Time to buy oil from someone else....

[Trent 0]

Chavez descends further down the path of jackassery...


Chavez: U.S. will 'bite the dust' if it invades:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/08/09/chavez.invasion.ap/index.html

Venezuela suspends anti-drug cooperation :
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/08/07/venezuela.drugs.reut/index.html

This guy is an aspiring Kim Jong Il. Megolomania built on destroying his own country from the inside out. Wow.

Oh, hello again!

[billvon 3,120]

>Time to buy oil from someone else....

Are you kidding? We'd rather have a few more wars than buy less oil. Giving up our SUV's is just plain out of the question.

[ViperPilot 0]

Yep, Chavez is a complete idiot. If he is right about us trying to assasinate him, then why oh why did we have to screw that one up? Damn, if only we could have done that the right way

And China is also to blame for the ridiculous prices. So, lets not put all the blame on poor old Chavez.

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

Giving up our SUV's is just plain out of the question.

Why just pick on SUVs? Some of them are tiny and get decent gas mileage. Others are huge and suck it fast. Some people like powerful sports cars, large luxury cars, large vans, pickups, etc. that also get lousy mileage. A minivan doesn't get any better mileage, but is not automatically considered evil.

There are lots of ways to be wasteful, including driving long distances to go mountain biking, skiing, and repeatedly taking rides in airplanes for amusement.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,120]

>Why just pick on SUVs?

In 1975, CAFE laws were introduced that required cars to get better gas mileage, primarily as a result of the oil shortages of the early 70's. They worked well - gas mileage rose overall. Mileage kept rising until manufacturers began to take advantage of the SUV loophole - an exception that allowed SUV's, on average, to get much lower gas milege than cars. It was intended to allow contractors to have cheaper trucks, but it has been misused by automakers to stick inefficient powertrains in as many of their vehicles as possible. Over the past fifteen years or so this has caused average gas mileage to go _down._ That's due exclusively to SUV's. Closing this loophole would save over a million barrels of oil a day.

There is nothing wrong with a large vehicle used as intended. Want to get a Cadillac and drive three other people to work in comfort? No problem. Want to get a minivan to take the kids to soccer practice? Great; your PMPG (passenger miles per gallon) is going to be really high. Want to get a truck to carry hay to the feedlot? That's what they are designed for.

But if you buy an Escalade to take yourself, alone, to and from work every day - that's wasteful.

This thread started off about how to stop supporting an evil dictator. We import around 1.2 million barrels a day from Venezuela. Want to really stick it to Chavez? Close the loophole and stop buying his oil. Don't care who we support? Fire up the SUV.

[bodypilot90 0]

Quote

Are you kidding? We'd rather have a few more wars than buy less oil. Giving up our SUV's is just plain out of the question.

I got a better idea, let's stop making kids go all the way across county to go to school. A hour bus ride each way in a bus that gets 5 or 6 miles per gal. But that would not be PC. It would save school systems and tax money to use for the classroom. Not only fuel but maintenance and replacement costs.

[markd_nscr986 0]

***Giving up our SUV's is just plain out of the question.

Oh my,

Blaming the "evil" SUV's again?

That makes a lot of sense

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[billvon 3,120]

>A hour bus ride each way in a bus that gets 5 or 6 miles per gal.

A bus like that with 20 kids on it is getting 100 passenger-miles per gallon. You're better off doing that than having mom drive each kid to school 10 miles. Again, it's not the SUV's carrying hay to the pasture, or the bus carrying kids - it's the single SUV carrying one guy 60 miles to and from work.

[rehmwa 2]

Market forces will drive behavior more effectively than any of your taxes or proposed social control laws.

Heck - now that gas is pushing $2.50 per here and the wife took the summer off, I'm driving the little Saturn to work (35+ mpg) instead of the F-150 (14 mpg). I prefer the truck, but for commuting, it doesn't make sense anymore. (It still makes sense to haul the camper).

