waltappel 1 #26 October 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteAffirmative Action is obviously *not* discrimination. I agree. Aw c'mon!!! You're no fun--you didn't take the (race) bait! Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #27 October 2, 2005 QuoteAw c'mon!!! You're no fun--you didn't take the (race) bait! Oh I took the bait. I just left the hook! Okay. Here goes: I think mass abortions are a bad thing no matter what race. I do think, however, any significant decrease in reproduction (not necessarily race specific) is going to have short term effects (15-30 yrs) that will include benefits to the economic well being of the impoverished, which will, in turn, reduce crime, at least in the short term. In the long term, there would be more detrimental effects, and I would consider such an approach to be unwise for any country not in the midst of a population crisis, but that just my opinion, free and worth nothing more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #28 October 2, 2005 Call it soundly defended if you like...I call in flimsily and ineffectively defended. Race plays absolutely no role in the choices one makes in life. Success is a choice. One chooses to excel in school, or not - be it a small school in Appalachia or an inner city school in the Bronx. One chooses to steal or not, be it from E.J. Hasty's Grocery Store in Nina Ridge, KY or from a 7-11 in NYC. One chooses to do drugs, buy a car one can't afford, live out of their means until the credit runs out, or any other myriad things which contribute to becoming financially destitute. Race plays no role in any of that. Certain races do have higher rates of poverty here in the US. I don't care. Race is not a factor that causes their poverty - it's their poor choices and/or those of their parents. Supporting racial discrimination for collegiate admissions and employment is a choice everyone must make on their own. I find it abominable and disgusting. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #29 October 2, 2005 QuoteRace plays no role in any of that. True. But poverty does. QuoteRace is not a factor that causes their poverty - it's their poor choices and/or those of their parents. Race is not a factor that causes their poverty - it's their poor choices and/or those of their parents.Quote Its's more about the lack of opportunities of their grandparents and parents. We often take for granted the effects of our parents (and in turn, their parents) education and success. If they were not successful, it will be more difficult for their children to be successful. Simply saying everybody has the same opportunities does not make it so. We have taken great strides in this country to end inequality among the different ethnic groups in this country, with respect to opportunity. We are not, however, through. We still have a long way to go; we are not there yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #30 October 2, 2005 QuoteI happen to like Bill Bennett. I do think though that he used really poor judgement (haven't we all?) in the way he tried to make his point. Since he is a public figure and made the statement public, a public apology is in order. I don't believe he is a racist though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He used poor judgment 20 years ago too, when Sec. of Ed., and made some really stupid statements then. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And 25 years ago I used poor judgement when at the age of 16 I did donuts on a neighbor's lawn with my mom's Suburban, destroying their sprinkler system. And Teddy Kennedy used poor judgement when he left Mary Jo in the car to die. And GWB used poor judgement when he got his DUI. And Bill Clinton used poor judgement when he lied under oath. Are you getting my point yet? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I expect good judgment from Cabinet members, Presidents etc. I think this is a reasonable expectation. I have no expectations of you. Get my point yet? ... Well then be prepared to be disappointed at various times in all public officials. Until the day comes when humans are perfect, we will continue to make mistakes, hence the reason I believe Bill Bennett owes an apology. I have no problem admitting and apologizing when I make a mistake. Do you? _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #31 October 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteI happen to like Bill Bennett. I do think though that he used really poor judgement (haven't we all?) in the way he tried to make his point. Since he is a public figure and made the statement public, a public apology is in order. I don't believe he is a racist though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He used poor judgment 20 years ago too, when Sec. of Ed., and made some really stupid statements then. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And 25 years ago I used poor judgement when at the age of 16 I did donuts on a neighbor's lawn with my mom's Suburban, destroying their sprinkler system. And Teddy Kennedy used poor judgement when he left Mary Jo in the car to die. And GWB used poor judgement when he got his DUI. And Bill Clinton used poor judgement when he lied under oath. Are you getting my point yet? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I expect good judgment from Cabinet members, Presidents etc. I think this is a reasonable expectation. I have no expectations of you. Get my point yet? ... Well then be prepared to be disappointed at various times in all public officials. Until the day comes when humans are perfect, we will continue to make mistakes, hence the reason I believe Bill Bennett owes an apology. I have no problem admitting and apologizing when I make a mistake. Do you? I've been married, I know how to admit and apologize even when I haven't made a mistake.