who to blame for katrina?

[davedlg 0]

I'm afraid I'm going to send this thread off to S.C. by posting this but I just got this interesting article.
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313

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PHILADELPHIA Even though Hurricane Katrina has moved well north of the city, the waters may still keep rising in New Orleans. That's because Lake Pontchartrain continues to pour through a two-block-long break in the main levee, near the city's 17th Street Canal. With much of the Crescent City some 10 feet below sea level, the rising tide may not stop until it's level with the massive lake.

New Orleans had long known it was highly vulnerable to flooding and a direct hit from a hurricane. In fact, the federal government has been working with state and local officials in the region since the late 1960s on major hurricane and flood relief efforts. When flooding from a massive rainstorm in May 1995 killed six people, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA.

Over the next 10 years, the Army Corps of Engineers, tasked with carrying out SELA, spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building pumping stations, with $50 million in local aid. But at least $250 million in crucial projects remained, even as hurricane activity in the Atlantic Basin increased dramatically and the levees surrounding New Orleans continued to subside

Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars.

Newhouse News Service, in an article posted late Tuesday night at The Times-Picayune Web site, reported: "No one can say they didn't see it coming. ... Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious questions are being asked about the lack of preparation."

In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to a Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness.

On June 8, 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; told the Times-Picayune: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."

Also that June, with the 2004 hurricane season starting, the Corps' project manager Al Naomi went before a local agency, the East Jefferson Levee Authority, and essentially begged for $2 million for urgent work that Washington was now unable to pay for. From the June 18, 2004 Times-Picayune:

"The system is in great shape, but the levees are sinking. Everything is sinking, and if we don't get the money fast enough to raise them, then we can't stay ahead of the settlement," he said. "The problem that we have isn't that the levee is low, but that the federal funds have dried up so that we can't raise them."

The panel authorized that money, and on July 1, 2004, it had to pony up another $250,000 when it learned that stretches of the levee in Metairie had sunk by four feet. The agency had to pay for the work with higher property taxes. The levee board noted in October 2004 that the feds were also now not paying for a hoped-for $15 million project to better shore up the banks of Lake Pontchartrain.

The 2004 hurricane season was the worst in decades. In spite of that, the federal government came back this spring with the steepest reduction in hurricane and flood-control funding for New Orleans in history. Because of the proposed cuts, the Corps office there imposed a hiring freeze. Officials said that money targeted for the SELA project -- $10.4 million, down from $36.5 million -- was not enough to start any new jobs.

There was, at the same time, a growing recognition that more research was needed to see what New Orleans must do to protect itself from a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. But once again, the money was not there. As the Times-Picayune reported last Sept. 22:

"That second study would take about four years to complete and would cost about $4 million, said Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi. About $300,000 in federal money was proposed for the 2005 fiscal-year budget, and the state had agreed to match that amount. But the cost of the Iraq war forced the Bush administration to order the New Orleans district office not to begin any new studies, and the 2005 budget no longer includes the needed money, he said."

The Senate was seeking to restore some of the SELA funding cuts for 2006. But now it's too late.

One project that a contractor had been racing to finish this summer: a bridge and levee job right at the 17th Street Canal, site of the main breach on Monday.

The Newhouse News Service article published Tuesday night observed, "The Louisiana congressional delegation urged Congress earlier this year to dedicate a stream of federal money to Louisiana's coast, only to be opposed by the White House. ... In its budget, the Bush administration proposed a significant reduction in funding for southeast Louisiana's chief hurricane protection project. Bush proposed $10.4 million, a sixth of what local officials say they need."

Local officials are now saying, the article reported, that had Washington heeded their warnings about the dire need for hurricane protection, including building up levees and repairing barrier islands, "the damage might not have been nearly as bad as it turned out to be."

[lawrocket 3]

So, according to those numbers, 480 million dollars was spent during ten years. It appears that this 480 million dollars that was spent was absolutely useless, save for keeping people employed. Why was it useless? Because I guess that they needed another 250 million dollars to do any good with it.