And if we're climbing tonight, it now makes more economic sense for me to go get them from home rather than meet them at the gym driving 2 cars. Same for going to the airport now.

We didn't need a special tax or new government regulations to make those decisions. More and more people will do the same as the prices increase.

It still isn't cost effective to sell the truck for something else yet.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,120]

>Market forces will drive behavior more effectively than any of your
> taxes or proposed social control laws.

Market forces only work with things that have a normal supply/demand curve. Since no one is creating any more oil, market forces will not work to apportion oil in the long run. (Well, literally speaking they will, but you would not like the 'market correction.')

>We didn't need a special tax or new government regulations to make
> those decisions. More and more people will do the same as the
> prices increase.

You made those decisions (good decisions, apparently) even though we have CAFE laws now. With those laws, more people own cars than ever before, they are more affordable (accounting for inflation) and we managed to push the oil spike back a few years. Closing the loopholes will reduce the rate of rise of oil prices and allow people to adapt to the changes.

>It still isn't cost effective to sell the truck for something else yet.

Let's hope that oil prices rise slowly enough that you are able to make such adjustments when you need to.

[storm1977 0]

Quote

>Why just pick on SUVs?

In 1975, CAFE laws were introduced that required cars to get better gas mileage, primarily as a result of the oil shortages of the early 70's. They worked well - gas mileage rose overall. Mileage kept rising until manufacturers began to take advantage of the SUV loophole - an exception that allowed SUV's, on average, to get much lower gas milege than cars. It was intended to allow contractors to have cheaper trucks, but it has been misused by automakers to stick inefficient powertrains in as many of their vehicles as possible. Over the past fifteen years or so this has caused average gas mileage to go _down._ That's due exclusively to SUV's. Closing this loophole would save over a million barrels of oil a day.

There is nothing wrong with a large vehicle used as intended. Want to get a Cadillac and drive three other people to work in comfort? No problem. Want to get a minivan to take the kids to soccer practice? Great; your PMPG (passenger miles per gallon) is going to be really high. Want to get a truck to carry hay to the feedlot? That's what they are designed for.

But if you buy an Escalade to take yourself, alone, to and from work every day - that's wasteful.

This thread started off about how to stop supporting an evil dictator. We import around 1.2 million barrels a day from Venezuela. Want to really stick it to Chavez? Close the loophole and stop buying his oil. Don't care who we support? Fire up the SUV.

Bill,
The people who can afford to spend 70,000 dollars on an H2 that gets 9miles/gallon are the same ones that don't really give a shit if gas is 5$/gallon. They can obviouly afford the expence.

I don't think legislation is the way to go. Personal responsability is.
I have vehicles. A car and a truck. When driving distances I use the subaru (28mi/gal) but when I haul stuff like wood and dirt, i use my truck (15mi/gal).

In the USA, we really don't need the government legislating anything else in our personal lives.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[storm1977 0]

I think the bigger problem in the US right now are the refinaries.

Sure demand is high, but made higher by under producing refinaries or a lack of them.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

>It still isn't cost effective to sell the truck for something else yet.

Let's hope that oil prices rise slowly enough that you are able to make such adjustments when you need to.

Best comment yet. I can make the adjustment easily - buy another vehicle. The trouble is, who would want to buy the 'extra' truck if it costs so much to operate. So I hope the prices move slowly too so there will be a buyer out there with more tolerance to gas prices when it happens. I won't need to haul the camper that much - boogies suck more and more the last few years.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[gravitational 0]

Quote

A minivan doesn't get any better mileage, but is not automatically considered evil.

Place a minivan in a trendy family neighborhood, sprinkle in a few screaming kids watching a DVD and a lost soccer mom on the cell, oh baby. Very evil vehicle.

------
Michael

[Trent 0]

Did anyone actually read the 2 articles? Chavez is pushing quickly towards a totalitarian anti-American socialist government with allies like China, Iran, Cuba, Colombian drug lords, etc.

Sometimes I wonder if anyone in our government is paying attention to what is going on down there and in places like China. We have things to worry about.

