tso-d_chris 0 #26 September 6, 2005 QuoteQuote By the same logic, if we were a socialist state, everyone would have had a car to evacuate in and there would have been far less loss of life. The facts can be twisted too promote any political agenda you like, but the fact of the matter is that the gulf coast was hit hard by Katrina, and the city, state and federal government's blatant failure to respond in a timely and adequate manner has significantly increased the loss of life. Fixed that for ya Fair enough. I do not claim that the federal government are the only ones to blame. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,151 #27 September 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote By the same logic, if we were a socialist state, everyone would have had a car to evacuate in and there would have been far less loss of life. The facts can be twisted too promote any political agenda you like, but the fact of the matter is that the gulf coast was hit hard by Katrina, and the city, state and federal government's blatant failure to respond in a timely and adequate manner has significantly increased the loss of life. Fixed that for ya Fair enough. I do not claim that the federal government are the only ones to blame. Does it take an Einstein to realize that a CAT4 hurricane of exceptionally large size will overwhelm local resources? I think not.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #28 September 6, 2005 QuoteDoes it take an Einstein to realize that a CAT4 hurricane of exceptionally large size will overwhelm local resources? I think not. Not at all - does it take an Einstein to realize that the the LOCAL government failed to evacuate it's citizens, and that it shares in the blame of not being prepared for a disaster of this magnitude? I think not.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,151 #29 September 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteDoes it take an Einstein to realize that a CAT4 hurricane of exceptionally large size will overwhelm local resources? I think not. Not at all - does it take an Einstein to realize that the the LOCAL government failed to evacuate it's citizens, and that it shares in the blame of not being prepared for a disaster of this magnitude? I think not. I am curious - under the most favorable of circumstances (which do not apply for a CAT4 hurricane approaching) what is the capacity of the NOLA road system for evacuating the city? Would it be possible in 24 hours? I'm sure that Chicago, which only has water on one side, couldn't be evacuated in 24 hours even if everyone cooperated to the max... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #30 September 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteDoes it take an Einstein to realize that a CAT4 hurricane of exceptionally large size will overwhelm local resources? I think not. Not at all - does it take an Einstein to realize that the the LOCAL government failed to evacuate it's citizens, and that it shares in the blame of not being prepared for a disaster of this magnitude? I think not. I am curious - under the most favorable of circumstances (which do not apply for a CAT4 hurricane approaching) what is the capacity of the NOLA road system for evacuating the city? Would it be possible in 24 hours? I'm sure that Chicago, which only has water on one side, couldn't be evacuated in 24 hours even if everyone cooperated to the max And why does that excuse them from even trying, in your mind?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,151 #31 September 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDoes it take an Einstein to realize that a CAT4 hurricane of exceptionally large size will overwhelm local resources? I think not. Not at all - does it take an Einstein to realize that the the LOCAL government failed to evacuate it's citizens, and that it shares in the blame of not being prepared for a disaster of this magnitude? I think not. I am curious - under the most favorable of circumstances (which do not apply for a CAT4 hurricane approaching) what is the capacity of the NOLA road system for evacuating the city? Would it be possible in 24 hours? I'm sure that Chicago, which only has water on one side, couldn't be evacuated in 24 hours even if everyone cooperated to the max And why does that excuse them from even trying, in your mind? How do you know they didn't try? I suspect the majority did try, and most of them succeeded. I don't have the numbers, do you?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #32 September 6, 2005 >And why does that excuse them from even trying, in your mind? ?? They did try. They evacuated 95% of the people there. It's the 5% that has led to all this finger-pointing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #33 September 6, 2005 Hi Based on the demographics of this websight i find this whole thread very INTERESTING If you don't understand what this means look in mirror, look at bank account, cars, and then look at the folks that were suffering at the superdome. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #34 September 6, 2005 Quote"The projects," as they were known, were infamous for uncontrollable crime and irremediable squalor There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the deluge hit--but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from two groups: criminals--and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness. The welfare wards were a mass of sheep--on whom the incompetent administration of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves. criminals and welfare parasites ...they don't own anything living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them There is no doubt a significant overlap between these two populations--that is, a large number of people in the jails used to live in the housing projects, and vice versa This is hate spew. The author is trying to blur the lines between welfare recipients and criminals and almost put them in the same category. That last line is really something -- I'd like to see how he backs up the "large" overlap between prison and project populations. 100% pure garbage. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #35 September 6, 2005 QuoteBy the same logic, if we were a socialist state, everyone would have had a car to evacuate in and there would have been far less loss of life. Hmmm. Point to a socialist state that has ever existed where everyone had a car. It seems to me that more people use buses in those places - the same buses that were incapable of moving people out of NOLA. Quotethe federal government's blatant failure to respond in a timely and adequate manner has significantly increased the loss of life. The feds certainly have not provided the most admirable of responses. Neither did the local and state governments. I'll ask all of you who are questioning this to state what should have been done, who should have done it, and when it should have been done. Most importantly, HOW it should have been done. For example, try stating, "30,000 National Guard Troops should have been deployed to be on site in New Orleans by noon on Tuesday, August 30, 2005." Then, plan a mission for them, something more specific than "assist with the recovery." Then, backwards plan this deployment to figure out when the warning order would go out to these folks who are being deployed. Then, figure out the logistics of this. Backwards plan it, too. My point? People were unaware of the possible scope of this disaster until two days before it hit. You try coordinating federal, state and local officials and agencies, especially when the local and state agencies is going through 8 hours of hell. Recall that the 36 hours prior to this storm hitting, the agencies had their fucking hands full just trying to get people out of town! Sure, they could have foregone evacuations to plan for disaster relief, right? It's amazing how many people say, "They should have done more" without saying what should have been done, who should have done it, when it should have been done and how it should have been done! It's easy to stand here a week later and say, "they should have deployed forces to the 17th Street Canal to shore up that levee." Problem is that the situation was very fluid, no pun intended. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #36 September 6, 2005 They didnt try hard enough. They didnt follow the evacuation plans. I didnt see *ANY* news coverage that showed both incoming and outgoing lanes of the interstate evacuating people, did you? Mabey I just missed that.. (it's in their plan) ... I didnt see all those school and city buses used to evacuate people who didnt have the means to get out (i.e. personal cars) ... This is also in their plan that they just didnt do. IMO they didnt try, all the local gov't did was say *GET OUT* ... THey didnt provide any assistance, and that IS their responsibility. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #37 September 6, 2005 QuoteMy point? People were unaware of the possible scope of this disaster until two days before it hit. You try coordinating federal, state and local officials and agencies, especially when the local and state agencies is going through 8 hours of hell. Recall that the 36 hours prior to this storm hitting, the agencies had their fucking hands full just trying to get people out of town! Sure, they could have foregone evacuations to plan for disaster relief, right? That is all nice and well if the scenario could not be foreseen. But the levees breaking and most of NO being submerged is not that unlikely that it should not have been planned for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #38 September 6, 2005 QuoteHmmm. Point to a socialist state that has ever existed where everyone had a car. It seems to me that more people use buses in those places - the same buses that were incapable of moving people out of NOLA. My point was to illustrate that the facts could be twisted to promote any political agenda, not to promote socialism. I just get tired of the ignorant fools who would use this catastrophe as an opportunity to do more poor/race bashing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #39 September 6, 2005 >I didnt see *ANY* news coverage that showed both incoming and >outgoing lanes of the interstate evacuating people, did you? Yes. CNN had pointers to the Louisiana State site, which showed which highways were one-way-only. >all the local gov't did was say *GET OUT* ... The primary means of evacuation (per the plan) was private vehicles, so that's exactly what they _should_ say. Nagin gave the police the authority to comandeer any vehicle that was needed for the evacuation; it looks like this was not taken advantage of, which was one of the problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #40 September 6, 2005 Quote>I didnt see *ANY* news coverage that showed both incoming and >outgoing lanes of the interstate evacuating people, did you? Yes. CNN had pointers to the Louisiana State site, which showed which highways were one-way-only. >all the local gov't did was say *GET OUT* ... The primary means of evacuation (per the plan) was private vehicles, so that's exactly what they _should_ say. Nagin gave the police the authority to comandeer any vehicle that was needed for the evacuation; it looks like this was not taken advantage of, which was one of the problems. OK, my bad for the interstate thing.. I just missed that, glad they got that down.. BUT, you keep leaving out the fact that BUSES are included as that primary means of evacuation, .. as pointed out in a different thread... I dont understand why you always leave that part of the plan out of the posts? FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #41 September 6, 2005 >I dont understand why you always leave that part of the plan out of the posts? ?? I'm not. Cops should have comandeered the buses to get people out. They didn't; only a few buses were used to evacuate people. That was a mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #42 September 6, 2005 QuoteBut the levees breaking and most of NO being submerged is not that unlikely that it should not have been planned for. It was planned for. Step one of the plan - GET THE HELL OUTTA THERE. Step two of the plan was not "Maintain large stocks of provisions in the event it happens." It makes no sense to have provisions either destroyed or inaccessible because of hurricane winds and/or flooding, does it. Therefore, it needs to be moved in. Also, it's tough to move anything through flooded streets or waterways that are littered with boats and barges. The only way to do it effecively is via helicopter, which were all 300 miles away to escape the storm, right? So, you gotta find a way to bring in people, food, water, fuel, etc. into a place that is fundamentally inaccessible by anything but air - and, you gotta get the air power in. Would it have been great to have a fleet there following the storm? Yes. but it isn't always possible. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #43 September 6, 2005 much more accurate now Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
