The pledge ruled unconstitutional in public schools

[kallend 2,146]

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I understand what you are saying but this country was founded as a Christian nation. Just as other countries tie themselves to othre religions.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Ratified by the US Senate and signed by President John Adams, 1797.

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When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

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We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

So where does it say anything about Christianity or Jesus in your quotes. "Nature's God" could refer to Wiccan.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,146]

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Look, I do not want or intend to push religion down someone's throat. But this country is a representitive republic. The intention of this form of government is to have the majority decide. Not a dam judge

Umm, which consitution have you been reading? Certainly not the one for the USA, which has judges checking the authority of the ligislature, and specifically guarantees many freedoms for its citizens.

Some of the original colonists got onto floating bathtubs to travel thousands of miles to escape the dominant religion of their homeland. Couple that with a fear of an overly powerful central government and you'll see why the Bill of Rights was needed to get states to ratify. And those people did not want the feds preaching one religion to them.

The majority is not supposed to decide what rights the citizens enjoy, though in practice the judges have tended to reflect the current views. Hence blacks were second class citizens, then women still were, and now gays are.

If you have looked further down the thread you would see I found my mistake, howerer, your post I do not entirely agree with etiher.

Judges are supposed to gauge law against the constitution, not creat law from the bench to correct what they see as a wrong.

What is happening today is judges making law and however you look at it that was never the intent The social engineering some of them are doing today has to be stopped ...

Is the "right to privacy" social engineering? Or is it a natural right not enumerated in the Constitution or Bill of Rights except in the Xth amendment? Or something else altogether?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

Do you always think around the fringes

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rasmack 0]

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Judges are supposed to gauge law against the constitution, not creat law from the bench to correct what they see as a wrong.

What is happening today is judges making law and however you look at it that was never the intent The social engineering some of them are doing today has to be stopped ...

Hmm... Isn't that the fundamental concept of common law? Weakly formulated legislation leaving the judiciary to formulate precedence.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[lurch 0]

Nightingale:
I understand quite well. Personally I refuse to pledge allegiance to anything, or any gods. I first expressed my will in the matter in 5th grade by standing quietly when everyone else did but refusing to participate in what I saw as mindless group-response rote-recital. I despise group behavior...
So I just stood there, said nothing and didn't do the whole fake patriotism hand over heart crap, for which I was promptly physically attacked by some shithead in my class who, apparently feeling he had the will of the classroom behind him granting him authority, loudly commanded me to put my hand over my heart, NOW with the rest of us and recite the pledge like I was supposed to.
I declined.
The individual immediately charged across the room and attacked me.
Angered, I dropped the sonofabitch with a kick to the kneecap after taking a punch to the head as punishment for failure to comply. Ah, the land of the free...yeah right.
In school I took a LOT of flak as well as physical attack for refusing to participate in collective behavior.
You all probably remember the rules in school, self-defense is forbidden, I resisted and hit back, ergo I am fighting, ergo I must be suspended.
Needless to say I've had little but contempt for most administrative structures since then. And nothing but contempt for people such as my attacker who just can't stand individualism disobedience or nonconformity.
I still feel outraged every time I think about that one. Who the fuck did that little shit think he was? The class patriotic morality enforcer?
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[kallend 2,146]

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Do you always think around the fringes

What is the fringe? Privacy? the Bill of Rights?

Why not answer the question?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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Do you always think around the fringes

What is the fringe? Privacy? the Bill of Rights?

Why not answer the question?

You and I think about and look at things from differnent points of view. While I think I know what you are asking you typically are not coming at a subject from the same perspective as I so. Instead of taking the thread in a direction you want to go I choose to ignore you.

But, to not avoid, you insinuate, via your questions, that I somehow do not support the bill or rights or privacy which is not the case. But in the context of the pledge, where do you think these topics apply when looked at from the perspective of judges making law?

While you may not agree with laws or actions of the legislative brach of the governemtn one can and should not agree with judges making or changing or modifying laws from the bench (abuse of power). If you do not agree you change it. Now, if a law is unconstitutional, that is when, and only then, the courts should rule.

The courts out east saying a state government must make a law recognising gay marraige is and outrage. (not saying I agree or disagree with such a law).

Florida supreem court adjusting state created election laws created a mess that is still causing problems.

Courts establishing crazy seperations interpitations to suit thier beliefs.

Out constitution is NOT a living document. To look at it as such will destroy it.

That being said, the libs can't except that, hence the importance of the courts to them well sorry,
elections have results and GWB got elected and gets to choose. That is one reason he got elected!!

And don't talk to me about extreem because Joice Bater Ginsburg (sp) is the most extreem one on the court!!

.......talk about getting off subject but I feel better

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

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I understand what you are saying but this country was founded as a Christian nation. Just as other countries tie themselves to othre religions.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Ratified by the US Senate and signed by President John Adams, 1797.

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When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

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We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

So where does it say anything about Christianity or Jesus in your quotes. "Nature's God" could refer to Wiccan.