This article has some amazing language in it. Note that when any agency other than the Feds (especially GWB) was footing the bill, they "ponied up" or "had to pay." Meanwhile, the Feds are treated as if they are an endless gravy train.

To summarize the article, it says the following:

"Money was pouring in from the federal government to prevent this disaster from happening, a pittance of $480 million in ten years. Then, George W. Bush cut the money for it to spend on Iraq and the war on terror. Then George W. Bush cut taxes. Deciding that wars in foreign lands and tax cuts for the welathiest 1 percent are more important than the safety of a great city, George W. Bush directed its limitless funds that the federal government has away from the levees.

"This resulted in municipalitilties having to 'pony up' huge sums of money for their own protection. Since the feds wouldn't part with a measley $250 million, the localities had no choice but to nearly bankrupt themselves with the exhorbitant sum of $2,250,000 to protect themselves.

"Then George W. Bush, needing money for the Iraq war, failed to fund a four year, $4 million study. Because George W. Bush cut the money, a hiring freeze precluded these things. One contractor was actually rushing to finish a project on the 17th Street Canal, but could not finish it in time because of George W. Bush's war on terror and tax cuts for the wealthy.

"Had George W. Bush's not made those budget cuts, New Orleans could have been able to resist this storm and the damage within the next 15-20 years. Now, in hindsight, had George W. Bush not cut the budget, there was a small chance that New Orleans could have been spared the extent of flooding it sees to today."

The article just seems to indicate that the Feds have an affirmative duty to pay for these improvements and studies, but that the poor localities had to "pony" up money.

Interesting, isn't it?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Diversgodown 0]

I knew some freaks were going to preach that Mardi Gra was to blame. When I went there 5 years ago there are all these bible beaters with signs preaching god. I had a good time playing with them!!!

***Glory Favors the Bold***

[Andy_Copland 0]

I didnt really pay attention to the hurricane because its America, the richest country in the world, you have shelters, transport, food, water oil, everything!

Now the poorest people in america are suffering and im wondering where the help is, why wasnt the government prepared for this?

Its a bloody shame

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[kallend 2,146]

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One thing to consider when blaming the lack of preparation on the part of the government is how expensive it can be to be prepared for every contingency (including something that seems likely like a hurricane targeting NOLA).

It seems like a waste of tax dollars. Kind of like how people talk about wasting their insurance money, and saying that the companies are all a ripoff.

Until you need it, and then you find out that you economized too much.

Who's to blame? shit happens. If we focus on who's to blame we won't spend as much time on how we can prevent a similar problem if one comes up the Houston Ship Channel, or NYC, or something like that.

Wendy W.

We have spent $Billions on the Homeland Security Agency, and in it's first real test it failed miserably to cope with the aftermath of a disaster that could be seen coming for days ahead of time. NOLA is a shambles and the situation deteriorates by the hour.

Fortunately HSA rules have us well protected from attack by model rockets or octagenarians carrying their Medals of Honor on airliners.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[freeflynick 0]

I would have to blame the worst environmental polluters, of which the US is either No.1 or damned close to it. They have caused the global warming, which is heating up the seas and oceans, which are in turn fueling these larger than normal weather systems. If they would start putting the same kinda money they are pouring into the oil-based war in Iraq (which is hundreds of billions of dollars), and the money they will have to pay to rebuild Louisiana, into ways to start reducing the damage they are causing to the environment, they might to be able to help reduce the devastation that these climate changes are causing, which is going to keep getting worse and worse.

"The day after tomorrow" movie is based on some pretty sound scientific predictions. It may not cause the instantaneous changes shown in the movie, but the changes ARE going to be huge, and they will be coming soon.....well within most of our lifetimes.....

Have a nice day!!

Hobbes: "How come we play 'War' and not 'Peace'?"
Calvin: "Too few role models."

[Laurel 0]

My angry $0.02 worth...

