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Gawain 0
QuoteThere's been many people who've had their rights trampled on recently. The folks in prison in cuba come to mind.
I'm sure you are aware of the circumstances of which they were captured and brought to Cuba, and are aware of whom they were fighting for, and the type of training they received. Understanding that, which rights are they entitled to? Based on which set of laws?
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Regarding the American citizens: Which laws and whose rights should be pretty obvious there. Yes, I'm aware of who they are and who they were fighting for. However, they are American citizens, and therefore shouldn't be deprived of their rights without due process. Period. They are entitled to their day in court.
Regarding the other guys in cuba: The supreme court has already ruled on which laws. Our supreme court has ruled that since they're being held on what amounts to american controlled soil, they have the right to challenge their incarceration in court. I object to the US holding prisoners for years that we can't prove did anything wrong. Either put them on trial or let them go. "United States courts have jurisdiction to consider challenges to the legality of the detention of foreign nationals captured abroad in connection with hostilities and incarcerated at Guantanamo Bay."
Regarding the other guys in cuba: The supreme court has already ruled on which laws. Our supreme court has ruled that since they're being held on what amounts to american controlled soil, they have the right to challenge their incarceration in court. I object to the US holding prisoners for years that we can't prove did anything wrong. Either put them on trial or let them go. "United States courts have jurisdiction to consider challenges to the legality of the detention of foreign nationals captured abroad in connection with hostilities and incarcerated at Guantanamo Bay."
Gawain 0
QuoteRegarding the American citizens: Which laws and whose rights should be pretty obvious there. Yes, I'm aware of who they are and who they were fighting for. However, they are American citizens, and therefore shouldn't be deprived of their rights without due process. Period. They are entitled to their day in court.
The only one I'm really aware of is John Walker Lindh. He had his day in court right? The "20th" hijacker too.
QuoteRegarding the other guys in cuba: The supreme court has already ruled on which laws. Our supreme court has ruled that since they're being held on what amounts to american controlled soil, they have the right to challenge their incarceration in court. I object to the US holding prisoners for years that we can't prove did anything wrong. Either put them on trial or let them go. "United States courts have jurisdiction to consider challenges to the legality of the detention of foreign nationals captured abroad in connection with hostilities and incarcerated at Guantanamo Bay."
Firing on US troops as an act of war isn't doing anything wrong?
I wonder how many "challenges" have been filed so far. The almighty-news-media isn't covering that too much is it. Hmmm.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
billvon 3,119
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>Firing on US troops as an act of war isn't doing anything wrong?
No, it's a crime. And if you can prove it, go for it, and have them jailed for life or executed. If you can't prove it - well, we as a country place a very high value on not falsely imprisoning people.
No, it's a crime. And if you can prove it, go for it, and have them jailed for life or executed. If you can't prove it - well, we as a country place a very high value on not falsely imprisoning people.
If they fired on troops, put them on trial and convict them for it. If you don't have enough evidence to convict them, release them.
Gawain 0
RE: Nightingale
That's where we disagree. You see it as a "crime". It is part of an overall act of war, to which not every single person is tried. The Allies did not try every single member of the German Army for war crimes, and they were held prisoner for long periods without any trial or provision of protest.
You don't believe these scumbags fired on our forces? Most of these guys in Cuba were brought in from Afghanistan. We didn't just pick them off the street.
Despite that, the Supreme Court has its ruling which I disagree with, so my argument doesn't really matter.
RE: Billvon
A crime and act of war are not the same. Do you believe these people are being "falsly imprisoned"?
That's where we disagree. You see it as a "crime". It is part of an overall act of war, to which not every single person is tried. The Allies did not try every single member of the German Army for war crimes, and they were held prisoner for long periods without any trial or provision of protest.
QuoteIf they fired on troops
You don't believe these scumbags fired on our forces? Most of these guys in Cuba were brought in from Afghanistan. We didn't just pick them off the street.
