How much accommodation should a learning disability get?

[kallend 2,131]

I have noticed a marked upswing in the number of students reporting a learning disability, and Federal law requires that we make "reasonable accommodation".

Now I have little problem giving extra time to somone who has trouble reading an exam or writing down the answers, but this week I was given blanket instructions to allow a student "one and one-half" as much time on exams as the other students in a class. That's for the whole exam, not just the few minutes it takes to read it and write down the answers. Does this woman think 33% more slowly too?

How is this factor of 1.5 arrived at? Who says it shall be 1.5 and not 2.718 or 3.14159?

But what really irritated me was the instruction that I "shall not take spelling into account on written work" when assigning a grade, because this girl's disability includes inability to spell.

Is it fair to have a reduced standard for passing a class for some students compared with the others? Why are some students to be expected to spell properly, and others not?

How long will it be before I can't take physics errors into account because students can't do physics?

How exactly will these people function in the workplace when they have to actually perform for pay?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[waltappel 1]

Quote

I have noticed a marked upswing in the number of students reporting a learning disability, and Federal law requires that we make "reasonable accommodation".

Now I have little problem giving extra time to somone who has trouble reading an exam or writing down the answers, but this week I was given blanket instructions to allow a student "one and one-half" as much time on exams as the other students in a class. That's for the whole exam, not just the few minutes it takes to read it and write down the answers. Does this woman think 33% more slowly too?

How is this factor of 1.5 arrived at? Who says it shall be 1.5 and not 2.718 or 3.14159?

But what really irritated me was the instruction that I "shall not take spelling into account on written work" when assigning a grade, because this girl's disability includes inability to spell.

Is it fair to have a reduced standard for passing a class for some students compared with the others? Why are some students to be expected to spell properly, and others not?

How long will it be before I can't take physics errors into account because students can't do physics?

How exactly will these people function in the workplace when they have to actually perform for pay?

Stephen Hawking might need a bit of extra time on a test but he seems to be doing ok.

Walt

[tcnelson 1]

i've always thought that standards should be created based upon the requirements of the task.

this means that if a person cannot perform up to standard, regardless of the cause, that person should not be allowed to continue.

i first ran into this problem while i was wondering why there are different physical standards for men and women in the army. if you can't meet the standard to perform the job, then you don't get to do it. i don't care if one person has to work 100 times harder to achieve a standard than another person due to gender, learning disablility, allergies, height, weight, full moon, whatever. life is not fair and there will always be someone who can do it better and faster and that person might not have to work as hard as you to do it. get over it.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[wmw999 2,569]

If the class is in their major field (e.g. she wants to be an English teacher), then to me it would be really wrong not to mark off on English.

On the other hand, if she's taking physics to satisfy an entry-level requirement, well, intelligibility is important (if you cannot understand the answer, then it's wrong). But in the work place there are spell-checkers.

There is a time and a place for it. But sometimes a learning disability should be a sign that someone should pick a different field, because the real world IS going to be tougher, and there won't be as many accomodations.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mr2mk1g 10]

On a side note; I've always objected to the concept of spelling errors being taken into account in the exam grade for most subjects. A students ability to spell or otherwise is not a factor in how much physics they know or how well they understand Krebs cycle. It should therefore have no bearing on the grade they receive for papers on history, physics, mathematics, or any multitude of other subjects.

It should of course have an impact on their grade in spelling or overall English skills as this is the indicator to which we look if we wish to see how good the individual at communicating. Poor spelling is an element of an inability to communicate effectively and it is therefore right that their grade in this area suffers.

Poor spelling however does not indicate a poor physicist and it would be unfair to mark them down because of it. A "B-grade" student who would, but for their spelling, have been an "A-grade" student has been let down by the system, as their exam marks lie to prospective employers as to how well they understand the subject in which they were examined.

[/rant over]

[gemini 0]

Quote

Is it fair to have a reduced standard for passing a class for some students compared with the others? Why are some students to be expected to spell properly, and others not?

How long will it be before I can't take physics errors into account because students can't do physics?

How exactly will these people function in the workplace when they have to actually perform for pay?

Easy John! You're beginning to sound a little to conservative here. You didn't spend that much time with us in Texas!!!