I was born and raised in Louisiana and lived in New Orleans and ever since I can remember, we were very aware of the corrupt politicians in New Orleans. Politicians were so brazen to say that they "lost" $9 million for a repaving project and the people of New Orleans accepted this as an answer and re-elected the same politicians. Note that our former governor, Edwin Edwards, is in jail for stealing money from the state. Also, we all have known for a long time that there were weak spots in the levees and no one would repair them because the politicians pocket the money.

A lot of people are shocked by the lawlessness of the city, but we Louisianians have known for a long time that New Orleans is a very dangerous city. I have known 10+ people to be mugged and every single one has happened in New Orleans. This type of behavior - looting and shooting is, sadly, part of the tapestry of NOLA. I blame so many people for this travesty; I blame the criminal politicians and the people who kept re-electing them. I blame the politicians and leaders of the community for not craking down on crime and allowing even their police department to get away with drug dealing and other crimes in the city. I know that was a harsh statement to make about the police department, but it is true! There was a time when the people of NOLA were more afraid of the police than a mugger.

New Orleans is practically a third-world nation and was so before the storm.

.....................................................................
PMS#28, Pelogrande Rodriguez#1074
My Pink M

[AggieDave 6]

I blame Oklahoma. That place blows...hence all the wind damage to some of the states southeast and east of it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Gravitymaster 0]

It's Allahs Fault:

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Kuwaiti: 'The terrorist Katrina' is a soldier of Allah'



Special to World Tribune.com
MIDDLE EAST MEDIA RESEARCH INSTITUTE
Thursday, September 1, 2005

Muhammad Yousef Al-Mlaifi, director of the Kuwaiti Ministry of Endowment's research center, published an article titled "The Terrorist Katrina is One of the Soldiers of Allah, But Not an Adherent of Al-Qaeda."(1) the Aug. 31 edition of the Kuwaiti daily Al-Siyassa. Following are excerpts:


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"...As I watched the horrible sights of this wondrous storm, I was reminded of the Hadith of the Messenger of Allah [in the compilations] of Al-Bukhari and Abu Daoud. The Hadith says: 'The wind is of the wind of Allah, it comes from mercy or for the sake of torment. When you see it, do not curse it, [but rather] ask Allah for the good that is in it, and ask Allah for shelter from its evil.'

"When the satellite channels reported on the scope of the terrifying destruction in America [caused by] this wind, I was reminded of the words of [Prophet Muhammad]: 'The wind sends torment to one group of people, and sends mercy to others.' I do not think — and only Allah [really] knows — that this wind, which completely wiped out American cities in these days, is a wind of mercy and blessing. It is almost certain that this is a wind of torment and evil that Allah has sent to this American empire.



"But I began to ask myself: Doesn't this country [the U.S.] claim to aspire to establish justice, freedom, and equality amongst the people? Isn't this country claiming that everything it did in Afghanistan and Iraq was for truth and justice? How can it be that these American claims are untrue, when we see how good prevails in the streets of Afghanistan, and how it became an oasis of security with America's entrance there? How can these American claims in the matter of Iraq be untrue, when we see that Iraq has become the most tranquil and secure country in the world?"
"But how strange it is that after all the tremendous American achievements for the sake of humanity, these mighty winds come and evilly rip [America's] cities to shreds? Have the storms joined the Al-Qaeda terrorist organization?


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"How sad I am for America. Here it is, poor thing, trying with all its might to lower oil prices which have reached heights unprecedented in all history. Along with America's phenomenal efforts to lower the price of oil in order to salvage its declining economy and its currency — that is still falling due to the 'smart' policy America is implementing in the world — comes this storm, the fruit of Allah's planning, so that [the price of] a barrel of oil will increase further still. By Allah, this is not schadenfreude.
"Oh honored gentlemen, I began to read about these winds, and I was surprised to discover that the American websites that are translated [into Arabic] are talking about the fact that that the storm Katrina is the fifth equatorial storm to strike Florida this year... and that a large part of the U.S. is subject every year to many storms that extract [a price of] dead, and completely destroy property. I said, Allah be praised, until when will these successive catastrophes strike them?

"But before I went to sleep, I opened the Koran and began to read in Surat Al-R'ad ['The Thunder' chapter], and stopped at these words [of Allah]: 'The disaster will keep striking the unbelievers for what they have done, or it will strike areas close to their territory, until the promise of Allah comes to pass, for, verily, Allah will not fail in His promise.' [Koran 13:31]."

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Is it coincidental, you figure, that at the beginning stages of what we will call WWIII, we are experiencing the worst climatical events seen by us since we were all still "Children of God"

YES.

by the way, even the Old Testament deals with the idea that the world is NOT a just place. Sometimes the wicked get away with it and sometimes good people suffer.

Some people talk about karma etc., but the truth is what your Dad always told you: "Life Isn't Fair"

And why do we say we are any more or less immoral than at any point in the past? Hell, in the past there was MUCH more war (in terms of the percent of people who die in it out of the population) plus there was slavery, genocide, etc. etc.

How is it less moral now??

Oh, yeah, there were chicks flashing their boobies during Mardis Gras. That's MUCH more immoral than slavery & genocide!

Speed Racer
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[wildblue 7]

... so now we're adding Allah to the list along with the gay folk

EDIT: So as not to discriminate, I'll add Dave's suggestion of Oklahoma to the list as well.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[Gravitymaster 0]

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... so now we're adding Allah to the list along with the gay folk

EDIT: So as not to discriminate, I'll add Dave's suggestion of Oklahoma to the list as well.

Hey, why not blame Allah, since we are looking for people to blame. In fact, lets blame the French. They founded N.O. even though the Indians told them it was a flood area.

[windcatcher 0]

well, I doubt Mardi Gras will happen this year; why do we have to blame anyone?

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[Gravitymaster 0]

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well, I doubt Mardi Gras will happen this year; why do we have to blame anyone?

Because some people have to find fault with everything and with everybody. It's how they survive in the world. It allows them to feel better about themselves by diverting from their own faults.

[sinker 0]

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well, I doubt Mardi Gras will happen this year; why do we have to blame anyone?

Because some people have to find fault with everything and with everybody. It's how they survive in the world. It allows them to feel better about themselves by diverting from their own faults.

let's blame barney, that gay purple dinosaur... my sadistic kids made up a song about him...

Joy to the world
Bar-Ney is dead
We bar-b-qued his head
what happened to his body
we flushed it down the potty
round and round it goes
and round and round it goes
and round and round and round it goes.

sick little ones aren't they.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Newbie 0]

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well, I doubt Mardi Gras will happen this year; why do we have to blame anyone?

Because some people have to find fault with everything and with everybody. It's how they survive in the world. It allows them to feel better about themselves by diverting from their own faults.

Alternatively, there are those who think some people should be accountable for the cock up's, and want to find out why what happened did, and who ok'd it in the first place.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[billvon 3,107]

>Because some people have to find fault with everything and with
> everybody. It's how they survive in the world. It allows them to feel
> better about themselves by diverting from their own faults.

Indeed! The people who posted the following must have a REAL need to divert blame to others:

"Perhaps if the military budget hadn't been cut so much for so many years under Clinton, GWB wouldn't have so much ground to make up."

"Kind of like always thinking Clinton isn't to blame for many of the problems we have today including Intel problems, an unprepared military etc? Now I see. "

"The Clinton Administrations Ideology held that the U.S. should not be the only Superpower and that one of the ways to reduce the probability of war was to arm your enemies so they wouldn't feel as threatened. Thats what got us where we are today . . . "

"One of the reasons out intel capability was so devestated is due to the restrictions placed upon it during the Clinton Admin."

It is indeed sad when people have a desperate need for a scapegoat.

[wmw999 2,583]

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In fact, lets blame the French. They founded N.O. even though the Indians told them it was a flood area.

On NPR last night it said that the French Quarter was relatively unscathed and unflooded. It's built on some of the highest ground in NO (besides the freeway overpasses).

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,583]

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(reasons)...Clinton

Well duh who else should we blame?

He's to blame for Y2K also -- he was in office, after all

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>Because some people have to find fault with everything and with
> everybody. It's how they survive in the world. It allows them to feel
> better about themselves by diverting from their own faults.

Indeed! The people who posted the following must have a REAL need to divert blame to others:

"Perhaps if the military budget hadn't been cut so much for so many years under Clinton, GWB wouldn't have so much ground to make up."

"Kind of like always thinking Clinton isn't to blame for many of the problems we have today including Intel problems, an unprepared military etc? Now I see. "

"The Clinton Administrations Ideology held that the U.S. should not be the only Superpower and that one of the ways to reduce the probability of war was to arm your enemies so they wouldn't feel as threatened. Thats what got us where we are today . . . "

"One of the reasons out intel capability was so devestated is due to the restrictions placed upon it during the Clinton Admin."

It is indeed sad when people have a desperate need for a scapegoat.

Criticism when justified is one thing. The constant reach for blame that knows no bounds is another. You understood exactly what I meant. Or maybe you couldn't?

[billvon 3,107]

>You understood exactly what I meant.

Yep. Criticism of Clinton is justified; criticism of Bush is "people finding fault with everything and with everybody. It's how they survive in the world. It allows them to feel better about themselves by diverting from their own faults." Believe it or not, there are people who believe the exact opposite - and believe it with the same fervor you do.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I would have to blame the worst environmental polluters, of which the US is either No.1 or damned close to it. They have caused the global warming, which is heating up the seas and oceans, which are in turn fueling these larger than normal weather systems.

That has yet to be supported, and the increased intensity predicted is far less than what we've seen this past decade.

Seems like poor infrastructure and building a city below the water level is the obvious culprit here.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>You understood exactly what I meant.

Yep. Criticism of Clinton is justified; criticism of Bush is "people finding fault with everything and with everybody. It's how they survive in the world. It allows them to feel better about themselves by diverting from their own faults." Believe it or not, there are people who believe the exact opposite - and believe it with the same fervor you do.

Apparently not then. Let me try again. I'm talking about the obsessive and constant blame for everything. I'm talking the reaching into the far reaches of the ridiculous to find some path that could bring about the conclusion this is Bush's fault. Please find one post I've made on here that blames Clinton for this. I'm sure I could find some logic if I was so desparate to vent my anger. Thats all I see people doing. Are you really going to try and tell me you haven't rolled your eyes at some of the ridiculous blaming? Interesting that you see the amount and degree of blame on Clinton as being equal to what we see heaped on Bush. Did you read the thread about Bush being jinxed?

[billvon 3,107]

>Please find one post I've made on here that blames Clinton for this.

After 9/11 you pinned blame on Clinton. See above.

>Are you really going to try and tell me you haven't rolled your eyes
> at some of the ridiculous blaming?

Oh, I find the amount of blaming by both sides absurd.

>Interesting that you see the amount and degree of blame on Clinton
> as being equal to what we see heaped on Bush.

If a democrat were currently in office, you would see the right wingers making just as many silly accusations.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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After 9/11 you pinned blame on Clinton. See above.

He was complicit theres no denying that is there? I asked you to point out where I blamed Clinton for this. Since you apparently can't your answer is just a weak attempt to make a point.

>Are you really going to try and tell me you haven't rolled your eyes
> at some of the ridiculous blaming?

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Oh, I find the amount of blaming by both sides absurd.

I agree. Thats why I haven't blamed anyone (of course except the French and Allah ). It was a hurricaine. Heck, might as well blame Africa too since thats where they come from.

>Interesting that you see the amount and degree of blame on Clinton
> as being equal to what we see heaped on Bush.

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If a democrat were currently in office, you would see the right wingers making just as many silly accusations.

Maybe, but we are talking about Katrina. I think everybody needs to take a deep breath and stop the blame game. It isn't Bushs fault and it isn't Clintons fault.