Despite that, the Supreme Court has its ruling which I disagree with, so my argument doesn't really matter.
RE: Billvon
QuoteNo, it's a crime. And if you can prove it, go for it, and have them jailed for life or executed. If you can't prove it - well, we as a country place a very high value on not falsely imprisoning people.
A crime and act of war are not the same. Do you believe these people are being "falsly imprisoned"?
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
billvon 3,119
>Do you believe these people are being "falsly imprisoned"?
By the standards of our constitution - yes. Much of the argument from the pro-Gitmo crowd centers around how the constitution shouldn't apply to us in such situations.
By the standards of our constitution - yes. Much of the argument from the pro-Gitmo crowd centers around how the constitution shouldn't apply to us in such situations.
regarding false imprisonment: what we believe or don't believe is irrelevant. Beliefs can be wrong. It's what we can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that matters.
[ Most of these guys in Cuba were brought in from Afghanistan. We didn't just pick them off the street.
__________________________________________________
Well actually, we did just kinda"pick (many of)them off the street".
You do realize that many weren't *captured* by US forces in battle but rather purchased by the US,don't you?
Blues,
Cliff
__________________________________________________
Well actually, we did just kinda"pick (many of)them off the street".
You do realize that many weren't *captured* by US forces in battle but rather purchased by the US,don't you?
Blues,
Cliff
Quote[ Most of these guys in Cuba were brought in from Afghanistan. We didn't just pick them off the street.
__________________________________________________
Well actually, we did just kinda"pick (many of)them off the street".
You do realize that many weren't *captured* by US forces in battle but rather purchased by the US,don't you?
Blues,
Cliff
Shit! You can purchase Afghans? I've always wanted to have one on my mantle.
"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."
Well DUH, I have one on my couch
And I know several people who have them as pets
http://www.petoffice.co.jp/mbl/ph/zukan/dog300jpg/afghan.jpg
And I know several people who have them as pets
http://www.petoffice.co.jp/mbl/ph/zukan/dog300jpg/afghan.jpgLife is not fair and there are no guarantees...
Channman 2
>Much of the argument from the pro-gitmo crowd....
Much of us perfer Club-Gitmo. Ok, I'll let ya get back to your discussion.
Much of us perfer Club-Gitmo. Ok, I'll let ya get back to your discussion.
jenfly00 0
I've yet to meet a single person that has had their rights trampled on in any way (and I've met quite a few people in my life)..
I was once told by a fine, upstanding young man, that he didn't believe any mass murders took place in Germany during WWII ...that it was all contrived by the Jews for political reasons.
I feel the same incredulity now as I felt then.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
jen
-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".
"O brave new world that has such people in it".
crozby 0
QuoteI've yet to meet a single person that has had their rights trampled on in any way (and I've met quite a few people in my life).
I bet you've yet to meet a terrorist too. Presumably that means they don't exist either.
What about the American citizens who've been unable to get on airplanes because they happen to have the same name as someone else suspected of terrorism?
Personally, I had a hell of a time renewing my driver's license because of the Patriot Act governmental hoops. There was a typo in the government's social security info on me that had my birthday wrong by one day. Because what the social security computers had and what the DMV computers had didn't match, the DMV wouldn't renew my license until it got fixed, which social security was telling me could take months. Were it not for the new hoops put in place by the Patriot Act, it wouldn't have been a problem in the first place. Just bring in an "official copy" of the birth certificate and correct the typo. Now they require the original birth certificate. Problem was that I don't have an original birth certificate. The original is sealed by court order because I was adopted. Social security was trying to tell me that I needed a damn court order to unseal the record to fix the problem (what would happen to some poor person whose original was lost or burned in a fire or something??). They also specifically told me that this new "security measure" was due to the Patriot Act. Finally, a call to my congressman and a nice little "congressional inquiry" stamp on my file got it all straightened out, Caused a lot of hassle and a lot of stress, though.
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