Blue skies,

Jim

[kallend 2,131]

Quote

On a side note; I've always objected to the concept of spelling errors being taken into account in the exam grade for most subjects. A students ability to spell or otherwise is not a factor in how much physics they know or how well they understand Krebs cycle. It should therefore have no bearing on the grade they receive for papers on history, physics, mathematics, or any multitude of other subjects.

It should of course have an impact on their grade in spelling or overall English skills as this is the indicator to which we look if we wish to see how good the individual at communicating. Poor spelling is an element of an inability to communicate effectively and it is therefore right that their grade in this area suffers.

Poor spelling however does not indicate a poor physicist and it would be unfair to mark them down because of it. A "B-grade" student who would, but for their spelling, have been an "A-grade" student has been let down by the system, as their exam marks lie to prospective employers as to how well they understand the subject in which they were examined.

[/rant over]

If you look at the criteria for accrediting programs in engineering, psychology, business, architecture and law you will find that communication skills are required. Communication includes writing.

For years employers beat up on engineering schools because our graduates "can't write" and "can't make a presentation", so we all beefed up our writing and oral presentation requirements. It was a fair criticism because working engineers spend a large fraction of their time writing proposals, reports, technical papers, etc.

Writing experts agree that you can't compartmentalize writing in English classes only. Writing has to be integrated across the entire curriculum in order to be effectively taught. So that's what we do.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,131]

Quote

Stephen Hawking might need a bit of extra time on a test but he seems to be doing ok.

Walt

I'm glad you brought that up. Stephen Hawking and I were in grad school together. He asked for (and was given) no extra accommodations other than help with his wheelchair, and he did just fine.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Just out of curiosity, what specific learning disabilities are on the upswing? Is it possible this is just another excuse for lowering expectations?

[kallend 2,131]

Quote

On a side note; I've always objected to the concept of spelling errors being taken into account in the exam grade for most subjects. A students ability to spell or otherwise is not a factor in how much physics they know or how well they understand Krebs cycle. It should therefore have no bearing on the grade they receive for papers on history, physics, mathematics, or any multitude of other subjects.

It should of course have an impact on their grade in spelling or overall English skills as this is the indicator to which we look if we wish to see how good the individual at communicating. Poor spelling is an element of an inability to communicate effectively and it is therefore right that their grade in this area suffers.

Poor spelling however does not indicate a poor physicist and it would be unfair to mark them down because of it. A "B-grade" student who would, but for their spelling, have been an "A-grade" student has been let down by the system, as their exam marks lie to prospective employers as to how well they understand the subject in which they were examined.

[/rant over]

It's always funny how folks complain about the quality of schools and how the kids aren't learning anything anymore, but then turn around and say teachers shouldn't expect good spelling in student writing. What kind of message does that give?

Spelling Bees don't help either. What is the point of learning how to spell words like peregrination or pantagruelism if you don't know the difference between "there", "their" and "they're"?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,131]

Quote

Just out of curiosity, what specific learning disabilities are on the upswing? Is it possible this is just another excuse for lowering expectations?

Last one I had to deal with was "dysgraphia" which means "can't write for sh1t". Mostly it's slow reading. The "can't spell disability" was a new one on me.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mr2mk1g 10]

I understand that - effectively a finished product argument and it is important in the higher end of the educational spectrum as there is generally only one subject dealt with. But lower down the educational system that argument brakes down - for example in the UK on leaving high school you have 9 or more qualifications in separate subjects; (English being at least one those subjects).

If the student is given a poorer grade in one of the other subjects based on their inability to spell, the examining board is misleading prospective employers and higher educational institutions about how well that individual understands that subject. A biology paper examines understanding of biological concepts, not how well an individual spells. It is the English paper which examines the individual's understanding and use of the English language. That is where the reduction in marks should come at this level, not across the board.

Look at it another way. In order to get into higher educational institutes in this country one must obtain a certain number of points (with each institute and subject setting the points total required). These points are linked to the grades obtained in each subject so in my day an "A" got you 10 points (I think things have now changed however so the system works as a proportion of 100).

