who to blame for katrina?

[davedlg 0]

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One thing to consider when blaming the lack of preparation on the part of the government is how expensive it can be to be prepared for every contingency (including something that seems likely like a hurricane targeting NOLA).

It seems like a waste of tax dollars. Kind of like how people talk about wasting their insurance money, and saying that the companies are all a ripoff.

Until you need it, and then you find out that you economized too much.

I agree that you have to look at the economics of doing so, however given how much is at stake (thousands of lives, many billions of dollars of properties) I think a large investment into the infrastructure would have been justified. The chances of a major hurricane hitting the NO area are quite high...somewhere on the order of every 50 to 100 years. Imagine if the government wanted to build a dam above a city and they said that every uear there would be a 1 in 50 to 100 chance it would collapse and flood the city. No one would go for it. Dams are built based on the 500 to 1000 year storm event. Building an entire city where it was vunerable to the 50 to 100 year storm event just doesnt make sense.

I am a drainage engineer and I work with these kind of numbers every day. One small town I am working for is having to literally lay down millions of dollars for drainage facilities to protect against the 100-year storm. If a small town can cough up a few million dollars for this (with federal assistance), surely NO could have come up with the billion or so it would have cost to protect the city.

edited to add: HOW much money is NASA spending on the shuttle foam issue??

[freeflir29 0]

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The french , blame everything on them

Well.............they did put the damn city there!

[lawrocket 3]

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One thing to consider when blaming the lack of preparation on the part of the government is how expensive it can be to be prepared for every contingency (including something that seems likely like a hurricane targeting NOLA).

Another thing that needs to be understood is the difficulty of preparing for the biblical catastrophe. Here in Cali, we have strict earthquake codes. These codes are expected to keep people generally safe for the moderate earthquakes that can happen often. Still, the designs in general do not account for the 8.4 shaker.

We can build vehicles to tanklike specifications. However, this would price almost everyone out of the vehicle market because of prohibitive expense.

With earthquakes, there is very little that you can do to prevent serious damage when you have in excess of 2 g's of instant ground movement. Thousands or millions of tons confilct with the laws of inertia at that point, and crackign and failures wil occur.

Back when those levess in NOLA were strengthened they were designed to withstand a Category III. Category V might be irresistable force for which technology was ot available. All you could do was bult it as strong as you could for the money you had and hope for the best. "The best" last 40 years.

When the Northridge quake occurred, we were told that we should have done things like Japan, since their structures would have withstood the forces. Japan did it right, we were told. One year to the day later, Kobe, Japan, with its superior earthquake resistant designs, was laid waste by an earthquake. The state of the art was simply incapable at the time.

NOLA could have built Hoover Dam-like levees around NOLA. But there was not the money nor the political or societal will to do so. Things may have been much different if Katrina was a Cat III.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[goose491 0]

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For the crazy guy standing outside my office with his bible screaming that this was god's punishment. What happened to "My God is a loving God"? What happened to "I will never again destroy every living creature as I have done" And it was Mardi Gras' fault, right? So why is Vegas still standing? Why is all the 'evil' cities all over the globe still standing?

Where I won't speak for it being punishment for "Mardi Gras". I have already posted that I believe the Natural Disaster to be a direct cause of fast, immoral living. I don't like to get hung up on words like "God" because many stop reading when they see it... or think the thread needs to be moved to SC.

However, a "Loving God" does not assure that bad things won't happen. And "I will never again destroy every living creature as I have done."... well shit, read it carefully, it only means "I won't destroy ALL OF YOU."

The "God" of the Old Testament was a vengeful one. "An eye for an eye" was the concept and Old Testament stories detail that if you did something bad, something bad would happen to you. An example using natural disasters? Soddom and Gamora being destroyed by brim stone and fire as they propagated sodomy and rape.

The New Testament is when "Jesus" comes into the picture and that all changed. No more was it going to be so obvious. If we were to be considered "Children of God", then Jesus came around when all the children hit puberty.

After the New testament, there was no more "Ten Commandments" to follow or "eye for an eye" mentality to deal with those that broke them. We as "Gods children" were growing up and it was time for us to take on more responsibility. A simple "Do unto others as you would have done unto you." and a promise that if we all do so, things will only get better for us is what we got. It was a raise in our allowance... and the start of having to perhaps kick-in a little help with the household chores.

Well, on the whole, we don't treat others as we wish to be treated. An average, there are more people stepping on others for their own gain... so the opposite applies.

Is it coincidental, you figure, that at the beginning stages of what we will call WWIII, we are experiencing the worst climatical events seen by us since we were all still "Children of God" ? Did it surprise anyone to see looters and theives in the streets while others are still hoping to have their lives saved? Or that at in an era where the importance of attending a football game takes precedence over finding shelter for those without, a storm takes place which displays these moral inadequacies to us as plain as day?

Things don't just happen. Everything happens for a reason. The message in the storm, is not in the damage, or the death, or the injured. The message in the storm is in the actions of the survivors and of those not directly affected... how we all react to it.

