Superb article from Michelle Malkin

[wmw999 2,588]

Were you in favor of profiling after the Oklahoma City and Atlanta bombings?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[TheAnvil 0]

Yes, I'd be inclined to agree. Now, here is the difference. There are no legal gun owners, to my knowledge, who have banded together in clandestinely funded groups and declared a holy war against the United States.

There ARE, in contrast, many folks of Arab descent who have openly stated their desire to cause harm to the US and its citizenry. Hmmmm...

Racial profiling is an extremely useful law enforcement technique. For example, if your child were kidnapped by a bunch of white guys driving a Chevy Nova, would you want the police to pull over a Nova full of Hispanic looking folks? How about a Nova full of white rednecks chewing tobacco? I, personally, WANT the cops to discriminate based on race in such instances. One of very, very few cases in which I consider racial discrimination to be appropriate.

Now compare the racial discrimination I describe above to that touted by racially prejudiced bigots such as Jesse Jackson, Julian Bond, Kweise Mfune, et al and I think the difference to be obvious. In many cases, the same people touting discrimination as the definite way to go with regards to college admissions, awarding of scholarships, hiring, promoting employees, etc. are the very ones who scream loudly that racial profiling is wrong for law enforcement purposes. I think their hypocrisy both self-evident and disgusting.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Were you in favor of profiling after the Oklahoma City and Atlanta bombings?

Wendy W.

Ohhh, the standard, (and much over used) Liberal Zinger. Yes, if they had attempted to blow up an airliner, I would have been for profiling anyone who fit their profile.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Does it say anything about penis envy?

I differ with Freud on the concept of penis envy. I don't think it's limited to women.
You do realize you are speaking to the undisputed "biggest dick on DZ.Com" don't you?
Don't you love the double entendre'

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[TheAnvil 0]

I'm the biggest JACKASS on dropzone.com - figuratively speaking of course.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>In a Utopia Mecca where unlimited funds are available to check every
> single person, your ideas would be admirable.

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?? Estimates to search every passenger on every airline flight run about 2 billion a year. We spend about 50 billion a year on the Iraq war; one of the revised goals of the war is to "keep us safe from terrorism." If you can accomplish that goal with 4% of the money we spend on Iraq why wouldn't you?

Because we could appropriate some of the saving to protecting the borders or other security methods more effective than searching grandma, a police officer, or a 2 month old baby. Heck Bill, I almost thought you were going to go on a rant about how we would be safer by withdrawing from Iraq.

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Or you can choose not to; that's fine. But then we should admit it. "We want the war; we don't really want airline security." In which case just apply the lesser security to everyone. We'll lose an airplane once in a while, but it will be cheap and easy and won't cut into war funding.

We want both, but by your logic, we should just nuke Iraq and get out. Wouldn't you agree that would be cheaper? Then we could spend that $50 billion on our own Homeland Security. Why don't you just admit that would be the best way to spend our anti-terror dollars?


>If thats going to entail racial profiling, so be it.

Racial profiling (the real definition, not the PC definition) will decrease the effectiveness of our security by leaving intentional holes in it.

>I can't recall a single incident of them using an airplane as a bomb.

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Let's go with this line of thinking. "I can't recall a single incident of any terrorist using an MD-80 as a bomb. So clearly we shouldn't search passengers on MD-80's. We should stick to the known profiles, and that means searching passengers only on 757's and 767's." That would save money too! And I'm sure the terrorists would never figure it out and switch airplanes.

OK lets follow along your line of thinking. If the planes they used before all have blue carpet, then we don't need to worry about planes with red carpet. Is that what you want?

>I also don't want limited Homeland Security Funds being spent to
> check everyone, if thats going to increase the odds of uncovering an
> attack.

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That's fine. Don't check everyone, save money, and live with the greater odds of not discovering an impending attack. But for god's sake don't complain about it afterwards.

I thought you were all for fiscal responsibility. Sounds like you are making the "if it only saves one(___fill in blank_______), it's worth it argument.

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[kelpdiver 2]

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Yes, I'd be inclined to agree. Now, here is the difference. There are no legal gun owners, to my knowledge, who have banded together in clandestinely funded groups and declared a holy war against the United States.

Why does it need to be a holy war?

Up until 2000, our main concern with terrorists were white, separatist groups within the country. Like the ones that were bombing federal buildings, and harassing judges. I bet many Operation Rescue members legally own guns, too.

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Racial profiling is an extremely useful law enforcement technique. For example, if your child were kidnapped by a bunch of white guys driving a Chevy Nova, would you want the police to pull over a Nova full of Hispanic looking folks?