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #32 October 2, 2005 QuoteI expect good judgment from Cabinet members, Presidents etc. I think this is a reasonable expectation. I have no expectations of you. Get my point yet? ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well then be prepared to be disappointed at various times in all public officials. Until the day comes when humans are perfect, we will continue to make mistakes, hence the reason I believe Bill Bennett owes an apology. I have no problem admitting and apologizing when I make a mistake. Do you? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been married, I know how to admit and apologize even when I haven't made a mistake. If I am reading your statement correctly, you're saying that you know when to apologize and admit you're wrong; even when you weren't as well as when you were. Am I right? I don't know if we see this Bennett thing the same, but I think we're close. I think we both agree he used poor judgement (considering who he is and who he used to be, I would say extremely poor judgement.) and owes a public apology. I would add a sincere public apology. Sadly, we don't get much of that these days from our public officials. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #33 October 2, 2005 QuoteSadly, we don't get much of that these days from our public officials. Especially since the majority of them that have been elected recently ae completely infallible. They do not need to apologize ( at least in thier minds.. since they have that mandate to do what ever the F@#$ they want) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #34 October 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteI expect good judgment from Cabinet members, Presidents etc. I think this is a reasonable expectation. I have no expectations of you. Get my point yet? ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well then be prepared to be disappointed at various times in all public officials. Until the day comes when humans are perfect, we will continue to make mistakes, hence the reason I believe Bill Bennett owes an apology. I have no problem admitting and apologizing when I make a mistake. Do you? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been married, I know how to admit and apologize even when I haven't made a mistake. If I am reading your statement correctly, you're saying that you know when to apologize and admit you're wrong; even when you weren't as well as when you were. Am I right? I don't know if we see this Bennett thing the same, but I think we're close. I think we both agree he used poor judgement (considering who he is and who he used to be, I would say extremely poor judgement.) and owes a public apology. I would add a sincere public apology. Sadly, we don't get much of that these days from our public officials. Do you recall when Bernnett was Sec. of Ed.? I was in the education business at the time.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #35 October 2, 2005 QuoteSadly, we don't get much of that these days from our public officials. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Especially since the majority of them that have been elected recently ae completely infallible. They do not need to apologize ( at least in thier minds.. since they have that mandate to do what ever the F@#$ they want) I agree with your statement. The only change I would make to it is that it is not just the recently elected. I believe my statement to be true of Repubs and Dems and Independents. I like to think that there are some humble and honest elected officials in our nation. Unfortunately, I do believe they are in a minority. I believe the framework of our government to be the best out there. The problem that seems to continue to evolve is the enormous corruption that has seeped in. It is discouraging to know that each time we have an election, it seems our only choices are the lesser of the evils. Does anyone believe this will change in our lifetime? Maybe that's another thread. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #36 October 2, 2005 QuoteDo you recall when Bernnett was Sec. of Ed.? I was in the education business at the time. Honestly, no. I was in my early 20's at the time and did not pay much attention to politics. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #37 October 2, 2005 QuoteI believe the framework of our government to be the best out there. The problem that seems to continue to evolve is the enormous corruption that has seeped in. [devil's advocate]If I remember my philosophy correctly, Plato and Aristotle both felt that the corruption was inevitable in a democracy, and was in fact one of the defining characteristics.[/devil's advocate] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #38 October 2, 2005 QuoteI believe the framework of our government to be the best out there. The problem that seems to continue to evolve is the enormous corruption that has seeped in. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [devil's advocate]If I remember my philosophy correctly, Plato and Aristotle both felt that the corruption was inevitable in a democracy, and was in fact one of the defining characteristics.[/devil's advocate] I believe in that philosophy. Because our form of Government is so open to all, it is open to all kind of oppurtunists. But at the same time it is open to honest servants. Right now though, it seems to me the honest servants are unelectable. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #39 October 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteI believe the framework of our government to be the best out there. The problem that seems to continue to evolve is the enormous corruption that has seeped in. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [devil's advocate]If I remember my philosophy correctly, Plato and Aristotle both felt that the corruption was inevitable in a democracy, and was in fact one of the defining characteristics.[/devil's advocate] I believe in that philosophy. Because our form of Government is so open to all, it is open to all kind of oppurtunists. But at the same time it is open to honest servants. Right now though, it seems to me the honest servants are unelectable. We agree on something, then. However, I don't think Bennett was dishonest or consciously racist, I think he was/is just incompetent.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #40 October 3, 2005 QuoteHowever, I don't think Bennett was dishonest or consciously racist, I think he was/is just incompetent. How many politicians (let's keep it at the national level) do you think are competent? And remember, by what I've seen on this board, "competent" = "infallible" by definition. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #41 October 3, 2005 Quote...When viewed from a perspective that includes the century of slavery in this country, it is easy to see that there is still a ways to go before the economic and academic playing field is level. This is where you lost me, Chris....the "my ancestors were slaves" gambit is only used by those too lazy to do the things that create success...making good life choices and following through is the key. You may have noticed that many people with slavery in their family past have succeeded in life. How does that happen? Were they uniquely selected for, and carried through, the path to success or did they work for it? Give me fulcrum and I'll move the world...well, WTF...go out and make a fulcrum to use...or are they waiting on the government to hand them one?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #42 October 3, 2005 QuoteThis is where you lost me, Chris....the "my ancestors were slaves" gambit is only used by those too lazy to do the things that create success...making good life choices and following through is the key. You may have noticed that many people with slavery in their family past have succeeded in life. How does that happen? Were they uniquely selected for, and carried through, the path to success or did they work for it? Give me fulcrum and I'll move the world...well, WTF...go out and make a fulcrum to use...or are they waiting on the government to hand them one? I clarified later in the thread: >Its's more about the lack of opportunities of their grandparents and parents. We often take for granted the effects of our parents (and in turn, their parents) education and success. If they were not successful, it will be more difficult for their children to be successful. Simply saying everybody has the same opportunities does not make it so. We have taken great strides in this country to end inequality among the different ethnic groups in this country, with respect to opportunity. We are not, however, through. We still have a long way to go; we are not there yet. --------- I've been around way too many minorities to believe that they don't work as hard toward success. Unfortunately, when you are already behind before you ever get started, success is far more difficult, though, as you point out, not impossible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #43 October 3, 2005 Quote If they were not successful, it will be more difficult for their children to be successful. Very true - regardless of the color of the child or parents. Race-based AA does nothing to mitigate this for all kids in such scenarios - only a portion; less than half in fact. It DOES, however, make it possible for the son of a doctor to have an advantage in admission/employment scenarios over the child of a third generation tobacco farmer from Paint Lick, KY...or the son of an impoverished Lithuanian immigrant...or...etc. Isn't racial discrimination dandy? Now AA based upon parents' tax returns would be soooo much better. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #44 October 3, 2005 >Large reduction in impoverished population=large reduction in crime. Had he said that, he would not be experiencing the shitstorm he is now. He is not guilty of hating blacks; he is guilty of saying something blatantly racist and not even being smart enough to realize that it would be taken that way. Let's take an example. Let's say you believe that the rich unduly influence government policy. No problem; debate away on that topic. No one's going to get all bent out of shape. But if you say "if we burned all the jews the problem would go away" you're going to (rightly) get called a racist, even if jews tend to be rich more often than other races/religions. And all the subsequent attempts to weasel out of that statement would be rightly rejected. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #45 October 3, 2005 QuoteNow AA based upon parents' tax returns would be ... much better. I would like to hear more about this idea. I do not think current AA policies are perfect, by any means. But they do enable slow progress towards a necessary and just end. However, if a more just method is made available, I would definitely consider it with an open mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #46 October 3, 2005 Quote he is guilty of saying something blatantly racist. Not at all, he said his example was completely absurd (he DIRECTLY noted it was completely absurd during and after the comment) in order to highlight an absurd comment from a caller relating to abortion. The caller noted that if abortion had been illegal, then there would be more people to pay in to social security right now. Bennett noted that was an absurd comment just as bad as saying crime rate would be reduced if all black babies were aborted. He was relating that in moral issues, using a practicality argument is a misdirection (thus leading to the main topic being negotiable based on practical issues rather than absolute based on morality). It's not that hard to understand the flaw in the original callers attempt. 1 - He's pro life 2 - He was countering an argument from a pro-lifer anyway (interesting enough) 3 - He clearly noted that his example of an analogy is ludricrous and reprehensible and is on the same level as the callers argument. reducto in absurdum argument It's only an issue if purposely taken out of context. Which of course is exactly what happend. Edit: The original black baby abortion comment relating to crime rate reduction - I heard it was in a book titled Freakonomics written by a very liberal author. Anyone confirm this? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #47 October 3, 2005 >>he is guilty of saying something blatantly racist. >Not at all, he said his example was completely absurd . . . That's like saying "I'm not racist, I like ice cream!" His statement was absurd _and_ racist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #48 October 3, 2005 Quote>>he is guilty of saying something blatantly racist. >Not at all, he said his example was completely absurd . . . That's like saying "I'm not racist, I like ice cream!" His statement was absurd _and_ racist. It's more like you pointing out in these forums how bad Hummers are for gas and then someone chastizing you for providing free advertising for Hummers. And then claiming you drive a Hummer. And then claiming you torture infants. Edit: I'm agreeing with Kallend on this one. He accidently set himself up by those looking for any port in a storm to cry wolf. Bennett could have just as easily made the point by saying crime would eventually be reduced by aborting every fetus in the world. But I'm sure he was swayed by the liberal author's writings in how that came out. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #49 October 3, 2005 >And then claiming you torture infants. That would be silly (and would have absolutely nothing to do with the topic) unless I said "if you torture infants you will get better gas mileage." We're not talking about something he didn't say - we are talking about what he DID say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #50 October 3, 2005 QuoteWhat about the large percentage of white folks that live below the poverty line? He didn't seem to be overly concerned about their effects on crime rates. His comment was not about poverty, but about crime. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 43% of violent crime arrestees were black. Yet blacks comprise just 13% of the overall population. If they committed violent crime at the same rate as whites, their percentage would be equal to their proportion of the population. But they don't - blacks are arrested for violent crime greater than three times more often than their proportionate share of the population. That's why Bennet singled them out in his example. Like he said: his example is technically correct, but not a morally acceptable way to control crime. Some data in support of this: Rate of crime arrest per 100,000 population of that race, 1997: White Non-white --------- --------- Murder ................... 3 30 Violent crime ............ 178 864 Forcible rape ............ 8 37 Robbery .................. 24 225 Aggravated assault ....... 142 572 Property crime ........... 572 1,914 Burglary ................. 105 305 Larceny-theft ............ 418 1,403 Auto theft ............... 42 190 Stolen property .......... 38 187 Weapons violations ....... 56 253 Sex offenses ............. 33 69 Drug abuse violations .... 428 1,701(FBI, Uniform Crime Reports, 1997, Section IV, Race-Specific Arrest Rates, Table 43, "Total Arrests, Distribution by Race") P.S. Posting facts does not make one a racist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 2 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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Muenkel 0 #30 October 2, 2005 QuoteI happen to like Bill Bennett. I do think though that he used really poor judgement (haven't we all?) in the way he tried to make his point. Since he is a public figure and made the statement public, a public apology is in order. I don't believe he is a racist though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He used poor judgment 20 years ago too, when Sec. of Ed., and made some really stupid statements then. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And 25 years ago I used poor judgement when at the age of 16 I did donuts on a neighbor's lawn with my mom's Suburban, destroying their sprinkler system. And Teddy Kennedy used poor judgement when he left Mary Jo in the car to die. And GWB used poor judgement when he got his DUI. And Bill Clinton used poor judgement when he lied under oath. Are you getting my point yet? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I expect good judgment from Cabinet members, Presidents etc. I think this is a reasonable expectation. I have no expectations of you. Get my point yet? ... Well then be prepared to be disappointed at various times in all public officials. Until the day comes when humans are perfect, we will continue to make mistakes, hence the reason I believe Bill Bennett owes an apology. I have no problem admitting and apologizing when I make a mistake. Do you? _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #31 October 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteI happen to like Bill Bennett. I do think though that he used really poor judgement (haven't we all?) in the way he tried to make his point. Since he is a public figure and made the statement public, a public apology is in order. I don't believe he is a racist though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He used poor judgment 20 years ago too, when Sec. of Ed., and made some really stupid statements then. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And 25 years ago I used poor judgement when at the age of 16 I did donuts on a neighbor's lawn with my mom's Suburban, destroying their sprinkler system. And Teddy Kennedy used poor judgement when he left Mary Jo in the car to die. And GWB used poor judgement when he got his DUI. And Bill Clinton used poor judgement when he lied under oath. Are you getting my point yet? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I expect good judgment from Cabinet members, Presidents etc. I think this is a reasonable expectation. I have no expectations of you. Get my point yet? ... Well then be prepared to be disappointed at various times in all public officials. Until the day comes when humans are perfect, we will continue to make mistakes, hence the reason I believe Bill Bennett owes an apology. I have no problem admitting and apologizing when I make a mistake. Do you? I've been married, I know how to admit and apologize even when I haven't made a mistake.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #32 October 2, 2005 QuoteI expect good judgment from Cabinet members, Presidents etc. I think this is a reasonable expectation. I have no expectations of you. Get my point yet? ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well then be prepared to be disappointed at various times in all public officials. Until the day comes when humans are perfect, we will continue to make mistakes, hence the reason I believe Bill Bennett owes an apology. I have no problem admitting and apologizing when I make a mistake. Do you? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been married, I know how to admit and apologize even when I haven't made a mistake. If I am reading your statement correctly, you're saying that you know when to apologize and admit you're wrong; even when you weren't as well as when you were. Am I right? I don't know if we see this Bennett thing the same, but I think we're close. I think we both agree he used poor judgement (considering who he is and who he used to be, I would say extremely poor judgement.) and owes a public apology. I would add a sincere public apology. Sadly, we don't get much of that these days from our public officials. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #33 October 2, 2005 QuoteSadly, we don't get much of that these days from our public officials. Especially since the majority of them that have been elected recently ae completely infallible. They do not need to apologize ( at least in thier minds.. since they have that mandate to do what ever the F@#$ they want) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #34 October 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteI expect good judgment from Cabinet members, Presidents etc. I think this is a reasonable expectation. I have no expectations of you. Get my point yet? ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well then be prepared to be disappointed at various times in all public officials. Until the day comes when humans are perfect, we will continue to make mistakes, hence the reason I believe Bill Bennett owes an apology. I have no problem admitting and apologizing when I make a mistake. Do you? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been married, I know how to admit and apologize even when I haven't made a mistake. If I am reading your statement correctly, you're saying that you know when to apologize and admit you're wrong; even when you weren't as well as when you were. Am I right? I don't know if we see this Bennett thing the same, but I think we're close. I think we both agree he used poor judgement (considering who he is and who he used to be, I would say extremely poor judgement.) and owes a public apology. I would add a sincere public apology. Sadly, we don't get much of that these days from our public officials. Do you recall when Bernnett was Sec. of Ed.? I was in the education business at the time.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #35 October 2, 2005 QuoteSadly, we don't get much of that these days from our public officials. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Especially since the majority of them that have been elected recently ae completely infallible. They do not need to apologize ( at least in thier minds.. since they have that mandate to do what ever the F@#$ they want) I agree with your statement. The only change I would make to it is that it is not just the recently elected. I believe my statement to be true of Repubs and Dems and Independents. I like to think that there are some humble and honest elected officials in our nation. Unfortunately, I do believe they are in a minority. I believe the framework of our government to be the best out there. The problem that seems to continue to evolve is the enormous corruption that has seeped in. It is discouraging to know that each time we have an election, it seems our only choices are the lesser of the evils. Does anyone believe this will change in our lifetime? Maybe that's another thread. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #36 October 2, 2005 QuoteDo you recall when Bernnett was Sec. of Ed.? I was in the education business at the time. Honestly, no. I was in my early 20's at the time and did not pay much attention to politics. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #37 October 2, 2005 QuoteI believe the framework of our government to be the best out there. The problem that seems to continue to evolve is the enormous corruption that has seeped in. [devil's advocate]If I remember my philosophy correctly, Plato and Aristotle both felt that the corruption was inevitable in a democracy, and was in fact one of the defining characteristics.[/devil's advocate] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #38 October 2, 2005 QuoteI believe the framework of our government to be the best out there. The problem that seems to continue to evolve is the enormous corruption that has seeped in. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [devil's advocate]If I remember my philosophy correctly, Plato and Aristotle both felt that the corruption was inevitable in a democracy, and was in fact one of the defining characteristics.[/devil's advocate] I believe in that philosophy. Because our form of Government is so open to all, it is open to all kind of oppurtunists. But at the same time it is open to honest servants. Right now though, it seems to me the honest servants are unelectable. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #39 October 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteI believe the framework of our government to be the best out there. The problem that seems to continue to evolve is the enormous corruption that has seeped in. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [devil's advocate]If I remember my philosophy correctly, Plato and Aristotle both felt that the corruption was inevitable in a democracy, and was in fact one of the defining characteristics.[/devil's advocate] I believe in that philosophy. Because our form of Government is so open to all, it is open to all kind of oppurtunists. But at the same time it is open to honest servants. Right now though, it seems to me the honest servants are unelectable. We agree on something, then. However, I don't think Bennett was dishonest or consciously racist, I think he was/is just incompetent.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #40 October 3, 2005 QuoteHowever, I don't think Bennett was dishonest or consciously racist, I think he was/is just incompetent. How many politicians (let's keep it at the national level) do you think are competent? And remember, by what I've seen on this board, "competent" = "infallible" by definition. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #41 October 3, 2005 Quote...When viewed from a perspective that includes the century of slavery in this country, it is easy to see that there is still a ways to go before the economic and academic playing field is level. This is where you lost me, Chris....the "my ancestors were slaves" gambit is only used by those too lazy to do the things that create success...making good life choices and following through is the key. You may have noticed that many people with slavery in their family past have succeeded in life. How does that happen? Were they uniquely selected for, and carried through, the path to success or did they work for it? Give me fulcrum and I'll move the world...well, WTF...go out and make a fulcrum to use...or are they waiting on the government to hand them one?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #42 October 3, 2005 QuoteThis is where you lost me, Chris....the "my ancestors were slaves" gambit is only used by those too lazy to do the things that create success...making good life choices and following through is the key. You may have noticed that many people with slavery in their family past have succeeded in life. How does that happen? Were they uniquely selected for, and carried through, the path to success or did they work for it? Give me fulcrum and I'll move the world...well, WTF...go out and make a fulcrum to use...or are they waiting on the government to hand them one? I clarified later in the thread: >Its's more about the lack of opportunities of their grandparents and parents. We often take for granted the effects of our parents (and in turn, their parents) education and success. If they were not successful, it will be more difficult for their children to be successful. Simply saying everybody has the same opportunities does not make it so. We have taken great strides in this country to end inequality among the different ethnic groups in this country, with respect to opportunity. We are not, however, through. We still have a long way to go; we are not there yet. --------- I've been around way too many minorities to believe that they don't work as hard toward success. Unfortunately, when you are already behind before you ever get started, success is far more difficult, though, as you point out, not impossible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #43 October 3, 2005 Quote If they were not successful, it will be more difficult for their children to be successful. Very true - regardless of the color of the child or parents. Race-based AA does nothing to mitigate this for all kids in such scenarios - only a portion; less than half in fact. It DOES, however, make it possible for the son of a doctor to have an advantage in admission/employment scenarios over the child of a third generation tobacco farmer from Paint Lick, KY...or the son of an impoverished Lithuanian immigrant...or...etc. Isn't racial discrimination dandy? Now AA based upon parents' tax returns would be soooo much better. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #44 October 3, 2005 >Large reduction in impoverished population=large reduction in crime. Had he said that, he would not be experiencing the shitstorm he is now. He is not guilty of hating blacks; he is guilty of saying something blatantly racist and not even being smart enough to realize that it would be taken that way. Let's take an example. Let's say you believe that the rich unduly influence government policy. No problem; debate away on that topic. No one's going to get all bent out of shape. But if you say "if we burned all the jews the problem would go away" you're going to (rightly) get called a racist, even if jews tend to be rich more often than other races/religions. And all the subsequent attempts to weasel out of that statement would be rightly rejected. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #45 October 3, 2005 QuoteNow AA based upon parents' tax returns would be ... much better. I would like to hear more about this idea. I do not think current AA policies are perfect, by any means. But they do enable slow progress towards a necessary and just end. However, if a more just method is made available, I would definitely consider it with an open mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #46 October 3, 2005 Quote he is guilty of saying something blatantly racist. Not at all, he said his example was completely absurd (he DIRECTLY noted it was completely absurd during and after the comment) in order to highlight an absurd comment from a caller relating to abortion. The caller noted that if abortion had been illegal, then there would be more people to pay in to social security right now. Bennett noted that was an absurd comment just as bad as saying crime rate would be reduced if all black babies were aborted. He was relating that in moral issues, using a practicality argument is a misdirection (thus leading to the main topic being negotiable based on practical issues rather than absolute based on morality). It's not that hard to understand the flaw in the original callers attempt. 1 - He's pro life 2 - He was countering an argument from a pro-lifer anyway (interesting enough) 3 - He clearly noted that his example of an analogy is ludricrous and reprehensible and is on the same level as the callers argument. reducto in absurdum argument It's only an issue if purposely taken out of context. Which of course is exactly what happend. Edit: The original black baby abortion comment relating to crime rate reduction - I heard it was in a book titled Freakonomics written by a very liberal author. Anyone confirm this? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #47 October 3, 2005 >>he is guilty of saying something blatantly racist. >Not at all, he said his example was completely absurd . . . That's like saying "I'm not racist, I like ice cream!" His statement was absurd _and_ racist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #48 October 3, 2005 Quote>>he is guilty of saying something blatantly racist. >Not at all, he said his example was completely absurd . . . That's like saying "I'm not racist, I like ice cream!" His statement was absurd _and_ racist. It's more like you pointing out in these forums how bad Hummers are for gas and then someone chastizing you for providing free advertising for Hummers. And then claiming you drive a Hummer. And then claiming you torture infants. Edit: I'm agreeing with Kallend on this one. He accidently set himself up by those looking for any port in a storm to cry wolf. Bennett could have just as easily made the point by saying crime would eventually be reduced by aborting every fetus in the world. But I'm sure he was swayed by the liberal author's writings in how that came out. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #49 October 3, 2005 >And then claiming you torture infants. That would be silly (and would have absolutely nothing to do with the topic) unless I said "if you torture infants you will get better gas mileage." We're not talking about something he didn't say - we are talking about what he DID say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #50 October 3, 2005 QuoteWhat about the large percentage of white folks that live below the poverty line? He didn't seem to be overly concerned about their effects on crime rates. His comment was not about poverty, but about crime. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 43% of violent crime arrestees were black. Yet blacks comprise just 13% of the overall population. If they committed violent crime at the same rate as whites, their percentage would be equal to their proportion of the population. But they don't - blacks are arrested for violent crime greater than three times more often than their proportionate share of the population. That's why Bennet singled them out in his example. Like he said: his example is technically correct, but not a morally acceptable way to control crime. Some data in support of this: Rate of crime arrest per 100,000 population of that race, 1997: White Non-white --------- --------- Murder ................... 3 30 Violent crime ............ 178 864 Forcible rape ............ 8 37 Robbery .................. 24 225 Aggravated assault ....... 142 572 Property crime ........... 572 1,914 Burglary ................. 105 305 Larceny-theft ............ 418 1,403 Auto theft ............... 42 190 Stolen property .......... 38 187 Weapons violations ....... 56 253 Sex offenses ............. 33 69 Drug abuse violations .... 428 1,701(FBI, Uniform Crime Reports, 1997, Section IV, Race-Specific Arrest Rates, Table 43, "Total Arrests, Distribution by Race") P.S. Posting facts does not make one a racist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
