lisamariewillbe 1 #101 October 3, 2005 Well I imagine that it would be very tramatizing to have a child lure people for the cops to bust.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #102 October 3, 2005 QuoteWell I imagine that it would be very tramatizing to have a child lure people for the cops to bust. I agree. That still does not justify suspending civil rights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #103 October 3, 2005 hows is it suspending civil rights?Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #104 October 3, 2005 Quotehows is it suspending civil rights? If it was a police officer above the age of consent, it was not a minor. A crime was created, not committed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #105 October 3, 2005 but because of the circumstances, a crime was stopped. If the person was not talking to a cop, that child he/she was talking to , could be raped, molested, murdered....etc, much different then under-age purchasing of cigerettes.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #106 October 3, 2005 Quotebut because of the circumstances, a crime was stopped. If the person was not talking to a cop, that child he/she was talking to , could be raped, molested, murdered....etc, much different then under-age purchasing of cigerettes. If it was an adult he was talking to, what was the crime? I'm not saying what the accused did is okay. I just don't believe it justifies what is essentially entrapment. Freedom trumps safety. "They that would give up essential liberties in order to gain some temporary safety desrve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #107 October 3, 2005 He was under the impression it was a child under the age of consent. It is not entrapement. If it were these people would get off, most of them dont.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #108 October 3, 2005 QuoteHe was under the impression it was a child under the age of consent. It is not entrapement. Then why can't Liquor Control impersonate minors? What was the crime? Who was the victim of the crime? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #109 October 3, 2005 Intent , society is the victimSudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #110 October 3, 2005 Beyond the specific situation here..... As someone with about 15 years worth of online chat experience, including administering those services, and working for a large variety of internet services including adult based entertainment - there's a lot of sick shit out there. The illusion of anonymity and the mental nature of interacting online promote fantasy - and up until such time that thought crimes are able to be prosecuted there will always be a weird cornocopia of behavior available to anyone who wants it on the internet. Sure, we can blame parents, but thats because each of us understands the medium better - we swim in this fish tank every day and know whats out there. To Ma and Pa it's just a box for Jr to do his homework on and chat with his friends. They're unable to get out of the library/telephone paradigm. With the exception of sensational news stories about porn and predators ("honey are you being safe online!?" "Yes Ma!" "ok then") it's just a box to play on. I've seen predators of both sexes on both sides of the equation. I'm also aware that there are different rules for guys online than girls - if ever you want an eye opening experience as a guy go hit a major network with a feminine screen name. The issues I see are those of fantasy/roleplay - of which there are many on topics which would make most of us blush or puke, and intent. In the same way that fake child pornography is not criminal it would seem that the "intent" argument is just as blurry if you're chatting to a police specialist with the screen name "suzy13". From a security point of view I'd take a view that you're using a plainttext transmission system, on a generally open system with a client that uses rudimentary logging facilities. There was a recent case in the wrestling world where a promoter was caught ina sting by some cyber justice crew - their evidence was based on logs, who's validity could not be proven. As a security professional the concept of being prosecuted based on computer forensics scares me: 1. It's easy to fake if you want to do it (see the wireless security thread and wep cracking discussion). 2. Most people dont understand the subject, so trying to explain to a jury how files can be altered without creating a paper trail, how sessions can be hijacked, how - if this was in the real world - you can alter reality and history to reflect what you wish. 3. If I was on the jury in a case like this I would always have reasonable doubts unless the experts in charge were doing a great job and they DID go into extreme details (which would seem unlikely given point 2). So for me this whole thing of intent, while sleazy and pretty gross, sits pretty close to the fake child porn. On a side note: a close friend of mine, 34 years old, has been dating his girlfriend for 4 years - she was 15 when they met originally. Sick? Well, I know they didnt date until she was 16 (age of consent in the UK), but having spent some time with her 1) she's an exceptional woman (now 19) 2) I can't imagine my friend with anyone but this girl. Age of consent is still a relatively new concept and statistically has never reflected the true reality of who's having sex. In the UK the laws changed the age of consent from 13 to 16 in 1885. In the US there was a similar trend around the same time. Today the age of consent is based in state law and starts at 16. Last year the youngest male to marry was 15, the youngest female was 13. I'm not saying this to defend any particular behavior, only that I find it interesting how attitudes have changed over a relatively short time period, a matter of 4 or 5 generations. I'm sure I had a point there somewhere. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #111 October 3, 2005 QuoteHe was under the impression it was a child under the age of consent. It is not entrapement. If it were these people would get off, most of them dont. How do you know what he believed? Seems to me a pretty major assumption that he believed everything he read on the 'net. Do you believe everything you read on the 'net??... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #112 October 3, 2005 Your making absolutly no sense, If a person is looking to meet someone in person that they met on the net, they must have believed the conversations they had. Why would an adult, speak of sex to someone who says they are 13 or 14, and all the conversation revolves around the child being a child, yet he actually thinks the person is lying and is actually an adult and not the child he/she has claimed to be? If someone on the net told me they were a child Id number 1 stop talking to them because yes I can be crude and such but if someone even mentions the word minor about me I go into parental mode. I think this post by you makes no sense and you are just trying to play the other side. So tell me, what do you do when someone tells you online that they are only 13? Do you think they are really an adult just trying to bring role-playing into the relationship right away or do you take into consideration that they just stated they are 13 and as a adult you should no persue them?Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #113 October 3, 2005 >Why would an adult, speak of sex to someone who says they are 13 > or 14, and all the conversation revolves around the child being a > child, yet he actually thinks the person is lying and is actually an > adult and not the child he/she has claimed to be? Because people have odd fantasies. Why would a guy pretend to be a cop and a woman pretend to be a criminal who gets arrested? Yet some people play out that fantasy. Making sure you know who you are playing with is absolutely essential in such situations. >So tell me, what do you do when someone tells you online that they are only 13? Personally, I'd tell them that they should be careful about who they tell that to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #114 October 3, 2005 QuoteBecause people have odd fantasies. Why would a guy pretend to be a cop and a woman pretend to be a criminal who gets arrested? Yet some people play out that fantasy. Making sure you know who you are playing with is absolutely essential in such situations Okay I get that, hell Im not a prude, however when you meet someone online, as a adult and someone says they are 13, it does make you a pedophile if you presue them which is much different then , when after two people are in a relationship and the coupld both consentual adults choose to play principal and naughty school girl. It is one thing to know their an adult and play those games , its entirely different to find a minor subject for sex.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #115 October 3, 2005 >however when you meet someone online, as a adult and someone >says they are 13, it does make you a pedophile if you presue them . . . It makes you a pedophile in thought if you believe they are actually 13. If you meet them and act on it you're a pedophile no matter what, but presumably it's easier to tell in person. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #116 October 3, 2005 Any more fine details that need to be picked at? If someone online says they are 13 , and they have not given you reason to believe they are an adult as in they havent said "Im 21 but I like to be 13 for role-playing" then if you mess with them it is just as sick as the person who sits outside a middleschool waiting to grab. And you cant go by looks anymore either, thats why the whole "but your honor she looked like she was 18 and she even told me she was 18" thing dont work. My babysitter looks my age... shes 15, bigger boobs and probley more mature to, yet she is still a minor and therefore not able to consent to sex.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #117 October 3, 2005 I think it's not so cut and dried as you'd imagine. the scenario you're talking about is going to be the most common. But like I said before, I've seen predators on both sides of the equation. A friend of mine has a 13 year old daughter, her best friend (a year or two ago) was a young girl who played up her sexuality around older men (like my friend and myself) to try and get her own way. Even if I werent a parent it would be very disquieting, as a parent it was both disturbing and also made me wonder how the kid was raised. The girl would also wander into the room and discuss the latest sex tips she'd read in cosmo - and none of the adults would be quite able to tell if she was aware of what she was saying. Taking that personality and seeing it online (as anyone who's spent any signficant amount of time on IRC can tell you) is a recipe for disaster. I've seen 15 year olds lie to 30 year olds for months about their age (or even their sex!) while they build a relationship. I've seen people who should know better think they're in love and throw caution to the wind, regardless of their age. The picture is complex. IT's not all about older men chasing underage girls for rape fantasies. Online interaction is incredibly complex. Coincidentally it's something that I've spent several years researching as part of my job - and recently paying more attention as I've been tasked to design build a successful online chat community to run alongside my companies main product. If it's anything you'd be interested in learning about PM me and I can give you many links to research groups online that handle this sort of thing. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #118 October 3, 2005 PM sentSudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #119 October 3, 2005 >If someone online says they are 13 , and they have not given you > reason to believe they are an adult as in they havent said "Im 21 > but I like to be 13 for role-playing" then if you mess with them it is > just as sick as the person who sits outside a middleschool waiting to > grab. Again, it depends on what you think. If you're on the "board where people pretend to be 13" then that's a factor. The whole online issue is complex for several reasons. Take these examples - A 13 year old who claims she is 21 because she likes people to take her more seriously. A 21 year old who claims she's 13 because that's just her thing. A 13 year old who says "I'm legal AND I'm 13!" (i.e. being intentionally misleading) If a guy posts explicit stuff to the above posters, in which cases is he "as sick as the person who sits outside a middleschool?" Like I said before, it is because of cases like this that it is critical you know who you are talking to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #120 October 3, 2005 Before I respond to your thread I am going to go read the stuff Alex just pm'd me, I have a feeling it relates to this exact post you just said, however at this time my position is in no way different.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #121 October 3, 2005 Quote>however when you meet someone online, as a adult and someone >says they are 13, it does make you a pedophile if you presue them . . . It makes you a pedophile in thought if you believe they are actually 13. If you meet them and act on it you're a pedophile no matter what, but presumably it's easier to tell in person. You'd have to have really good reason to believe that this person who says they're 13 is really an adult for that argument to fly. Talking to a person who you believe might be 13 years old about even the remote possibility of having sex with her should be prosecuted. For an adult to talk to a child about having a sexual relationship is abusive, whether a real physical act occurs or not. If he has a sexual fantasy that involves children, he should be DAMN sure that the person he's acting this fantasy out with, whether it be through verbage or physical contact, is an adult. If there's any reasonable chance that she might be a child, then he has acted incredibly inappropriately.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #122 October 3, 2005 QuoteThey usually get actual minors to do it in some places Say what!?!?! Where do you come up with this stuff? The police employ children to enter into sexually charged online conversations?????----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #123 October 3, 2005 Jen that was in response to a minor buying cigerettes or beer, before you go on your rant why dont you read more then just a few of the postsSudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #124 October 4, 2005 QuoteYour making absolutly no sense, If a person is looking to meet someone in person that they met on the net, they must have believed the conversations they had. Why would an adult, speak of sex to someone who says they are 13 or 14, and all the conversation revolves around the child being a child, yet he actually thinks the person is lying and is actually an adult and not the child he/she has claimed to be? If someone on the net told me they were a child Id number 1 stop talking to them because yes I can be crude and such but if someone even mentions the word minor about me I go into parental mode. I think this post by you makes no sense and you are just trying to play the other side. So tell me, what do you do when someone tells you online that they are only 13? Do you think they are really an adult just trying to bring role-playing into the relationship right away or do you take into consideration that they just stated they are 13 and as a adult you should no persue them? I don't believe everything I read on the internet. I ask you again, DO YOU? (and try answering the question this time). BTW, I don't go to dating chat rooms either, so your diversionary question is moot.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 1010 #125 October 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteThey usually get actual minors to do it in some places Say what!?!?! Where do you come up with this stuff? The police employ children to enter into sexually charged online conversations????? LM already responded to you (it's alcohol, not sex), and yes my state hires minors to attempt to buy alcohol all the time. You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