Where does your quote say that the nation was not founded under the Christian religion? It doesn't - it states that the *GOVERNMENT* of the United States is not founded on religion, which is true and is confirmed by the language of the 1st Amendment.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,146]

Government is of, by and for the people.

You may be forgiven for forgetting that. Even our elected officials forget that sometimes.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Where does your quote say that the nation was not founded under the Christian religion? It doesn't - it states that the *GOVERNMENT* of the United States is not founded on religion, which is true and is confirmed by the language of the 1st Amendment.

Yeah, that about sums it up.

Public schools are government run. Therefore, no religion.

good on you.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[kallend 2,146]

Nice rant. Fine, I accept that you can't answer the question.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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The whole discussion is kind of dumb. I'm not a spiritual person and I won't take an oath involving God or any other supposed deity, but I don't care in the least whether someone else does.

At worst, the "one nation under God" phrase sounds kind of silly to me because (to me, anyway) it is the equivalent of saying "one nation under The Easter Bunny". But hey, if anyone wants a God or two or three in their life, that's fine with me.

There are far more important issues to be concerned with. Anyone who wants to center their lives around eliminating religious references from anything funded by tax dollars must either have very few cares in their day-to-day life or they have a very bizarre obsession with the whole deal.

As far as anyone being offended by either the absence of, or inclusion of a reference to God in the pledge of allegiance, my take on it is that they get offended waaaaaaaaay too easily.

Same goes for prayer in schools. The whole issue is silly because nobody can stop anybody from praying in their mind. Who cares whether it's verbal or not.

If someone wants to go after a religion/government issue that has some sort of substance, they should go after the tax exempt status of church-owned property instead of getting bent out of shape over a few silly words.

Walt

BINGO - the whole thing is a silly waste of energy and $$$ to keep people's feelings from being hurt.

I'm not an atheist or religious (it's agnostic or, even better, I'm a confirmed "Apathetic" tm - if we were put here, then we should be decent to each other, if evolved without assistance, then that's different - we should be decent to each other. If you have REAL morals, it shouldn't matter if there is a god or not. It's about being a good person, not trying to get a reward.), but I don't participate because that would be insincere and disrespectful of those that are religious - and I admire people who are quietly faithful and use that as a basis for being better people - whatever it takes is fine with me.

The pledge - Putting in the "under God" part was to differentiate us from the communists and likely made sense back then. Today, not so much. Who cares though? In or out, it's way low in the priority list. Let's get to it once other, more important things get addressed.

(I also think most self proclaimed atheists aren't such at all, they are mainly Anti-religionists - we have a ton here. There's a difference. If they seem to have an ax to grind, then they probably do. If they live and let live, then they are probably sincere in their position.)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GTAVercetti 0]

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The courts out east saying a state government must make a law recognising gay marraige is and outrage. (not saying I agree or disagree with such a law).

Florida supreem court adjusting state created election laws created a mess that is still causing problems.

Courts establishing crazy seperations interpitations to suit thier beliefs.

Out constitution is NOT a living document. To look at it as such will destroy it.

That being said, the libs can't except that, hence the importance of the courts to them well sorry,
elections have results and GWB got elected and gets to choose. That is one reason he got elected!!

And don't talk to me about extreem because Joice Bater Ginsburg (sp) is the most extreem one on the court!!

.......talk about getting off subject but I feel better

Just quoting part cause it is long.

I actually understand what you are saying...I think. But it is misled in this case.

It SEEMS as if the judges are writing a law saying that the Pledge cannot be said in school. However they are not. They are simply making the actions of a PUBLIC school appeal to the Constitutional idea of separation of church and state.

Now, if a judge came out and said that "No bikes shall be ridden to school" THAT would be a creation of a law.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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BINGO - the whole thing is a silly waste of energy and $$$ to keep people's feelings from being hurt.

I'm not an atheist or religious, but I don't participate because that would be insincere and disrespectful of those that are religious. Putting in the "under God" part was to differentiate us from the communists and likely made sense back then. Today, not so much. Who cares though? In or out, it's way low in the priority list. Let's get to it once other, more important things get addressed.

(I also think most self proclaimed atheists aren't such at all, they are mainly Anti-religionists - we have a ton here. There's a difference. If they seem to have an ax to grind, then they probably do. If they live and let live, then they are probably sincere in their position.)

I concur. Even though I argue in this thread, it is because I have time to spare.

But to spend so much energy in the real wolrd on what is ultimately not a big deal is just plain silly. There are more important things that need to be done.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[mnealtx 0]

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Where does your quote say that the nation was not founded under the Christian religion? It doesn't - it states that the *GOVERNMENT* of the United States is not founded on religion, which is true and is confirmed by the language of the 1st Amendment.

Yeah, that about sums it up.

Public schools are government run. Therefore, no religion.

good on you.

Re-read the First, that is NOT what the amendment says - and the reason we're having the differences of opinion.

*Edit to add*

The First Amendment states:

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

This means that Congress cannot pass a law saying, for example, that Catholicism is the recognized religion of the United States. It does NOT mean that religious icons, prayers, et al cannot be located, displayed, uttered, etc. in a government venue.

