God Proofs!

[tcnelson 1]

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Who do we make the checks out to?

WWFSM do?

ted nelson!

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Sorry but I believe that the Bible is a work of fiction and that any arguments based on it hold the same amount of weight as fairy tales.

It is interesting to me how much time people at dz.com, who don't believe in God, spend talking about Him and how He "doesn't exist." If He "doesn't exist," talk about something else! It's like you think that if you say it enough, it'll come true. And if you can get support from others who believe He doesn't exist, you can *really* make Him go away.

Keep trying, tho. Maybe eventually denying Him will anesthetize you.

One quote from chuteless usually gets us going.
For the most part, the atheists (which I am not) do not start it. Someone quotes the bible and we are all off and running. I find it fun and interesting to argue it anyway.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[StevePhelps 0]

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I am not saying that. They may not know it is false (and I am not saying it is either).

Hundreds of people say they see miracles all the time. Do we believe all of them? Our Lady of Guadalupe for instance. GROUPS of people say they witnessed something profound, but are they all true? perhaps. perhaps not.

I'm sorry I'm not communicating very well. For the original 12 (okay, 11 minus Judas) disciples, they KNEW Jesus was either alive or dead.

Everyone after his resurrection had to experience it through "faith". But the original 11 KNEW -- he was DEAD or ALIVE. For them, it wasn't a matter of faith, it was FIRST HAND knowledge. They chose to die based on what they KNEW not what they BELIEVED

Now to use yor lady of Guadaloupe example. Did they see an image? a mirage? a figment of thieir imagination? Perhaps, but we'll never know. As said earlier, it takes more faith for me to believe they were willing to die for what they THOUGHT They saw, than be willing to die for what the KNEW they SAW FIRSTHAND.

[Vallerina 2]

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For the most part, the atheists (which I am not) do not start it

Yeah! I never said that I was an atheist! I'm not. I think that there is some sort of "higher power."

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I find it fun and interesting to argue it anyway.

Me, too!

Plus, religious or not, religion does affect most people. I also like to debate things because that's a way to learn. If someone brings up a point I hadn't thought of before, that's great!

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[GTAVercetti 0]

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I am not saying that. They may not know it is false (and I am not saying it is either).

Hundreds of people say they see miracles all the time. Do we believe all of them? Our Lady of Guadalupe for instance. GROUPS of people say they witnessed something profound, but are they all true? perhaps. perhaps not.

I'm sorry I'm not communicating very well. For the original 12 (okay, 11 minus Judas) disciples, they KNEW Jesus was either alive or dead.

Everyone after his resurrection had to experience it through "faith". But the original 11 KNEW -- he was DEAD or ALIVE. For them, it wasn't a matter of faith, it was FIRST HAND knowledge. They chose to die based on what they KNEW not what they BELIEVED

Now to use yor lady of Guadaloupe example. Did they see an image? a mirage? a figment of thieir imagination? Perhaps, but we'll never know. As said earlier, it takes more faith for me to believe they were willing to die for what they THOUGHT They saw, than be willing to die for what the KNEW they SAW FIRSTHAND.

Our Lady's first Miracle:

The First Miracle

The Indians, especially, were swept away with an elation that knew no bounds. As they danced and sang, in their thousands, waving green sprays to and fro, their voices thundered all around the hills with audacious but holy pride as they chanted, "The Virgin is one of us. Our pure Mother, Our Sovereign Lady, is one of us!" What an answer to the inhumanity of slavery! How could one any longer enslave the son of a Queen before whom every king must bow?

In a transport of enthusiasm, one group of young warriors took their bows and celebrated by sending a pretty volley of arrows flying through the air. Unfortunately, they were not too careful where they aimed and one of the shafts struck a spectator, piercing his neck, and killing him instantly. The poor native was picked up by his sorrowing friends and carried into the chapel, where they placed him at the feet of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Here in the presence of her who had promised to be their consolation, they pathetically pleaded that she not allow such a solemnity to be marred by such a tragedy. Everyone together prayed for a miracle.