That isn't racial profiling - where you pull over the hispanic Nova car because you think they might be kidnapping kids. Your example is police responding to an actual crime.

The issue with profiling is not that it's right or wrong. The issue is that it is counterproductive and leads to lower safety. Given that white people can manage to walk on board an airplane with concealed weapons they forgot to unpack, doesn't seem like the way to go.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Racial profiling is an extremely useful law enforcement technique. For example, if your child were kidnapped by a bunch of white guys driving a Chevy Nova, would you want the police to pull over a Nova full of Hispanic looking folks? How about a Nova full of white rednecks chewing tobacco? I, personally, WANT the cops to discriminate based on race in such instances. One of very, very few cases in which I consider racial discrimination to be appropriate.

That is not racial profiling. That is eliminating anyone who does not fit the known description. Now, on the other hand, If the cops say, "we've had a kidnapping. I bet it was a bunch of Hispanics," that would be racial profiling. Or, if the cops say, "we are expecting a possible terrorist attack. Be on the lookout for males of middle eastern descent, age 15-60," that would be racial profiling. Using a description of a known perp that includes race is not racial profiling.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Yes, I'd be inclined to agree. Now, here is the difference. There are no legal gun owners, to my knowledge, who have banded together in clandestinely funded groups and declared a holy war against the United States.

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Why does it need to be a holy war?

Up until 2000, our main concern with terrorists were white, separatist groups within the country. Like the ones that were bombing federal buildings, and harassing judges. I bet many Operation Rescue members legally own guns, too.

The reason we were only worried about white separatists is because we were ignoring the Islamic terrorists. The reason we ignored them is because we had a poor leader who avoided any potential conflict prefering to hope by doing so, it would go away.

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[TheAnvil 0]

The security experts from El Al airlines disagree with you. What a lousy record they have.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

Call it what you like, it works. This might fit your definition - something the Memphis police department's south precinct has done for years. If you're white in their precinct at night, you're more than likely going to get pulled over. They have an extraordinarily high rate of finding drugs or getting the moron to admit to coming into the neighborhood to buy drugs (no shit), simply by racial profiling.

And which airling hijackers and homicide bombers, exactly, have NOT been males of middle eastern descent, ages 15-60, out of utter curiosity? Not many I assure you, by either raw # or percentage. If you were director of an airport's TSA security and had intel that a hijacking was coming, would you REALLY have your screeners searching WWII CMOH winners more thoroughly than a 21 year old fellow from Syria? Puuuuhleeeeze.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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The security experts from El Al airlines disagree with you. What a lousy record they have.

You guys can't keep on the same page.

You say there were no militant gun owner groups. GM says we were just ignoring the Islamic ones (largely true by my viewing of the Clinton Administration). Until 2001, the white ones killed more Americans.

Billvon says El Al checks everyone thoroughly, you imply they only check the Arabs.

[TheAnvil 0]

Oh no...El Al does check everyone thoroughly...if you'd read a bit about their opinions on US Airline security, you'd realize that they think our efforts are rather impotent because US security it aimed at finding bombs and not the terrorist himself/herself.

Now - would you REALLY check the 86 year old Texas grandmother more thoroughly than a 21 y/o Syrian male going through your security checkpoint were you a TSA screener with intel that a hijacking was planned? You wouldn't want to offend the Syrian by targeting him in a non-random manner, now, would you?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Gravitymaster 0]

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The security experts from El Al airlines disagree with you. What a lousy record they have.

You guys can't keep on the same page.

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You say there were no militant gun owner groups. GM says we were just ignoring the Islamic ones (largely true by my viewing of the Clinton Administration). Until 2001, the white ones killed more Americans.

Nope, the arabs had killed more. Remember the Marine Corp Barracks etc? We also forgot about the first WTC bombing, the downing of US Airliners, The Achille Laurel and many other terrorist attacks against Americans. We only started to pay attention when they brought the war to American soil. Now there are people who try to muddy up the fact that the greatest threat to Americans isn't white separatists. It's Islamic Terrorists, plain and simple.

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[tso-d_chris 0]

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And which airling hijackers have NOT been males of middle eastern descent

Okay, can't resist. D.B. Cooper

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And which homicide bombers have NOT been males of middle eastern descent

Timothy McVeigh
Eric Rudolph
Theodore Kaczynski
William Krar
Judith Bruey
Orlando Bosch (pardoned by President Bush, the elder)

Just to name a few.