Recent decisions stating such are the examples of judicial activism and "creating law from the bench" that are referenced in the other post, above, and in my opinion are examples of laws "repugnant to the Constitution" as mentioned in Madison vs. Marbury.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Where does your quote say that the nation was not founded under the Christian religion? It doesn't - it states that the *GOVERNMENT* of the United States is not founded on religion, which is true and is confirmed by the language of the 1st Amendment.

Yeah, that about sums it up.

Public schools are government run. Therefore, no religion.

good on you.

Re-read the First, that is NOT what the amendment says - and the reason we're having the differences of opinion.

I quoted too much then. I was not refering to the first, but the fact that you said (actaully Kallend, actually John Adams) that the Government is not a Christian government.

Therefore, a public school and the pledge should not ascribe to one type of faith (a monotheistic one).

All we have to do is take it out and more on to the next idiotic argument brought about because PC bullshit from the religious and atheist zealots.

The commies are no danger to us anymore. God won.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[rehmwa 2]

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I first expressed my will in the matter in 5th grade... I was promptly physically attacked ...Angered, I dropped the sonofabitch with a kick to the kneecap .....
I still feel outraged every time I think about that one. Who the fuck did that little shit think he was? The class patriotic morality enforcer?

It was the 5th grade. Isn't it time to let it go? Or was this just a couple years ago?

(standing quietly/respectfully while others do their thing was a mature way to handle it for a 5th grader. looks like another breakdown in the teachers knowing right from wrong.)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mr2mk1g 10]

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God won.

Capitalism won. Many consider God to be loosing to Capitalism also.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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BINGO - the whole thing is a silly waste of energy and $$$ to keep people's feelings from being hurt.

Guess 'dem niggers better just go back to sitting quietly at the back of the bus. It's only their feelings that'll be hurt afterall.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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BINGO - the whole thing is a silly waste of energy and $$$ to keep people's feelings from being hurt.

Guess 'dem niggers better just go back to sitting quietly at the back of the bus. It's only their feelings that'll be hurt afterall.

Did you just compare slavery and racism to the Pledge of Allegiance?

Not even the same ballpark. Or sport.

Oh and the God won part was because that is why the Under god went in in the first place...to show us capitalists as having god on our side...as opposed to those Godless Reds.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[mr2mk1g 10]

No, I compared racist discrimination to religious discrimination. They seem pretty similar to me.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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No, I compared racist discrimination to religious discrimination. They seem pretty similar to me.

Well, only if you were REQUIRED to say the pledge perhaps. Some schools do that. Mine never did.

But even then, can you really say that being forced to sit in the back of a bus, drinking from different fountains, and being treated like a second class citizen is the same as saying a few words which may mean nothing to you?

I can't.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[kallend 2,146]

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No, I compared racist discrimination to religious discrimination. They seem pretty similar to me.

Well, only if you were REQUIRED to say the pledge perhaps. Some schools do that. Mine never did.

But even then, can you really say that being forced to sit in the back of a bus, drinking from different fountains, and being treated like a second class citizen is the same as saying a few words which may mean nothing to you?

I can't.

When we went on field trips in high school, the back of the bus was the cool place to sit.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mr2mk1g 10]

My life plans may still involve my emigration to the US. Should I go down this route I would be required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in full on naturalization. As I do not recognize a Judo/Christian deity I guess I'm not welcome.

That's fair enough – it's your country you can accept whoever you want. I just find it a little odd that your country also claims not to discriminate between people of different faiths while also prohibiting the acceptance of people who don't recognize a "God".

But as I said, it's your country, you can treat minorities any way you like... just don't expect me to buy claims that you consider all men to be equal.

Discrimination is discrimination. It matters not if it is creed, colour or class.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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My life plans may still involve my emigration to the US. Should I go down this route I would be required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in full on naturalization. As I do not recognize a Judo/Christian deity I guess I'm not welcome.

That's fair enough – it's your country you can accept whoever you want. I just find it a little odd that your country also claims not to discriminate between people of different faiths while also prohibiting the acceptance of people who don't recognize a "God".

But as I said, it's your country, you can treat minorities any way you like... just don't expect me to buy claims that you consider all men to be equal.

Discrimination is discrimination. It matters not if it is creed, colour or class.

Heres the thing: I don't care. Not about what you said, but about the pledge. I am not religious for various reasons. I am arguing most because I like it. It can stay as it is or go. Whatever. If the words have no meaning to you, who cares if you say them? Now, if someone said, "Okay, after you say the pledge you must kiss the ring of the Cardinal and then proclaim Jesus as your savior" I might have a problem. But they do not.

Contrary to belief, atheists and those who are not Christian are not USUALLY persecuted here for their beliefs (or lack thereof). Not anymore so than in ANY place in the world. There is intolerance everywhere and we are not free of it here. However, you will not find yourself turned down for a job for religious reasons. If you are, that is illegal. The question is not supposed to even be asked.

to me, getting mad because you have to say "under God" is like getting mad if someone makes you say "I like to eat dirt" when in fact you do not. Who cares? you know it is not true, and that is what matters.

I am betting too, that you could skip the "under God' part and no one would notice.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.