rushmc 23 #1 August 29, 2005 From Newsmax. Saturday, Aug. 27, 2005 5:45 p.m. EDT New 9/11 Probe Could Spotlight Iraq Link Congressional hearings coming this fall into revelations by the military intelligence group Able Danger could spotlight other evidence overlooked by the 9/11 Commission: including a March 2001 report suggesting that Osama bin Laden was working with Iraqi intelligence operatives in Germany at a time when Mohamed Atta and two other 9/11 hijack team leaders were living in Hamburg. On March 16, 2001, the Paris-based newspaper Al Watan al Arabi reported: "Two Iraqis were arrested in Germany, charged with spying for Baghdad. The arrests came in the wake of reports that Iraq was reorganizing the external branches of its intelligence service and that it had drawn up a plan to strike at US interests around the world through a network of alliances with extremist fundamentalist parties." Al Watan said that German intelligence was investigating "serious indications of cooperation between Iraq and bin Ladin.* The matter was considered so important that a special team of CIA and FBI agents was sent to Germany to interrogate the two Iraqi spies." The pre-9/11 Al Watan report continued: "German authorities were surprised by the arrest of the two Iraqi agents and the discovery of Iraqi intelligence activities in several German cities. German authorities, acting on CIA recommendations, had been focused on monitoring the activities of Islamic groups linked to bin Ladin." A timeline established by U.S. intelligence shows that three out of four 9/11 hijack team leaders, Mr. Atta, Marwan al Shehhi and Ziad Jarrah, lived in Hamburg from Nov. 1998 thru Feb. 2001. The Weekly Standard, which covered the Al Watan report this week in a story by Captain's Quarter's blogger Ed Morrissey noted: "Despite this contemporaneous report about the nature of the German arrests and the involvement of American counterintelligence officials in the investigation, not a word of the affair appears in the 9/11 Commission's final report." This fall's hearings will undoubtedly begin with questions about why both the 9/11 Commission and the Clinton administration dismissed Able Danger's stunning identification of Mohamed Atta inside the U.S. But any congressional investigation that doesn't explore other overlooked bombshells - including indications of possible Iraqi involvement in the 9/11 attacks - will leave even more important questions unanswered."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #2 August 29, 2005 Oh! Oh! So Iraq was invaded because of its involvement in 9/11 afterall. So why has the Bush administration changed its story from 9/11 involvement to WMD ownership and then to because SH is a really nasty man? Why didn't they stick to the 9/11 involvement if that was the real reason? Why did they flip flop between a whole bunch of bullshit reasons? Sounds like a big sack of shit to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #3 August 29, 2005 QuoteOh! Oh! So Iraq was invaded because of its involvement in 9/11 afterall. So why has the Bush administration changed its story from 9/11 involvement to WMD ownership and then to because SH is a really nasty man? Why didn't they stick to the 9/11 involvement if that was the real reason? Why did they flip flop between a whole bunch of bullshit reasons? Sounds like a big sack of shit to me. LOL ......let the entertainment begin "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #4 August 29, 2005 Two thinks I find interesting about your reply. 1) you did not respond to the original question and 2) The comments made about the 911 commission when (a) Bush did not want the commission because he was afraid it would be a political investigation instead of a factual one (which is what happened) (b) the praise give the 911 group when they report no link between Iraq and 911 (which is not exactly what they said) and (c) what a sack of shit the 911 commission will be if they are forced to establish a link because of , hhhaaaaaa, God forbid,.......FACTS!! But everybody knows if that happens it is a lie because the just folded under some sort of right wing pressure"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #5 August 29, 2005 Quote Sounds like a big sack of shit to me. I'd imagine a big sack of shit would just lie there, quietly... but I can swear I can also hear it. wait.... yes... It sounds like a big sack of shit to me too. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #6 August 29, 2005 Quote1) you did not respond to the original question ok fair comment. hypothetically, if it turned out that SH was involved in 9/11 then he should be charged and sentenced appropriately. but do you honestly believe that with all the resources available to them, the Bush administration wouldn't have already come up with the evidence if it existed. I believe that, just like the wmd, a real link between SH and 9/11 doesn't exist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 42 #7 August 29, 2005 The biggest problem with this question is that it lends credibility to a government that has none. Now don't get me wrong this is not Bush bashing. I contend that the whole US government has lost credibility and will make up "facts" to suit what ever agenda it is supporting at the moment."Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #8 August 29, 2005 IIRC the Germany meet was debunked thoroughly around the time it was first raised. A lot of the spotlighted intelligence was stovepiped against the advice of seasoned intelligence analysts. It's pretty complex but basically the CIA were told to simply funnel Iraqi intelligence stories directly to another group (who's acronym escapes me for the moment), it is this group who, lacking analytic experience, created a lot of the myths that led the US into war. The intelligence was often single sourced from non-credible or third party sources. A seasoned analyst will take 100 pieces of information, sift through them, correlate them with previous intelligence and a little instinct to develop 2 or 3 items that *MAY* lead to something concrete and will havea high probability of being factual. In the build up to the war the new group would take those 100 pieces of information and react strongly to the most sensational, regardless of merit - Niger uranium, aluminium tubes, the presence, quantity and quality of chemical weaponry