If an individual is marked down in English for poor spelling they may drop a grade and loose points so they might not be able to get into the educational institute of their choice. However it is only one subject they are marked down in so the likelihood of this happening is slight – in line with the impact on the individual's ability as a student one might say.

If however they are marked down in all of their subjects due to poor spelling, they may drop grade in a number of subjects and therefore loose a great many points all due to one inadequacy alone and thus miss out on the education they were looking for.

This seems to me like an exceptionally disproportionate mechanism for marking down one element of the individual's schooling. Simply because the student is lacking in one area of their schooling they are marked down not once, but 9, 10 or 11 times. Seems harsh to me.

[edit] and there's a big difference between teaching writing across the entire curriculum and examining writing across the entire curriculum.

[kallend 2,131]

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Easy John! You're beginning to sound a little to conservative here. You didn't spend that much time with us in Texas!!!

Hey Jim, I'm in an engineering school, not a liberal arts college. We expect our graduates to get real jobs.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,131]

Yes, I got 11 "O" levels and 4 "A" levels, so I've heard that argument before.

If you have low expectations, the students will perform accordingly.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AlexCrowley 0]

Attention Deficit Disorder (possibly an umbrella syndrome like Schizophrenia) is becoming easier to detect accurately. In the last 10 years there's been a great deal of research that shows the organic components of the disease. While the ADD label has gotten bad press there are several GPs and specialist clinics that are aware of the new information and able to integrate it into a solid treatment plan.

The largest issue with ADD is that there are so many co-morbids and disparate symptoms that without indepth neuropsychological testing it's an easy one to fall thru the cracks: a GP will often diagnose either 'your imagination', depression or bipolar disorder depending on their personal biases.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[AlexCrowley 0]

Quote

Quote

Just out of curiosity, what specific learning disabilities are on the upswing? Is it possible this is just another excuse for lowering expectations?

Last one I had to deal with was "dysgraphia" which means "can't write for sh1t". Mostly it's slow reading. The "can't spell disability" was a new one on me.

dyslexia was new to you?

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[tcnelson 1]

Quote

I've always objected to the concept of spelling errors being taken into account in the exam grade for most subjects.

i couldn't disagree more. poor spelling will get you passed over for any job that requires you to communicate with others in writing.

spelling requires memorization and memorization is achieved through repetition. the way to get people to repeat correct spelling is to have consequences for incorrect spelling.

bottom line: spelling and grammar are a prerequisite for almost any kind of professional job. those who suck at it look unprofessional and, dare i say, incompetent.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[AlexCrowley 0]

Feel free, and in general you may be right. But those of us in this situation tend to gravitate towards jobs where it doesnt matter so much.

The main issue with mental disabilities is that unless you provide visual clues or are incredibly slow it is invisible.

Whereas a 'normal' person may easily pick up on spelling, grammar, punctuation, or something as simple as being able to organize a desk full of objects there are those out there who lack those skills, not from a lack of effort but from an inability to use those parts of the brain required to sort that information.

To understand it requires knowing how the brain works.

Example: Filing.

When you file you pick up a piece of paper/object and label it mentally, once it has a label you can put it into a place where things with that label live.

Thats fine. Glad you can do that.

Filing for someone with a disability like ADD works like this:

pick up a piece of paper and try to label it, except this peice of paper has many labels: it's paper, its notes from a meeting about a project that IT is going to do next month. Does that get filed under 'meeting minutes' or 'IT project' or 'Future projects' or 'project notes'?

Filing it can be pretty easy. Retrieval however, on that day which file did it fit in? did I feel it was a future projects day or an IT projects day? did I create a subcatagory for that note? Did i put it in a safe place?

Now, the real magic is that once you have that first dose of medication filing is EASY! hell, i see why my parents got pissed at me for never tidyign my room, and why my first wife ranted and raved about disorganization and chaos.

Now, I couldnt tell you where a comma or an apostraphe should go, even tho I've tried to learn - it doesnt stick. There's no traction. I learn differently than 'normal' people. I make neural connections in a far different way than someone with 'average' brain chemistry. Sometimes that sucks, often its very useful.

