StevePhelps 0 #126 September 16, 2005 QuoteQuotewow, pretty soon the American flag will be offend someone. Why do people keep trying to keep God out of everything, and then run to Him when something goes wrong? It's called separation of church and state. Funny how everyone spouts that anytime "God", "Creator" is mentioned in anything regarding the government. Oops! They said that in the beginning of the Declaration of Independence. What were they thinking, the self righteous, God pushing rebels? We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #127 September 16, 2005 On the one hand I completely agree - it really doesn't matter much at all. I'm sure there are many people though for whom the saying of the words "under God" really would matter to them. A persons religion can be very important to them. Many have been burned alive for refusing to say similar things. But no, in a modern world it doesn't matter that much... it's hardly an "indivisible" society though if only a portion of it is included in the phrase mind. And then again... where I have to sit on a bus really doesn't matter to me either much... And BTW, I'm not about to lie during something as serious as a Naturalization ceremony. I consider my religious values very important to me... simply missing out a phrase I don't agree with and hoping no one would notice is not on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #128 September 16, 2005 QuoteAll we have to do is take it out and more on to the next idiotic argument brought about because PC bullshit from the religious and atheist zealots. Which will be the removal of "In God We Trust" from our currency... Removing "under God" from the pledge is easy, and I don't really have a problem with doing it, but removing "IGWT" from currency is much harder from a practical sense... it will cost a ton of money to change the currency in a wholesale manner... I don't think either of these uses of God rises to the level of establishing a state religion though. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #129 September 16, 2005 Quote recite the Pledge of Allegiance in full on naturalization. As I do not recognize a Judo/Christian deity I guess I'm not welcome. If you make a decision to not emigrate because of two words that have Zero meaning in your life, then your desire to emigrate is pretty low - particularly when you'll likely be ENcouraged to skip them by that time. In this country, not saying them results in no consequences whatsoever. It's completely cosmetic. I'd as soon they weren't in there but I don't think changing it will have any effect of society, I skipped them all my life and no one has made me sit anyplace special or refuse me work because of it. Zero tangible instances of institutionalized discrimination. It's completely different that historical race issues. You know it and are just trolling. So you got your response from a couple people - Happy? If we want to go after religious stuff, then two things - the tax exempt status us stupid and; not giving religious charitible orgs the same status as secular charitable orgs is also stupid. These two, one is pro religion, one is anti-religion - both need fixing. BTW - You are very welcome in this country, if got a few skills to contribute. Plus, skydivers make it a happier place. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #130 September 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuotehttp://www3.capwiz.com/afanet/issues/alert/?alertid=8022451&type=CO Go to above link for AFA Activism. WOW! I see nutbags. They're all around me. Some of them don't even know they're nutbags. Blues, Dave Why thank you Dave....God bless you too. Just for clarification, I didn't realize you actually agree with that webpage when I posted that. Beyond that, I was amazed to read that people in modern society think their pet project ought to exist above the law, without accountability to the judiciary. Seems awfully "un-American", doesn't it? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StevePhelps 0 #131 September 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteAll we have to do is take it out and more on to the next idiotic argument brought about because PC bullshit from the religious and atheist zealots. Which will be the removal of "In God We Trust" from our currency... Removing "under God" from the pledge is easy, and I don't really have a problem with doing it, but removing "IGWT" from currency is much harder from a practical sense... it will cost a ton of money to change the currency in a wholesale manner... I don't think either of these uses of God rises to the level of establishing a state religion though. J Shall we remove the reference to God/Creator from the Declaration of Independence too? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #132 September 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteAll we have to do is take it out and more on to the next idiotic argument brought about because PC bullshit from the religious and atheist zealots. Which will be the removal of "In God We Trust" from our currency... Removing "under God" from the pledge is easy, and I don't really have a problem with doing it, but removing "IGWT" from currency is much harder from a practical sense... it will cost a ton of money to change the currency in a wholesale manner... I don't think either of these uses of God rises to the level of establishing a state religion though. J Shall we remove the reference to God/Creator from the Declaration of Independence too? what the hell? and kill all dogs too (d,o,g), or maybe eliminate the letter G from the alphabet - It's a crappy random to launch in 4-way anyway (catacord). Maybe we can just redefine the the word to mean sky (nobody can disagree with pledging to a flag and country under the sky). We'll put that guy from FEMA right on it. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #133 September 16, 2005 QuoteZero meaning in your life I hold my religious views very dearly. Whether or not I vow to be under a God is quite important to me. I wouldn't want to lie or even lie by omission during such a ceremony. And as I understand it, it is not simply optional whether an immigrant recites the whole of the pledge or not . Quote Zero tangible instances of institutionalized discrimination. It's completely different that historical race issues. I dunno - at least you let black people emigrate to the states... those with genuine religious convictions which conflict with those espoused by the pledge of allegiance are evidently not at all welcome. I'm not at all trolling - it quite a serious analogy. As I said, discrimination is discrimination regardless of the grounds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #134 September 16, 2005 QuoteIf we want to go after religious stuff, then two things - the tax exempt status us stupid and; not giving religious charitible orgs the same status as secular charitable orgs is also stupid. These two, one is pro religion, one is anti-religion - both need fixing. I get the first one, but not the second. Why should churches automatically be treated as charitable organizations? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #135 September 16, 2005 QuoteI wouldn't want to lie or even lie by omission during such a ceremony. I understand this completely. When I got married (my wife's church), I specifically intructed the preacher that there were certain things I wouldn't state publicly (out of my beliefs, but also to not be hypocritical to those that REALLY believed that way.) you state "as I understand it" - Go find out FOR SURE and get the policy in writing. Then when the time comes, you can respectfully inform the 'master of ceremonies' your intent to skip two words. I'm sure they would not make an issue of it with you. And if they did, it wouldn't be the fault of the US governement, it would be the fault of the beaureaucrat standing in front of you. Maybe you could even get on TV and sue someone - then you'd be a true american at that point. I still think it's a nit, but you have to be true and honest to yourself as well as your new nation. That's not bad at all for a new citizen. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #136 September 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteZero meaning in your life I hold my religious views very dearly. Whether or not I vow to be under a God is quite important to me. I wouldn't want to lie or even lie by omission during such a ceremony. Quote How is skipping those words lying by omission? I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. I can type that quite honestly. I've been saying it that way (i.e. honestly) for most of my life. The lie would be if I included those extra words. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #137 September 16, 2005 QuoteI get the first one, but not the second. Why should churches automatically be treated as charitable organizations? Not automatically, but their charitable "activities" should have just as much right to government funding/support/etc than a secular group. Charity is charity regardless of the source. They've been biased against. Pick other things that churches get to do different with the governement (that involve tax dollars) if this one is contentious to you. Frankly on this issue, I don't think government should be into charity. It should all be private donations to whatever groups want to take it on. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #138 September 16, 2005 QuoteGo find out FOR SURE and get the policy in writing. I would do so if I end up going down that route. For the moment, what I have been led to believe is enough for me in a discussion on the web on a lazy friday avo'. QuoteMaybe you could even get on TV and sue someone - then you'd be a true american at that point. hehe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #139 September 16, 2005 QuoteHow is skipping those words lying by omission? If I'm required to say them and I simply hide at the back of the group reciting the pledge and hope none of the officials notice that I have simply remained silent while everyone else said "under God" the officials will believe I have also said "under God". They will tick their little box which says I recited the pledge in full and for all the world would think I said them. That is allowing people to believe something that is not true. That is lying by omission. That may not be important to you, but I hold truth and honor in very high regard; especially truth to myself and especially during such serious ceremonies as a naturalization ceremony. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #140 September 16, 2005 QuoteShall we remove the reference to God/Creator from the Declaration of Independence too? What in my post gave you the impression that I would think that is a good idea? I don't think changing an original founding document is a good idea... where as I am not overly opposed to changing something that did not exist before the 40's and was last changed in the 50's... I do have a problem with where do you draw the line from a practical stand point... phase out IGWT from the currency, OK, wholesale change costing a bunch on money, no. Religion is a personal thing, or should be... the faithful should not need the government to maintain their faith, and the non-beleivers (or believer in something else) shouldn't have it forced upon them by the government either. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #141 September 16, 2005 QuoteNot automatically, but their charitable "activities" should have just as much right to government funding/support/etc than a secular group. Charity is charity regardless of the source. They've been biased against. Pick other things that churches get to do different with the governement (that involve tax dollars) if this one is contentious to you. OK, I guess I understand that. We'd just have to define "charity" to include and exclude certain classes of activity. e.g. Counseling related to ending drug addiction - charity. Counseling related to ending atheism - not charity. QuoteFrankly on this issue, I don't think government should be into charity. It should all be private donations to whatever groups want to take it on. I agree for the most part. I don't really have a problem with charities operating outside the tax code as long as they meet certain criteria. e.g. if 80% of their gross income goes directly to helping whatever social issue(s) they're working on and 20% or less to overhead. I just don't want to see it as a tax shelter. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StevePhelps 0 #142 September 16, 2005 Okay, but the premise is still the same as I see it. You don't like refrence to God/Creator in anything that has to do with our government. You say, IF it is original it can stay. .. why is that aceptable and something from the 40s or 50s is not? I'm missing your point I guess. What about government buildings built this century? If they have religous inscriptions on them should we tear them down or sand blast them off? Just curious as to where you'd draw the line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,587 #143 September 16, 2005 How are they not exempt? All of the church-based charities I'm familiar with are tax-exempt (and my dad, whose mail I take care of, is solicited by most of them because he is very generous). Money that is given to church is tax-exempt as well. When it's a good church, then a noticeable portion of that goes on to direct charities, rather than new cars and church dining halls. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StevePhelps 0 #144 September 16, 2005 QuoteMoney that is given to church is tax-exempt as well. When it's a good church, then a noticeable portion of that goes on to direct charities, rather than new cars and church dining halls. Wendy W. Really? I've been a pastor for over 20 years and I seldom see more that 10-15% go to missions/charities in ANY church I know. The majority is spent on building, staff, equipment, etc. I'm not saying that is wrong (although I do believe we waste too much "church" money on buildings, but that is another topic) I'm simply saying most churches DON'T give MOST of their money away to charities. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,587 #145 September 16, 2005 When our church was operating regularly (maybe this is a clue as to why), we were at 20+%, and heading for 30. In better-attended years, we were trying for 50%. We had the benefit of a building in good condition in those days, however. We still donate most of the money, but that's because we sold the building, and are giving away the proceeds. But we only meet a few times a year. 10-15% isn't bad. When my dad was going to a large mainstream church in Oklahoma, they were at 4%, and complaining about that. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #146 September 16, 2005 You are so full of yourself ........"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #147 September 16, 2005 QuoteQuotewow, pretty soon the American flag will be offend someone. Why do people keep trying to keep God out of everything, and then run to Him when something goes wrong? I don't try to keep god out of everything, just out of the things that I participate in. And no, I don't change tunes when things turn south. Blues, Dave So if you participate in something I do, I have to follow your religion that is no religion. Now I understand"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #148 September 16, 2005 QuoteQuotewow, pretty soon the American flag will be offend someone. Why do people keep trying to keep God out of everything, and then run to Him when something goes wrong? It's called separation of church and state. Your words, it is not in the constitution"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #149 September 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuotewow, pretty soon the American flag will be offend someone. Why do people keep trying to keep God out of everything, and then run to Him when something goes wrong? I don't try to keep god out of everything, just out of the things that I participate in. And no, I don't change tunes when things turn south. Blues, Dave So if you participate in something I do, I have to follow your religion that is no religion. Now I understand Nope, not at all. One of the great things about invisibility is you can imagine he's there without me having to acknowledge the same. Now if you start holding bible study in the middle of the dropzone, don't be surprized if I walk away and go manifest for a load. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #150 September 16, 2005 >What is happening today is judges making law and however you look at it that was never the intent. >The social engineering some of them are doing today has to be stopped ... Oh please. If a future Supreme Court decides abortion is illegal, and creates new law while forcing their view of morality on america, you'll be applauding them for 'protecting the rights of the unborn' or something. Their JOB is to interpret the constitution and decide people's rights in accordance with that document (and with more recent law.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 6 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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rehmwa 2 #137 September 16, 2005 QuoteI get the first one, but not the second. Why should churches automatically be treated as charitable organizations? Not automatically, but their charitable "activities" should have just as much right to government funding/support/etc than a secular group. Charity is charity regardless of the source. They've been biased against. Pick other things that churches get to do different with the governement (that involve tax dollars) if this one is contentious to you. Frankly on this issue, I don't think government should be into charity. It should all be private donations to whatever groups want to take it on. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #138 September 16, 2005 QuoteGo find out FOR SURE and get the policy in writing. I would do so if I end up going down that route. For the moment, what I have been led to believe is enough for me in a discussion on the web on a lazy friday avo'. QuoteMaybe you could even get on TV and sue someone - then you'd be a true american at that point. hehe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #139 September 16, 2005 QuoteHow is skipping those words lying by omission? If I'm required to say them and I simply hide at the back of the group reciting the pledge and hope none of the officials notice that I have simply remained silent while everyone else said "under God" the officials will believe I have also said "under God". They will tick their little box which says I recited the pledge in full and for all the world would think I said them. That is allowing people to believe something that is not true. That is lying by omission. That may not be important to you, but I hold truth and honor in very high regard; especially truth to myself and especially during such serious ceremonies as a naturalization ceremony. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #140 September 16, 2005 QuoteShall we remove the reference to God/Creator from the Declaration of Independence too? What in my post gave you the impression that I would think that is a good idea? I don't think changing an original founding document is a good idea... where as I am not overly opposed to changing something that did not exist before the 40's and was last changed in the 50's... I do have a problem with where do you draw the line from a practical stand point... phase out IGWT from the currency, OK, wholesale change costing a bunch on money, no. Religion is a personal thing, or should be... the faithful should not need the government to maintain their faith, and the non-beleivers (or believer in something else) shouldn't have it forced upon them by the government either. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #141 September 16, 2005 QuoteNot automatically, but their charitable "activities" should have just as much right to government funding/support/etc than a secular group. Charity is charity regardless of the source. They've been biased against. Pick other things that churches get to do different with the governement (that involve tax dollars) if this one is contentious to you. OK, I guess I understand that. We'd just have to define "charity" to include and exclude certain classes of activity. e.g. Counseling related to ending drug addiction - charity. Counseling related to ending atheism - not charity. QuoteFrankly on this issue, I don't think government should be into charity. It should all be private donations to whatever groups want to take it on. I agree for the most part. I don't really have a problem with charities operating outside the tax code as long as they meet certain criteria. e.g. if 80% of their gross income goes directly to helping whatever social issue(s) they're working on and 20% or less to overhead. I just don't want to see it as a tax shelter. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StevePhelps 0 #142 September 16, 2005 Okay, but the premise is still the same as I see it. You don't like refrence to God/Creator in anything that has to do with our government. You say, IF it is original it can stay. .. why is that aceptable and something from the 40s or 50s is not? I'm missing your point I guess. What about government buildings built this century? If they have religous inscriptions on them should we tear them down or sand blast them off? Just curious as to where you'd draw the line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,587 #143 September 16, 2005 How are they not exempt? All of the church-based charities I'm familiar with are tax-exempt (and my dad, whose mail I take care of, is solicited by most of them because he is very generous). Money that is given to church is tax-exempt as well. When it's a good church, then a noticeable portion of that goes on to direct charities, rather than new cars and church dining halls. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StevePhelps 0 #144 September 16, 2005 QuoteMoney that is given to church is tax-exempt as well. When it's a good church, then a noticeable portion of that goes on to direct charities, rather than new cars and church dining halls. Wendy W. Really? I've been a pastor for over 20 years and I seldom see more that 10-15% go to missions/charities in ANY church I know. The majority is spent on building, staff, equipment, etc. I'm not saying that is wrong (although I do believe we waste too much "church" money on buildings, but that is another topic) I'm simply saying most churches DON'T give MOST of their money away to charities. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,587 #145 September 16, 2005 When our church was operating regularly (maybe this is a clue as to why), we were at 20+%, and heading for 30. In better-attended years, we were trying for 50%. We had the benefit of a building in good condition in those days, however. We still donate most of the money, but that's because we sold the building, and are giving away the proceeds. But we only meet a few times a year. 10-15% isn't bad. When my dad was going to a large mainstream church in Oklahoma, they were at 4%, and complaining about that. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #146 September 16, 2005 You are so full of yourself ........"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #147 September 16, 2005 QuoteQuotewow, pretty soon the American flag will be offend someone. Why do people keep trying to keep God out of everything, and then run to Him when something goes wrong? I don't try to keep god out of everything, just out of the things that I participate in. And no, I don't change tunes when things turn south. Blues, Dave So if you participate in something I do, I have to follow your religion that is no religion. Now I understand"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #148 September 16, 2005 QuoteQuotewow, pretty soon the American flag will be offend someone. Why do people keep trying to keep God out of everything, and then run to Him when something goes wrong? It's called separation of church and state. Your words, it is not in the constitution"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #149 September 16, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuotewow, pretty soon the American flag will be offend someone. Why do people keep trying to keep God out of everything, and then run to Him when something goes wrong? I don't try to keep god out of everything, just out of the things that I participate in. And no, I don't change tunes when things turn south. Blues, Dave So if you participate in something I do, I have to follow your religion that is no religion. Now I understand Nope, not at all. One of the great things about invisibility is you can imagine he's there without me having to acknowledge the same. Now if you start holding bible study in the middle of the dropzone, don't be surprized if I walk away and go manifest for a load. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #150 September 16, 2005 >What is happening today is judges making law and however you look at it that was never the intent. >The social engineering some of them are doing today has to be stopped ... Oh please. If a future Supreme Court decides abortion is illegal, and creates new law while forcing their view of morality on america, you'll be applauding them for 'protecting the rights of the unborn' or something. Their JOB is to interpret the constitution and decide people's rights in accordance with that document (and with more recent law.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