Who is to blame for the storm? Come on people... we all are!


[Think I should stand on the street corner too? ]

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[wildblue 7]

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Think I should stand on the street corner too?

Yes, actually, I do. There are no more or less catastrophic natural disasters than there were 4000 years ago. There's still earth quakes, there's still meteor strikes, tsunami, hurricanes, typhoons... hell, something wiped out the dinos - maybe they were REALLY 'fast immoral' creatures. What's different today? We all see and hear these things as they happen - news is abundant and instantaneous. Do I think the moral standards of our civilization has changed? Yeah, maybe, but not all that much. Look back through history, there's always been terrible people doing terrible things. I don't think any of them were directly responsible for pissing off whatever cosmic force you believe in enough to do something bad.

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And "I will never again destroy every living creature as I have done."... well shit, read it carefully, it only means "I won't destroy ALL OF YOU."

Eh? I've heard people interpret it as "I won't use water to destroy again" but never "I won't destroy ALL of you" ... because, according to the Bible, he does sort of intend to when the end of the world is here. But he'll save the good few, like he did Noah.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[sinker 0]

I confess... It was my fault... back in '76 I took a spin at the ouija board... and this was fortold... I just waved it off, but no I know I should have told someone...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[wmw999 2,583]

But Katrina was only a taste of a Biblical-scale storm. A Cat 5 going ashore 20 miles west of New Orleans would have been more devastating to the city. People were minorly glad (in a "it could have been worse" way) that it hit east, not west, of NOLA.

But no one can prepare completely for something like this. The best they can do is to try to identify what is REALLY important, and keep it as safe as they can themselves.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[grue 1]

How about the people that built a city below sea level, next to a lake, in an area known for tropical storms and hurricanes? How about the people that chose to live there?

cavete terrae.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

I love rock and roll .... so put another dime in the jukebox babyyyy

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[yardhippie 0]

It can always be worse. this storm could have steamed back out to sea, and came back a second time in a different location.
there is always going to be some disaster natural or manmade.
if we spend our lives preparing for the "what if" well will most surely miss the parts of life that are worth living.
Who have though Mt St Helens would erupt? that a massive earthquake would level parts of california, ant another massive earth quake would MOVE the mississippi river, the list goes on and on.

its the way things are, and will be. the sooner we accept that and stop wasting our time wondering "why", we can clean up this mess and help those who need help and THEN we look for feasable ways to try to prevent future catastrophys.

IMHO

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[jumprunner 0]

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One thing to consider when blaming the lack of preparation on the part of the government is how expensive it can be to be prepared for every contingency (including something that seems likely like a hurricane targeting NOLA)..

Yea, its just too expwnsive to do things like prepare for disasters or fund disaster relief funds when there is a war in Iraq to tend to. We Americans are just so busy thinking of ourselves.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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The message in the storm, is not in the damage, or the death, or the injured. The message in the storm is in the actions of the survivors and of those not directly affected... how we all react to it.

I like that. I really do.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[goose491 0]

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Think I should stand on the street corner too?

Yes, actually, I do. There are no more or less catastrophic natural disasters than there were 4000 years ago.

It's also arguable that we have not become better people!

Were you around 4000 years ago? I do not argue that there were no catasrophic natural disasters then... I do however, argue that since we've been able to tell, there have been trends of better and worse times. I do argue that we've not seen so much crap all at once in quite a dogs age.

Again, I'm not saying things don't happen. Quite the opposite! True: there has always been bad things happening to us via mother nature... Also true: there has always been an evil element to us.

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And "I will never again destroy every living creature as I have done."... well shit, read it carefully, it only means "I won't destroy ALL OF YOU."

Eh? I've heard people interpret it as "I won't use water to destroy again" but never "I won't destroy ALL of you" ... because, according to the Bible, he does sort of intend to when the end of the world is here. But he'll save the good few, like he did Noah.

[Bolas 5]

The oil companies. With all their oil rigs out in the gulf pumping seawater right into the hurricane line. Sure they said they do it just to test the seals but they continuously pumped into the hurricane line because they knew it would create a huge storm which would knock power out and force houses and hospitals to use generators.

They were gonna blow the levees too but the bomb that was supposed to start that off was loaded onto a cart and carried away, too bad that handbrake wouldn't stay off without that reformed evil person holding it. *

Either that, or FOX News.

*20 geek points if you know the movie this is based on.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Rebecca 0]

Was that a bad Steven Segal movie? On Dangerous Ground?

edit: no need to qualify it as bad. We all know.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

My reply isn't to anyone in particular, but ignorance IS bliss, isn't it? I'm freakin sick of people saying that those in the Gulf Coast chose to stay during Hurricane Katrina..MANY didn't have a choice. They couldn't get out if they wanted to based on the roads being jammed and also for financial reasons, they had nowhere to go. Few can afford $50+/night hotel stay to escape a hurricane and beyond that, hotels were full for hundreds of miles.

