Tent City, Arizona - should prison really be this tough?

[Newbie 0]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3735826.stm

That place sounds horrific - i would love to know what the reoffending numbers are for those coming out of Tent City.

I personally think prison, for all sane people, should be just over the borderline of humane, but should also offer them a chance to improve themselves should they really want it. After all, you have to aloow them to reform their behaviour if they want to better themselves, study etc. I think it's naive to think that just by working them like slaves and putting them in awful conditions, it will eradicate crime because it makes them scared to return to those conditions. It will just most likely transfer it elsewhere. Sure it's then "not your problem", but it's not a great long term solution.

If prisoners don't care, and don't want to assimilate away from a life of crime into a normal society, or better themselves, then i think prisons more along these lines are the way to go.

What do you guys think?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[mnealtx 0]

I read someplace (unfortunately, it was many years ago and I can't find it now) that the recidivism rate from the harsher prisons of years past was many times less than the less harsh prison that we have now.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[beowulf 1]

Fuck that. I think prison should be the most miserable fucking place on earth. Once you get sentenced you should no longer have any rights and should be treated like shit. Punishment should be punishment. Not fuckin kindergarten!

[Mike111 0]

But doesn't that often have the reverse effect/ Prisoners become so alienated from society that they go and reoffend again as no attempt to help them get back to a normal life AT the the same timne as punishing them has been made.

Then they often go straight back to prison.

Just my 0.02

[beowulf 1]

The current system doesn't work. Why make things easy for people that are being punished? The current prisons often turn out better criminals.

[Mike111 0]

Agreed. But one reason they turn out better criminals is because they all learn from each other new tricks of the trade - they would do that anyway reardless of how severe or strict they were.

Putting them all in Solitary could do the trick, but wouldn;t go down well with the old human rights.

I agree you shouldn;t make them easy, they should be punished harshly yes. But excessive punishment doesn't do the trick.

There needs to be a balance between the prsion on the article and the prisons of today.

However that is eays to say and easy to say what should be done considering i don't have to do it,
but thats my 0.02 again.

[wmw999 2,641]

When someone comes out of prison, often they have no hope of doing something constructive, because no one will hire them, and no one wants them around. Yes, they should have thought of that before offending, but unless we just kill everyone just getting out of prison, it's not very helpful.

To me, prision should house, humanely but without frills, the people who aren't interested in doing better. They should work in something reasonably physically demanding, without, again, its being unduly punitive. But tired people are less likely to be rowdy than bored people.

But once you sign up for school, or begin to cooperate with the system, then maybe it's time for more.

This doesn't help a whole lot with the folks who are currently in supermax prisons, and solitary.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to try to set up ways that young kids don't end up going down that path, rather than saying something like "well, they just should have worked harder." Some should have. Some never had a good example to emulate. Yeah, sucks to be them. Sucks to be their victims, too.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Mike111 0]

"When someone... them Around" - Unfortunately, thats one of the downsides which these people face. I feel sorry for them in some ways , because one stupid error they made can often ruin the rest of their life even if they only go to jail for a year or so.

The two ideas you made about working hard but fairly and then being encouraged with more when they start to cooperate i think are really good. IMHO, its a really good balance between demonstrating the severity of the crime while also pointing a way out for the future.

And, like you said, education is needed to curb the view that "prison is cool, im hard cos i went to prison etc etc" in young kids, although how this to be achieved i have no idea.

Thanks, that was a really good, informative post.

[beowulf 1]

If you wear their asses off all day busting rocks or digging ditches, they won't have any time to learn any new shit. I don't believe in rehabilitation after a certain age. Kids are different they could still have a chance to learn.

[rehmwa 2]

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because one stupid error they made can often ruin the rest of their life even if they only go to jail for a year or so.

It's not about that person - their one stupid choice may have ruined someone else's life - and they've shown the potential to ruin another's life, that's why they are in prison - to protect from doing it again.

Consequences are a bitch.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[fallingchip 0]

Most prisons now are a Club Med. TV(with cable), weight rooms, 3 hot meals a day, warm environment in the winter, cool environment in the summer, no responsibilities, ect. Some are a little less lavish, but the most are a retreat.

There are people who violate probation on purpose just to go back. I know, I have arrested them. If prison is miserable, not inhumane, but miserable, the criminals will work for education while in prison and work even harder outside of prison not to go back. There are some who won't be rehabed, but most would, IMO, if they knew they were going back to a shithole.

______________________________________________
"A radical man is a man with both feet firmly planted in the air."
-Franklin Delano Roosevelt

[beowulf 1]

exactly what a prison should not be. If I were in charge it would definitely be more like tent city in AZ.

Just enough to survive but not comfortable.

[fallingchip 0]

...don't forget that you (and I) pay for these frills.

______________________________________________
"A radical man is a man with both feet firmly planted in the air."
-Franklin Delano Roosevelt

[beowulf 1]

Yeah no kidding. I don't like to think about that. Too many bleeding heart liberals thinking "awww poor people having to be in prisons. Lets make it easier for them."
Fuck that! When those people get out of prison they should be kissing the ground and praying they never go back in.

[ryoder 1,590]

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If you wear their asses off all day busting rocks or digging ditches, they won't have any time to learn any new shit. I don't believe in rehabilitation after a certain age. Kids are different they could still have a chance to learn.

You have it backward. Recidivism rates fall off after age 35, (except for child molesters). In fact, you look at some of the studies, an argument could be made that sentences for offenders under 35 should be based on keeping the offender in prison until he is a certain age, rather than a certain numbers of years.

And as for wanting our prisons to be as harsh as possible, all I can say is you must have a really naive view of the infallability of our criminal justice system.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[beowulf 1]

No I understand that plenty of people are wrongly imprisoned. But that doesn't mean we should make it into Club Med. It would suck to be falsely imprisoned, but not all people in prison are innocent. You can't make a prison that caters to both innocent and guilty and expect the guilty to still feel the punishment.

[fallingchip 0]

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And as for wanting our prisons to be as harsh as possible, all I can say is you must have a really naive view of the infallability of our criminal justice system.

Do you think the "Club Med" way is a better alternative than a humane but harsh way?

______________________________________________
"A radical man is a man with both feet firmly planted in the air."
-Franklin Delano Roosevelt

[ryoder 1,590]

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And as for wanting our prisons to be as harsh as possible, all I can say is you must have a really naive view of the infallability of our criminal justice system.

Do you think the "Club Med" way is a better alternative than a humane but harsh way?

OK this is the 2nd post claiming that I am advocating a "Club Med"!
WHERE DID I SAY THAT?

That fact is I think prisons should keep prisoners employed in agricultural/industrial trades that will enable them to have useful skills when they leave, and enable the prison to sell the goods and services so that the prisoners are earning their own keep rather than living completely on tax-payer dollars.

A prisoner leaves prison with a criminal record that makes it damn hard to find employment. If he had a professional career it is probably impossible to resume it. This already encourages him to resume a life of crime. I don't see how subjecting him to harsh treatment just just for the sake of harsh treatment is going to accomplish anything but make the person meaner.

If you have a dog that is behaving badly, you don't lock him in a cage and treat him harshly, then expect to release him later and have him be a friendly family pet that is safe with kids.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[beowulf 1]

They have been trying to rehabilitate prisoners and it hasn't been working.

[Mike111 0]

Fair enough. but what would you do though once they have finished their term and were above the "certain age"?

[Mike111 0]

Although the victim's life may be ruined, if it was a minor case, they to would recover in time - hnce why there needs to be thought into rehabilitation. But if there was a murder, the prisoner is in for life anyway, so rehab doesnt really matter cos they will die in jail anyway, thus justifying the fatc the victim relatives may never recover from it.

just my 0.02

[rehmwa 2]

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Although the victim's life may be ruined, if it was a minor case, they to would recover in time - hnce why there needs to be thought into rehabilitation. But if there was a murder, the prisoner is in for life anyway, so rehab doesnt really matter cos they will die in jail anyway, thus justifying the fatc the victim relatives may never recover from it.

my 2 cents - who cares about the victim or his family? - they were already victimized and you can't take it back. If they recover or not, the criminal is still a criminal.

This is so missed in the concept of justice - it's not about closure (victims) or rehabilitation (the criminal), it's about protecting the rest of society (potential victims) from repeat offenses by someone proven capable of the act.

If rehab worksb - fine, but it's up to the criminal, not the rest of society. And our goal should be foremost protect the rest of us. Anything else is just social experimentation and people trying to feel good about themselves because they don't get the overall purpose.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[shropshire 0]

Are you tarring all prisoners with the same brush or are there different degrees of criminality?
Basically, should violent and non-violent law breakers be treated the same?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[beowulf 1]

They would have to be very hardcore to risk coming back to my prison. I would make sure that the experience would leave a very indelible mark on their memory.

I sure hope you aren't counting rape and pedophilia in your category of "minor case".

[wmw999 2,641]

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it's about protecting the rest of society (potential victims) from repeat offenses by someone proven capable of the act.

While I agree about the closure (it's icing when it happens), if you can legitimately rehabilitate someone (i.e. have them end up in a legitimate lifestyle), then you ARE protecting the rest of the public.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)