available to Saddam etc etc. While one could argue the CIA were upset that their main function was circumvented to 'amatuers', in hindsight every publicly made criticism leveled at the methods used to gather intelligence to justify the war has held true so far. Exactly as predicted by current and former senior analysts. This is also true for the financial analysts who were villified for merely suggesting that the war would cost many times more than the initial lowball quote that was sold to Congress and the US public. Edited: Ah, now I remember: John Bolton and the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR). TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfzombie13 324 #9 August 29, 2005 the really tragic part of this whole mess is the fact that bush(i'm not bashing him, just stating an opinion) pushed the country into a war with no clear exit strategy, even 2.5 years after starting it. there were scenarios for all types of different tracks that a war can take, including nuclear strikes. the whole thing was, and continues to be, a disgrace to our country. if there were ties to the attacks on our country(i refuse to use the 911 terminology in reference to a fact of life in the rest of the world), then so be it. but as one reply to this thread mentions, the government is simply too practiced in the art of weaving tales that fit the circumstances and i, for one, will not beleive any figment of anyone's imagination spewing forth from the mouths of any politician. i place all of the so-called facts on the level with facts issued from anyone in the media: sometimes entertaining, sometimes scary, maybe containing a stray fact or two, but generally indistinguishable from drivel. believe what you want, but regardless of what the current administration says, we are not the world's police. who cares if iran has nuclear power? it's time to put our help where it's needed: but wait, there is no oil in central africa, no use for us to stop the genocide. there just ain't enough payback._________________________________________ Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #10 August 29, 2005 Quotethe really tragic part of this whole mess is the fact that bush(i'm not bashing him, just stating an opinion) pushed the country into a war with no clear exit strategy, even 2.5 years after starting it. there were scenarios for all types of different tracks that a war can take, including nuclear strikes. the whole thing was, and continues to be, a disgrace to our country. if there were ties to the attacks on our country(i refuse to use the 911 terminology in reference to a fact of life in the rest of the world), then so be it. but as one reply to this thread mentions, the government is simply too practiced in the art of weaving tales that fit the circumstances and i, for one, will not beleive any figment of anyone's imagination spewing forth from the mouths of any politician. i place all of the so-called facts on the level with facts issued from anyone in the media: sometimes entertaining, sometimes scary, maybe containing a stray fact or two, but generally indistinguishable from drivel. believe what you want, but regardless of what the current administration says, we are not the world's police. who cares if iran has nuclear power? it's time to put our help where it's needed: but wait, there is no oil in central africa, no use for us to stop the genocide. there just ain't enough payback. ....believe what you want but, SH did have WMD's. That is known because he used them. (I believe that he had them at the time of the war but they were moved to other countries. There was and is clear reason to be there IMHO. This is not about oil or things would be different over there. If President Bush lied or mislead the country then so did Clinton, Keary, Kennedy, ect ....there is dicrase in this country too, I agree, but it is not coming from the Bush Aministration.....it starts with the media. But back to my original question. What if this Able Danger situation DOES link SH to 911??"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,588 #11 August 29, 2005 QuoteIn the build up to the war the new group would take those 100 pieces of information and react strongly to the most sensational, regardless of merit - Niger uranium, aluminium tubes, the presence, quantity and quality of chemical weaponry available to Saddam etc etc. Sounds like they posted it in Speakers Corner Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #12 August 29, 2005 Quote But back to my original question. What if this Able Danger situation DOES link SH to 911?? But what if Bush planned or allowed 9/11 to happen for political gain? TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #13 August 29, 2005 QuoteQuote But back to my original question. What if this Able Danger situation DOES link SH to 911?? But what if Bush planned or allowed 9/11 to happen for political gain? Then he should be drawn a quartered"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #14 August 29, 2005 QuoteQuote But back to my original question. What if this Able Danger situation DOES link SH to 911?? But what if Bush planned or allowed 9/11 to happen for political gain? Are you gonna answer?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #15 August 29, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote But back to my original question. What if this Able Danger situation DOES link SH to 911?? But what if Bush planned or allowed 9/11 to happen for political gain? Then he should be drawn a quartered Then I'd reevaluate my feelings about the situation and hope that the intelligence community would be able to find additional corroborating information. However, it will never stop my disgust at how the war was sold to the US public, the way that the citizenry was manipulated, people and countries were villified and that the entire thing was so transparent that anyone paying attention to the whole story could see it for the game that it was. It will not change the fact that peoples lives have been lost on both sides. Would a link to 9/11 make me feel the war is justified? No. One meeting doesnt mean a damn thing without additional information to back it up. We already know that Saddam made some attempts to work with several organizations as far back as the early 90s. Ideologically and realistically any joint venture was unworkable and the intelligence community worldwide did not and have not changed their opinion that Saddam stopped following that line of inquiry. As for WMDs, it was known *before* the war that any existing chemical weapons that Saddam owned were beyond their useful life, and he had not been able to manufacture anymore after the first Gulf War. Remember, the search went from 'finding WMDS' to 'Finding a WMD program'. People tend to misunderstand what 'intelligence' is, it's not about 'smoking guns', it's about gathering everything up and using experience and information to sift out the lies and rumors and piece together something that approximates the truth. This is why valid sourcing is so important. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #16 August 29, 2005 What if... what if... what if... What if Bush is an extraterrestrial? What if this meeting is where the 9/11 planning took place?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #17 August 29, 2005 Quote What if... what if... what if... What if Bush is an extraterrestrial? What if this meeting is where the 9/11 planning took place? What if you are extraterrestrial Good thing that big word was spelled above"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #18 August 29, 2005 I'm not going to repeat myself here: There are NO Extraterrestrials. Move along, nothing to see here. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #19 August 29, 2005 You post many things I do not agree with or accept.... We are there for the right reasons IMHO But I am used to being called stupid or one that has been duped I fully expect that to come next............ from somewhere......."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #20 August 29, 2005 QuoteI'm not going to repeat myself here: There are NO Extraterrestrials. Move along, nothing to see here. "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #21 August 29, 2005 Quote What if... what if... what if... What if Bush is an extraterrestrial? What if this meeting is where the 9/11 planning took place? Why don't you just make that picture your avatar, John...you seem to love it so much...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #22 August 29, 2005 QuoteQuote What if... what if... what if... What if Bush is an extraterrestrial? What if this meeting is where the 9/11 planning took place? Why don't you just make that picture your avatar, John...you seem to love it so much... I can't figure out whether that picture looks so old and faded because it was taken so long ago or whether it got that way from Kallend carrying it around in his wallet, showing it to people on the street. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #23 August 29, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote What if... what if... what if... What if Bush is an extraterrestrial? What if this meeting is where the 9/11 planning took place? Why don't you just make that picture your avatar, John...you seem to love it so much... I can't figure out whether that picture looks so old and faded because it was taken so long ago or whether it got that way from Kallend carrying it around in his wallet, showing it to people on the street. Of course it's old, it was taken pre-9/11. It may be as old as the WMDs the Reagan administration supplied. Of course, WMDs have a finite lifespan but photos are forever.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #24 August 29, 2005 Actually I think stupid or duped are too strong here, manipulated and mislead would appear to be more accurate from my perspective. 1, Im not a citizen of the US, so I tend to read different news sources than most people (plus I read fast so I read a lot of news sources). 2, Existing in an alien society means you see things from different angles and perspectives than are possible if you've grown up within it. 3, Security work is my profession and intelligence matters are a hobby, so I tend to follow through on a lot of additional research and context. Whereas the rest of the world (including our allies) were presenting information from both sides of the debate there was little conversation in the US press about options. Where the US press would hop onto the next sensationalistic morsel of info the world's press dug deeper, provided explanatory information and follow up work. I actually blame the media over anyone else. Once you work out the twisted Chalabi/Miller stuff it gets more and more nauseating. Chalabi already had very low credibility with the CIA and yet became pretty much the single source for most of the pre-war intelligence used. It's very tough now that the Iraq situation has gone to hell (as far as public opinion) as the signal to noise ratio using Google is pretty high now, but a very good example of the differences would be the Niger situation. In the US it became about a single source and his motivations and methods, because there's no real depth to the story it remains in this mythological limbo of left vs right rather than an attempt to discern the truth. Rather than look at the history of the documents we look at the history of the man and his wife. In the rest of the world the story was followed from it's inception (with a european journalist being 'leaked' the documents in the early 90s) through to the rumors and then the followup. In the majority of the world the Niger story is accepted as being dead, a nasty situation regarding the italian secret service and finally someone just trying to cover their ass. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #25 August 29, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote What if... what if... what if... What if Bush is an extraterrestrial? What if this meeting is where the 9/11 planning took place? Why don't you just make that picture your avatar, John...you seem to love it so much... I can't figure out whether that picture looks so old and faded because it was taken so long ago or whether it got that way from Kallend carrying it around in his wallet, showing it to people on the street. Of course it's old, it was taken pre-9/11. It may be as old as the WMDs the Reagan administration supplied. Of course, WMDs have a finite lifespan but photos are forever. And you think there's a possibility that 9/11 was planned at the time this photo was taken, or was this just an excuse to post this picture just one more time ad nauseam? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites