"You'll be on your own"

[mnealtx 0]

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All you sheeple planning on the .gov to save you in the event of a disaster better wake up.

The .gov is not responsible for your well being, Democrat or Republican no matter what they'd like you to think or you would like to believe.

.

Then the .gov should stop using my tax money to pay for FEMA and DHS, and allow me to use it for my own preparations. As long as these agencies exist and have a mission to deal with disasters, it is a reasonable expectation that they will perform.

Cool - can I get back the money that pays welfare for people that are physically able to work, but refuse to?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Yup, a unit that already has all of it's equipment and supplies in one place

There was plenty of advance notice of the storm to make that happen, yet no one did. What is your point?

[mnealtx 0]

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Did you see all the city and school busses flooded. The local gov't dropped the ball. It's like pulling low and complaining about a bad spot.

I don't remember saying the local government was without blame. Could you be so kind as to link to that particular post of mine?

Unless, of course, you are just putting words in my mouth.

I've not seen you make any mention of the city or state governments in this thread....the only people you've been blaming is fedgov....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I've not seen you make any mention of the city or state governments in this thread....the only people you've been blaming is fedgov....

You might find this hard to believe, but immediately following a hurricane of Katrina's magnitude, local governments (which include state governments when you consider the size of the affected region) are not going to be able to operate anywhere near maximum efficiency. It is the federal governments responsibility to step up and help out. That is why I am more vocal of the federal failures.

[kallend 2,146]

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All you sheeple planning on the .gov to save you in the event of a disaster better wake up.

The .gov is not responsible for your well being, Democrat or Republican no matter what they'd like you to think or you would like to believe.

.

Then the .gov should stop using my tax money to pay for FEMA and DHS, and allow me to use it for my own preparations. As long as these agencies exist and have a mission to deal with disasters, it is a reasonable expectation that they will perform.

Cool - can I get back the money that pays welfare for people that are physically able to work, but refuse to?

OK by me.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,146]

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I've not seen you make any mention of the city or state governments in this thread....the only people you've been blaming is fedgov....

You might find this hard to believe, but immediately following a hurricane of Katrina's magnitude, local governments (which include state governments when you consider the size of the affected region) are not going to be able to operate anywhere near maximum efficiency. It is the federal governments responsibility to step up and help out. That is why I am more vocal of the federal failures.

Correct - FEMA's (and DHS's) mission is very clear in that respect.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TypicalFish 0]

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They knew what was going to happen. Funding was requested to help mitigate the situation. Funding was denied.

This is not quite true... Over a billion dollars for just such purposes was in the highway bill that just passed; though obviously it is too late.

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET

[billvon 3,111]

>SOME blame, yes....I'm certainly not saying FEMA wasn't at least
>partially at fault - but some people seem to think it bears ALL of the
> blame....

I agree; there were several failures here.

>It strikes me as strange that people seem to think a federal agency
> can act faster than local agencies...and that the federal agency
> should bear most of the blame.

Local agencies are always the first line of defense. However, sometimes they are overwhelmed. Sometimes they don't work as well as planned. Sometimes they are destroyed. That's where FEMA comes in. It's essentially a backup for major disasters, one that cannot be handled at a local level.

[mnealtx 0]

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>SOME blame, yes....I'm certainly not saying FEMA wasn't at least
>partially at fault - but some people seem to think it bears ALL of the
> blame....

I agree; there were several failures here.

>It strikes me as strange that people seem to think a federal agency
> can act faster than local agencies...and that the federal agency
> should bear most of the blame.

Local agencies are always the first line of defense. However, sometimes they are overwhelmed. Sometimes they don't work as well as planned. Sometimes they are destroyed. That's where FEMA comes in. It's essentially a backup for major disasters, one that cannot be handled at a local level.

No arguments there, Bill...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[nate_1979 9]

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I've not seen you make any mention of the city or state governments in this thread....the only people you've been blaming is fedgov....

You might find this hard to believe, but immediately following a hurricane of Katrina's magnitude, local governments (which include state governments when you consider the size of the affected region) are not going to be able to operate anywhere near maximum efficiency. It is the federal governments responsibility to step up and help out. That is why I am more vocal of the federal failures.

And I think that its more of a local problem, because had the LOCAL gov't taken care of their people before it was too late, the federal gov't would of had less to screw up It would have also helped if the state didnt wait so damn long to declare a state of emergency.. Local leadership really dropped the ball. Federal gov't responded slow. The slow response would have been less deadly by far had the local gov't done their job.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Local leadership really dropped the ball. Federal gov't responded slow. The slow response would have been less deadly by far had the local gov't done their job.

Again, I haven't heard anyone say local officials did everything right. I have heard a lot of people make excuses why the victims are to blame. I can't follow their broken logic, but I read their arguments all the same.

[nate_1979 9]

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Local leadership really dropped the ball. Federal gov't responded slow. The slow response would have been less deadly by far had the local gov't done their job.

Again, I haven't heard anyone say local officials did everything right. I have heard a lot of people make excuses why the victims are to blame. I can't follow their broken logic, but I read their arguments all the same.

The people who wanted out, got out, including the group that I read about awhile back who got out on a stolen school bus (since the city didnt get them running on their own).

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[bodypilot90 0]

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You might find this hard to believe, but immediately following a hurricane of Katrina's magnitude, local governments (which include state governments when you consider the size of the affected region) are not going to be able to operate anywhere near maximum efficiency. It is the federal governments responsibility to step up and help out. That is why I am more vocal of the federal failures.

simply said the local and state messed it up for everyone, I have yet to hear you say they dropped the ball and did nothing, and then whined when they did not do their job. The state and local level need to ask for help. That is the way it works. Letting busses swim instead of using it to transport people is criminal.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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The people who wanted out, got out

I have to ask--

Where did you come up with this idea? Did you poll all the victims in NOLA? Pretty impressive given the problems they are having with communication and logistics. Could you maybe post your poll in its entirety? Or are you just making up rhetoric as you go?

[billvon 3,111]

>simply said the local and state messed it up for everyone, I have
>yet to hear you say they dropped the ball . . .

The local, state and federal government dropped the ball. People should have evacuated on their own. Cops should have comandeered buses. FEMA shouldn't have stopped aid from getting there. Evacuation should have started earlier. Federal response should have started earlier. Bush screwed up. Nagin screwed up. Brown, Blanco and Chertoff screwed up.

Now that we have blamed everyone, is everyone happy? Or must we now start in with "but Nagin was _more_ screwed up than Bush!"

[tso-d_chris 0]

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simply said the local and state messed it up for everyone, I have yet to hear you say they dropped the ball and did nothing, and then whined when they did not do their job.

The did nothing except evacuate 95% of the city's population, which, simply said, did not mess things up for everyone.

When FEMA failed to run with the ball, that messed things up for everyone that was unable to evacuate.

It is FEMA's job to respond to natural disasters. That is the way it works.

FEMA failed to do what they had to do. Everyone assumed FEMA would not be passive, and would actively assist in the immediate aftermath. The counted wrong. And American civilians, whose lives are every bit as valuable as American soldiers, died as a result.

[lawrocket 3]

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It strikes me as strange that people seem to think a federal agency can act faster than local agencies...and that the federal agency should bear most of the blame.

Until you consider that the 82nd Airborne Division can have people and equipment on the ground anywhere in the world in 18 hours. The 25th Infantry Division can be anywhere in 24 hrs.

I see no reason why the federal government should not have been able to get people and equipment on the ground in the gulf region in a similar time frame, considering neither the storm nor the flooding was a surprise.

Maybe I'm missing something. Is it really more important to be able to take over a foreign airport on short notice than to respond to a natural disaster on our home soil?

I think one thing that you fail to grasp is that we do not have a long and storied history of dropping troops and equipment into 20 feet of water. 've highlighted your mentions of "ground" and "soil." Look at that as a big difference.

The US Military is not used to putting boots on lakes or going pier-to-pier or dock-to-dock.

Add the element of water - vast and deep water, and things look much, much different from an operational standpoint.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I have heard a lot of people make excuses why the victims are to blame.

Who said that?

Derek

[billvon 3,111]

>>I have heard a lot of people make excuses why the victims are to blame.

>Who said that?

Burbleflyer, for one. "People keep pointing fingers at this .gov agency and that politician looking for a someone to blame but the blame lies ultimately with individuals who failed to prepare for the worst."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Burbleflyer, for one. "People keep pointing fingers at this .gov agency and that politician looking for a someone to blame but the blame lies ultimately with individuals who failed to prepare for the worst."

That isn't fair to the victims.

Derek

[nate_1979 9]

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I have heard a lot of people make excuses why the victims are to blame.

Who said that?

Derek

I also believe, that to an extent, many of them are. If they were just too lazy to figure out something to help themselves, then yes.

I do however understand that not *EVERYONE* was just being lazy, I understand that some people just could not get out, and our gov't did fail them.

If they could get out and just wanted to wait for the gov't to help them like they always do, screw them. Their own fault.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I think one thing that you fail to grasp is that we do not have a long and storied history of dropping troops and equipment into 20 feet of water. 've highlighted your mentions of "ground" and "soil." Look at that as a big difference.

I didn't fail to grasp that at all. They could have deployed close to NOLA, prior to flooding.

BTW I think you have completely forgotten the "long and storied history" of the Marines, who routinely train for amphibious assaults. By naming two of our military divisions, I was not implying no others had similar capabilities.

We could have had troops staged in Texas, KY, TN, arkansas, etc, so that they would be able to respond very quickly after the storm passed.

[nate_1979 9]

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I think one thing that you fail to grasp is that we do not have a long and storied history of dropping troops and equipment into 20 feet of water. 've highlighted your mentions of "ground" and "soil." Look at that as a big difference.

I didn't fail to grasp that at all. They could have deployed close to NOLA, prior to flooding.

After the storm passed, there was not major flooding.. I think at that point people thought the worst was over, then the levee broke. And prior to the flooding wasnt there still the remains of a tropical storm "close to NOLA"?

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[lawrocket 3]

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They could have deployed close to NOLA, prior to flooding.

Yep. Like where? When? How? Toss me a bone, here.

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BTW I think you have completely forgotten the "long and storied history" of the Marines, who routinely train for amphibious assaults.

While I was no Devil Dog, my understanding of these assaults are that they go from the ocean to fight on land, and not that they fight in oceans.

This is more of a MOUT environment with the added variable of destruction and water.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,111]

>are that they go from the ocean to fight on land, and not that they
>fight in oceans.

Well, right. But then again, not much of the looting took place underwater. The places they were looting (and the places that desperately needed security) were high and dry, like the convention center.