"Please," the Christian Indians prayed, "let our brothers who are still in the darkness of idolatry see the power of the holy Virgin of Tepeyac."

All of a sudden the dead man opened his eyes and rose up on his feet, fully recovered. Spaniards and Indians jumped for joy, spontaneously embracing one another with true brotherly affection. With the cure of this physical wound, the Mother of God, who is the Health of the Sick, began healing the wound of animosity that until then had kept these two races so bitterly divided. The Faith of the conquerors had united with the Fatherland of the conquered. The labor had indeed been most painful, but Mexico was born.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[StreetScooby 5]

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastafarian

My sides are hurting, and I have tears in my eyes!

We are all engines of karma

[StevePhelps 0]

Nice story. Where is it from? a Historian? I see a difference though.

An unbiased, yes, non believing Historian, Josephus, recorded Jesus lived, taught and was crucified by the Romans. That lends it to fact more than myth. His original followers were martyred, that too is recorded fact by non believing historians.

The question that keeps coming up, Would they die for what they KNEW to be a myth or a lie?

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Nice story. Where is it from? a Historian? I see a difference though.

An unbiased, yes, non believing Historian, Josephus, recorded Jesus lived, taught and was crucified by the Romans. That lends it to fact more than myth. His original followers were martyred, that too is recorded fact by non believing historians.

The question that keeps coming up, Would they die for what they KNEW to be a myth or a lie?

I am not questioning Jesus's life or death. Nor his followers. Hell, I am not even questioning his ressurection. But to read Jpsephus' account, it sounds like he was a little less than non-bias.

The only thing that I am questioning is that just because someone THINKS they see something or BELIEVES they see something does not make it true. I just think it is a poor argument. There are better ones to take if you want to try to prove the validity of Christianity.

People, en masse, think they see aliens flying in the sky. Does that make it true because they KNOW they saw it?

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[jakee 1,594]

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It is interesting to me how much time people at dz.com, who don't believe in God, spend talking about Him and how He "doesn't exist." If He "doesn't exist," talk about something else! It's like you think that if you say it enough, it'll come true. And if you can get support from others who believe He doesn't exist, you can *really* make Him go away.

I've explained this to you already. Forgotten so soon?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[IanHarrop 42]

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Keep trying, tho. Maybe eventually denying Him will anesthetize you.

Don't worry about me, I'm fine with my beliefs and at 50 I'm not worried about convincing anyone.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[StevePhelps 0]

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Nice story. Where is it from? a Historian? I see a difference though.

An unbiased, yes, non believing Historian, Josephus, recorded Jesus lived, taught and was crucified by the Romans. That lends it to fact more than myth. His original followers were martyred, that too is recorded fact by non believing historians.

The question that keeps coming up, Would they die for what they KNEW to be a myth or a lie?

I am not questioning Jesus's life or death. Nor his followers. Hell, I am not even questioning his ressurection. But to read Jpsephus' account, it sounds like he was a little less than non-bias.

The only thing that I am questioning is that just because someone THINKS they see something or BELIEVES they see something does not make it true. I just think it is a poor argument. There are better ones to take if you want to try to prove the validity of Christianity.

People, en masse, think they see aliens flying in the sky. Does that make it true because they KNOW they saw it?

Don't get me wrong, I believe Christianity is a faith issue. I wasn't trying to "argue". I was trying to point out there were some credible facts that "help" my faith along.

As far as people seeing and dying for the fact they believed in aliens. I haven't heard of any, but with work and skydiving, I don't get out as much.

BTW, Josephus was a Jew, not a Christian. In his eyes, Jesus would have been a heretic. He was DEFINITELY NOT biased for Christ or Christians.

He only recorded the "facts" Jesus lived, preached, was crucified, and his followers (he was not one of them) were persecuted for believing he was resurrected.

I summise they were willing to die, because they saw him resurrected. I don't think they'd be willing to die for what they knew was a lie if they created the myth that he was alive.

[StreetScooby 5]

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Maybe eventually denying Him will anesthetize you.

Some religions don't require denial, especially when you can look forward to rivers of beer that issue forth from the great Beer Volcano.

We are all engines of karma