You don't really buy into that BS rascist nonsense, do you? You're really just trolling, right?

[TheAnvil 0]

I've never implied the superiority of any race over another - I leave such to supporters of race-based affirmative action and their ilk- and consider any such implication or outright statement of such to be morally disgusting. One wonders how you could consider anything I've written anywhere to be racist in nature.



What a nice list of losers you've compiled. Now after compiling them, how about telling us what they've got in common. Age? Nope. Ethnicity? Nope. Cause? Nope - not even similar in some cases. Successful bombing under their belts? Nope.

Since nobody else has answered, perhaps you will. Were you in charge of TSA screeners with intel in hand that a hijacking was being planned that day, would you search the 86 year old redneck grandmother Texan more thoroughly than a 21 y/o Syrian male of Arabic descent?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I've never implied the superiority of any race over another - I leave such to supporters of race-based affirmative action and their ilk- and consider any such implication or outright statement of such to be morally disgusting. One wonders how you could consider anything I've written anywhere to be racist in nature.

I still believe you are trolling, but just in case...

Racism n. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism

I'm sorry if you do not like the word. It is simply the most concise synonym for racial profiling I have found.

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What a nice list of losers you've compiled. Now after compiling them, how about telling us what they've got in common. Age? Nope. Ethnicity? Nope. Cause? Nope - not even similar in some cases. Successful bombing under their belts? Nope.

Not a single one of the people I mentioned is of middle eastern descent. They are not even all men. Racial profiling would not have caught any of them.

The two that don't have blood on their hands? They were caught before they carried out their plan. But by the size of the various weapons in their cache, they were some pretty serious plans. If carried out they could have been the deadliest ones on the list, except maybe Bosch, with his Presidential pardon. He may have kept his top spot.

What became of his champions, you might wonder? Who persuaded George Sr. to pardon him? Well, Jeb Bush is now serving his final term as Florida Governor, and he appointed Raul Cantero III, Bosch's attorney, to the Florida Supreme Court.

Of course, we could find many other examples of terrorism by non-middle eastern descent. They're not rare, relatively speaking.

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Since nobody else has answered, perhaps you will. Were you in charge of TSA screeners with intel in hand that a hijacking was being planned that day, would you search the 86 year old redneck grandmother Texan more thoroughly than a 21 y/o Syrian male of Arabic descent?

Why would I assume an 86 year old poses less of a terrorist threat than a 21 year old? Old does not mean feeble. If she had a beef with someone and was going to resort to violence, I suspect she would be just as capable as a 21 year old, and probably a bit wiser. I wouldn't search her more or less thoroughly than the guy. Why would I? I would be far more concerned with the behavior of a person as they anticipate and/or experience a search than I would be with the color of their skin.

[mnealtx 0]

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>In a Utopia Mecca where unlimited funds are available to check every
> single person, your ideas would be admirable.

?? Estimates to search every passenger on every airline flight run about 2 billion a year. We spend about 50 billion a year on the Iraq war; one of the revised goals of the war is to "keep us safe from terrorism." If you can accomplish that goal with 4% of the money we spend on Iraq why wouldn't you?

Or you can choose not to; that's fine. But then we should admit it. "We want the war; we don't really want airline security." In which case just apply the lesser security to everyone. We'll lose an airplane once in a while, but it will be cheap and easy and won't cut into war funding.

>If thats going to entail racial profiling, so be it.

Racial profiling (the real definition, not the PC definition) will decrease the effectiveness of our security by leaving intentional holes in it.

>I can't recall a single incident of them using an airplane as a bomb.

Let's go with this line of thinking. "I can't recall a single incident of any terrorist using an MD-80 as a bomb. So clearly we shouldn't search passengers on MD-80's. We should stick to the known profiles, and that means searching passengers only on 757's and 767's." That would save money too! And I'm sure the terrorists would never figure it out and switch airplanes.

>I also don't want limited Homeland Security Funds being spent to
> check everyone, if thats going to increase the odds of uncovering an
> attack.

That's fine. Don't check everyone, save money, and live with the greater odds of not discovering an impending attack. But for god's sake don't complain about it afterwards.

Bill, your argument against profiling seems to be based on the presumption that we would ONLY be looking for, say, "blue haired ladies over 70 years old". I don't think that's what anyone is suggesting.