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[voodew1 0]

A city built below sea level-----

Only fish live below sea level!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[tcnelson 1]

dropzone.com tip: one can remove the name of a specific person from the subject line or, alter it as one sees fit.

thank you; i'll be here all week.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[BillyVance 35]

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How about the people that built a city below sea level, next to a lake, in an area known for tropical storms and hurricanes? How about the people that chose to live there?

New Orleans was actually above sea level in the old days when it was founded. The ground gradually sank over the years as the city developed and grew, and planners built the levees and canals, which in some twisted way directed the natural accumulation of silt away from the city and out to sea, helping to sink the city some more.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[wildblue 7]

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I do however, argue that since we've been able to tell, there have been trends of better and worse times. I do argue that we've not seen so much crap all at once in quite a dogs age.

I disagree. We've just never had this kind of access to information before. We haven't been able to watch the entire globe like this before. We've never inhabited the globe to this extent so that almost any disaster that occurs affects a large number of humans.

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Well, I don't see "water" in that line at all. Laugh But it does say "... never again destroy every living creature..."

I don't have time to look up whatever version of the bible it's in, but there is a place where he vows never to destroy by water again. This is why so many people believe it'll be fire or something next time.

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as a side note, the DINOS lived and died long before the New Testament as well

So they lived before god was around then?

So you contend that one the sun, moon, and stars are gone... that won't kill everything on the planet? People will actually still be alive for 'judgement day'?
"there will be a violent earthquake and the sun will go as black as sackcloth; the moon turn red as blood, and the stars of the sky will fall onto the earth like figs dropping from a tree in a high wind. The sky itself will disappear like a scroll being rolled up and all the mountains and islands will be shaken from their places."

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Many people think they know what it says without ever having read it.

I have, thank you. Church, sunday school, bible school for almost 15 years of my life. 6 of those years I attended a private christian school. I have a pretty strong grasp of what's actually in the bible ... you can't "blame god" for a freakin' hurricane.

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MANY didn't have a choice.

Yes they did, they could have WALKED to a shelter. It's easier to mass evacuate from a shelter than to go rooftop to rooftop trying to save people.

Let's all call the founders of Venice dumbasses for building a city on the water.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[banjobill 0]

No! It was my fault. I mistakenly mocked a gang sign a month ago and this is what happens!

Either that or the Dutch for teaching the world that folks can live below sea level.

....with a capital P and that rhymes with T and that spells TROUBLE!!!

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

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How about the people that built a city below sea level, next to a lake, in an area known for tropical storms and hurricanes? How about the people that chose to live there?

New Orleans was actually above sea level in the old days when it was founded. The ground gradually sank over the years as the city developed and grew, and planners built the levees and canals, which in some twisted way directed the natural accumulation of silt away from the city and out to sea, helping to sink the city some more.

Thanks Billy..I was just about to post similar since some ppl need to do their homework on hx.

I might be taking a 3 week leave of absence from work to assist the Red Cross. They have a telethon on and begged for RNs and volunteers with pyschology backgrounds. I told them I'm not a PhD, however I am a Psych major and they seem interested in taking me up on my offer.

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[sinker 0]

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My reply isn't to anyone in particular, but ignorance IS bliss, isn't it? I'm freakin sick of people saying that those in the Gulf Coast chose to stay during Hurricane Katrina..MANY didn't have a choice. They couldn't get out if they wanted to based on the roads being jammed and also for financial reasons, they had nowhere to go. Few can afford $50+/night hotel stay to escape a hurricane and beyond that, hotels were full for hundreds of miles.

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good post. well said!

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[goose491 0]

<>

Not sure when there was, if there was, or how there was "God"

...but what I said was that Dinos lived before the New Testament.

As the story goes, The new testament is what declared that "God" would no longer punish the evil directly, but that we would all have the responsibility squarely on our own shoulders. Before this time, we were not yet 'mature' enough as his children. "Jesus" dies to give us a clean slate, then it's all up to us from there. The machine that is, however, chugs along and does it's thing.. wreaking havok... as we do.


And come come, we didn't just come out of the dark-ages last week my friend. We've been able to hear-tell of natural disasters occurring all over the planet for a long time now... and we can read the earth today, to see what has happened yesterday.

My theory is proven only by proof... which would of course require us all to act the way we are supposed to. But the theory stands, the day we all truly treat eachother as we wish to be treated, will be the day we no longer fear anything at all. Not "Natural" disasters, not disease, not pain nor suffering.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

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My reply isn't to anyone in particular, but ignorance IS bliss, isn't it? I'm freakin sick of people saying that those in the Gulf Coast chose to stay during Hurricane Katrina..MANY didn't have a choice.

Perhaps not: "chose to stay during a Hurricane"... but perhaps "chose to stay (read: live) in a place that could easily be devastated by a hurricane any given year knowing that in the event of one.....

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...They couldn't get out if they wanted to based on the roads being jammed and also for financial reasons, they would have nowhere to go. Few can afford $50+/night hotel stay to escape a hurricane and beyond that, hotels would be full for hundreds of miles.

...does that suit you better?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!