I've found that I tend to look unprofessional only if working in boring traditional 9 - 5 jobs where I dont naturally fit in. Anywhere else and Im considered a key asset because my brain doesnt work like an 'average' person.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[gemini 0]

And now this???

http://www.swiftreport.blogs.com/news/2005/05/foes_of_evoluti.html

Accomodation and "creative" alternative theories???

Blue skies,

Jim

[tcnelson 1]

sounds like you've adapted to your situation quite well.

i understand that learning some things is more difficult for some than others. i said that in my first post in this thread. however, i don't think that changes the substance of the issue.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[AlexCrowley 0]

"this means that if a person cannot perform up to standard, regardless of the cause, that person should not be allowed to continue. "

In certain roles that makes sense, sure, if you can't lift something over 20lbs dont become a furniture delivery guy. In some senses it's shooting yourself in the foot.

When the standard is simply from a 'tradition' that has no bearing on the real subject then it makes little sense to rigorously enforce it if it's counter productive.

No one is getting the answers, only more time to retrieve them from their minds and place them on paper. It's not as if the person asked for the text book, or a lower score to count as a pass mark. Why persecute someone for their brain's inability to react like a 'normal' person?

As someone said: spelling counts for an english major, to an english major spelling is INFORMATION. which is the whole point of testing anyway, to see if the information was retained - hopefully for future use.

Perhaps a decent illustration: I have certain issues with perceiving time. Because of this deadlines were missed while I was taking my mock exams. I was pretty much kicked out of school for failing to turn in certain paperwork that I thought i'd done. A month or so after leaving I was approached by a student also in my class, not only had they found the 'missing' paperwork, it turned out that I had scored the highest on those papers. Out of 600 students I was the only B grade and the only one out of 600 who passed those exams - which were designed to be failed.

Which is why I find the concept of having to meet certain rigid, yet unnecessary, standards counter productive, and destructive to both the person with the disability, their potential, and to business as a whole. We tend to forget that the some of the greatest minds had little or no formal schooling in those disciplines in which they are remembered.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[kallend 2,131]

Forgive me for being hard nosed, but poor performance (including communications) by engineers has the potential to kill people, and has in the past.

We do not accommodate blind airline pilots, deaf air traffic controllers or wheelchair bound firemen either. Some professions simply need to be unavailable to some people.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,095]

We had a blind engineer working here for a while. He was a good engineer, but did need some accommodations (extra time to get to meetings, a special keyboard, a voice synthesizer.) I think most teachers/managers can come to their own determination of what "reasonable" is.

We see this in skydiving too. We've taken paraplegics and even quadriplegics up to do tandems, and one guy has come back a dozen times. Probably wouldn't take someone who needs a respirator, though, because jumping with the machine is pretty unreasonable, and the risk of jumping without it is unacceptable. You don't need hard rules to see that.

[AlexCrowley 0]

Yes, I think I just said that myself.

And all your examples require those key skills to perform them.

I didnt realize that your class was just 'Engineers building stuff that might kill people if it isnt done properly'. I thought it might have been Physics, and while I haven't gone to physicistzone.com to check their incident reports I'm going to make an assumption that pursuing the study of a physical sciences in a classroom has not caused too many fatalities over the last 12 months.

By your reckoning I should be asking people if they "want fries with that".

edited: I just found your attitude on this case to be short sighted and ignorant.

In this particular case: the girl cannot spell, as someone with a disability she will be able to have her employer provide methods to neutralize this problem.

In my case I get very minor allowances that allow my employer to gain far more in measurable terms than it will ever cost them.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[mr2mk1g 10]

If a student spells badly, mark them down in their English paper. English papers test English skills, thus their mark in the subject should appropriately reflect a deficiency in the candidate's English skills.

An inability to spell "inconvenient" does not indicate a lack of knowledge about glacial processes - so where is the logic in marking down a student's geography paper based on their spelling?

Test the knowledge of the subject in which they are being examined, not the subject they took last Wednesday. To do otherwise is astoundingly illogical.

When it comes to vocational studies the issue is of course slightly different. In such cases the examination does not test the candidate's knowledge of a specific subject, but their ability to perform a given task. Thus my spelling was rightly taken into account when I graduated from Law school as my certificate didn't say I knew stuff about the law but that I was a Lawyer – Lawyers have to be able to spell.