Why is it such a problem to keep the current system and give extra scrutiny to certain profiles? I know that I certainly got extra scrutiny when I was flying back and forth to Saudi Arabia when I was working at Prince Sultan Air Base, just because of where I was flying to.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[TheAnvil 0]

By your strict definition the policeman searching for a white kidnapping suspect driving a Chevy Nova who pulls over a white fellow driving such a Nova in lieu of a Hispanic gent driving an identical Nova is racist. Ludicrous by any means. Merriam-Webster's primary definition of racism - a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race, is the far better definition. Believe whatever you like.

You are correct - racial profiling would have caught none of the bombers you mentioned. Because they have no common ethnicity, religion, modus operandus, cause, or even venue. Unlike Islamic terrorists. Your attempt to equate/compare the people from your list of miscreants to the Islamic terrorists is quite humorous.

So you would not search the 21 y/o Syrian more thoroughly than the grandma in the example I presented, eh? Thank God you're not in charge of TSA. In a situation when Islamic terrorists HAVE threatened to attack the United States, NOT paying more attention to those who fit the profile of such terrorists is simply inane. Those decrying doing so because it's 'racial profiling' really need to get a clue. The fact that some of those same people support racial discrimination for things that are far more important in life than a five minute inconvenience at the airport, such as getting into a school, getting a job, getting a promotion, getting a scholarship - minor [sic] things like that, is disgusting.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 2,148]

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Were you in favor of profiling after the Oklahoma City and Atlanta bombings?

Wendy W.

Ohhh, the standard, (and much over used) Liberal Zinger. Yes, if they had attempted to blow up an airliner, I would have been for profiling anyone who fit their profile.

So you'd profile white guys (but not arabs) trying to enter parks and federal buildings, then, just to be consistent.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,148]

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The security experts from El Al airlines disagree with you. What a lousy record they have.

You guys can't keep on the same page.

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You say there were no militant gun owner groups. GM says we were just ignoring the Islamic ones (largely true by my viewing of the Clinton Administration). Until 2001, the white ones killed more Americans.

Nope, the arabs had killed more. Remember the Marine Corp Barracks etc? We also forgot about the first WTC bombing, the downing of US Airliners, The Achille Laurel and many other terrorist attacks against Americans. We only started to pay attention when they brought the war to American soil. Now there are people who try to muddy up the fact that the greatest threat to Americans isn't white separatists. It's Islamic Terrorists, plain and simple.

Irish terrorists have killed over 3,000. I supopose that doesn't count because they're white.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[Gravitymaster 0]

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Irish terrorists have killed over 3,000. I supopose that doesn't count because they're white.

Irish terrorist killed over 3000 in Britian and Ireland. The British Police did profile them in Britian and Ireland. Would you have expected the British Police to give equal attention to Muslims, Jamaicans, Spanish etc.? Would you have considered profiling non-Irish a waste of time and money? Did the IRA try to fake out the Police by using Muslims as bombers?

[kallend 2,148]

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Irish terrorists have killed over 3,000. I supopose that doesn't count because they're white.

Irish terrorist killed over 3000 in Britian and Ireland. The British Police did profile them in Britian and Ireland. Would you have expected the British Police to give equal attention to Muslims, Jamaicans, Spanish etc.? Would you have considered profiling non-Irish a waste of time and money? Did the IRA try to fake out the Police by using Muslims as bombers?

Silly me - there I was thinking this was an international war on terrorism, that airliners can cross international borders, and that Britain was a close ally.

How about profiling white guys entering parks and federal buildings?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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So you'd profile white guys (but not arabs) trying to enter parks and federal buildings, then, just to be consistent.

You bet I would and the Govt. did. What do you think would have happened if you'd been driving around a Federal building in a Ryder Truck after the OKC bombings? Do you think you'd have been given more scrutiny than a black woman driving a U-haul?

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Irish terrorists have killed over 3,000. I supopose that doesn't count because they're white.

Irish terrorist killed over 3000 in Britian and Ireland. The British Police did profile them in Britian and Ireland. Would you have expected the British Police to give equal attention to Muslims, Jamaicans, Spanish etc.? Would you have considered profiling non-Irish a waste of time and money? Did the IRA try to fake out the Police by using Muslims as bombers?

Silly me - there I was thinking this was an international war on terrorism, that airliners can cross international borders, and that Britain was a close ally.

How about profiling white guys entering parks and federal buildings?

You were the one who brought up Irish terrorists. The Police would have wasted time and money by profiling outside of Britian and Ireland, which is my point about focusing resources where they will be the most effective. Part of profiling includes information about how a criminal carries out the crime. Your argument that the only determination is race is ridiculous. Race is only a factor in profiling.