTRY "Free" does not mean do as you damn well please . . . It only matters that a majority have decided that it is illegal.

First, free does mean to do as you please, conditionally upon your actions not harming others. The majority that you speak of was not a popular election. It was a closed door session of Congress in 1937, hardly a tribute to democracy, let alone a free country, which, icidentally, need not be the same thing.

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Again it does not matter what the drug does...It only matters that it is illegal

What other blatant wastes of taxpayer money do you support?

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How is society better off by spending several man hours, at taxpayer expense, for using an entheogen that is generally known to make people calm and mellow?

Again it does not matter what the drug does...It only matters that it is illegal. You migth as well argue that its OK to have sex with minors as long as they don't mind.

I'm guessing you don't know what entheogen means, or else you do not support freedom of religion, which, if I recall correctly, trumps a majority vote by Congress. Not to mention the War on Drugs is unConstitutional to begin with.

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US Constitution Aricle III Section 3 Section. 3. Clause 1:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

It is estimated that 25% of the nation's population have used illegal drugs. Are they all criminals in your mind?

Most law enforcement officers are sworn to uphold the Constitution, either directly, or indirectly. As such, to answer your question with either of the two options would in fact be a violation of that oath, if either person wanted to challenge the point. I would lose my badge.

In fact, in an increasing number of cities, possesion is not an arrestable offense. The offender gets a ticket (and presumably the cannabis confiscated) and is sent on their way. So, until you come up with a more realistic question, the answer remains the same. None of the Above.

[rehmwa 2]

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>When you admit that whites are not out to get the blacks...

??? I'm white. I'm not out to get any blacks. What are you talking about?

Hey, apparently you are guilty by virtue of your skin color. Obviously your actions, and how you live your life have no bearing on your guilt.

(to no one - one thing about John's stats on crime. I agree that it would likely ratio to reports of crime as much as actual incidents of crime which would mean that primarily black communities call the cops more - that could be from a lot of reasons. One being that people in these neighborhoods are more willing to dial 911 than other neighborhoods with potentially a similar actual crime rate? So what does that say about these neighborhoods - either the people with phones are more scared, or they trust cops more, or what?)

So why are they making more calls? any ideas?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 10]

"Answer the Question"

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334