The only reason I brought oil into this is because it would be a nice "fuck you" to Chavez if we shifted the oil purchases somewhere else to teach his dumb-ass a lesson.

Oh, hello again!

[storm1977 0]

I agree, but where? Saudi? Iran?

Not too many friendlys out there that aren't already trying
to F*** us.
What about Mexico??? They have oil don't they?

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Did anyone actually read the 2 articles? Chavez is pushing quickly towards a totalitarian anti-American socialist government with allies like China, Iran, Cuba, Colombian drug lords, etc.

Sometimes I wonder if anyone in our government is paying attention to what is going on down there and in places like China. We have things to worry about.

The only reason I brought oil into this is because it would be a nice "fuck you" to Chavez if we shifted the oil purchases somewhere else to teach his dumb-ass a lesson.

Problem is if the US doesn't buy his oil, another country like China will. Don't forget that AQ is very active in SA and Chavez was put into office in no small part due to the efforts and financial support of Castro.

[jdhill 0]

Quote

A bus like that with 20 kids on it is getting 100 passenger-miles per gallon

I think his point was that forced busing for social purposes / demographic balancing is costly and wasteful... bus a bus load of kids from school A's district to school B (say 20 miles), and a bus load from school B's district to school A (another 20 miles), instead of busing those same kids to the school that they are closest to (say 10 miles for each group)... any way you cut it, its half the gas.

Are other gas hogs a problem, sure... but you can't possibly say that there is not a benifit to a gas guzzeling buss being on the road half as often.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[gravitational 0]

Not really a response to any...If you're curious what it costs to drive your vechicle, start filling in all the blanks on the attached.

Here's what I know from filling in the blanks -
2003 2wd Ranger Supercab - 20.349 mpg for life of vehicle (23.930 mpg since I moved back to CO) Vechicle sold July 05

2005 Subaru Outback - 26.833 mpg. (driven highway daily between Silverthorne and Vail, CO)

2005 Honda Shadow Spirit 750 - 47.701 mpg. I generally use this to run errands (post office run, lunch, etc.) and leisure riding.

2005 Chevy Trailblazer - 17.024 mpg. My vehicle. I'm homebased so I don't drive it that much. Mostly to the DZ or to/from the airport if I'm on the road.

Bill - Am I missing anything on the spreadsheet?

------
Michael

[billvon 3,120]

>Sure demand is high, but made higher by under producing refinaries
>or a lack of them.

That statement makes no sense. If refineries could not process enough oil, oil would start sitting on supertankers and storage facilities until they could process it. A surplus of supply that a seller can't move means prices drop. Since the opposite is happening, that's not the case.

[Trent 0]

Quote

I agree, but where? Saudi? Iran?

Russia, Mexico... hell, why not Iraq?

Like GravityMaster said, someone else will just swoop in to buy his oil. He's already deep under the covers with the Chinese anyway, but I bet it'd still make a dent for a while if it wasn't going to us anymore.

And since this thread became an oil thread more than a Chavez thread... BillV, whatever happened to it being profitable to start getting oil from shale and sandstone as long as the price per barrell is above $43? Didn't we talk about that a while ago? It'd be nice if some US oil companies got off their asses and got to work on this.

Oh, hello again!

[storm1977 0]

Quote

"Refineries like to run full-out at this time of the year," said Jim Ritterbusch, analyst at Ritterbusch & Associates. "We're between two periods of seasonal maintenance, trying to build up distillates and keep up with gasoline demand."

"The good news is that these high refinery runs have given us a distillate supply surplus. But we've seen erosion in the gasoline surplus, and that surplus could be erased by mid to late August, especially with refinery snags."

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[billvon 3,120]

>I can make the adjustment easily - buy another vehicle.

Right now, depending on what you want, you can't. You can't get a natural gas truck. You can't get an electric vehicle. If gas prices increase slowly, then manufacturers will make these available. If gas prices increase rapidly, then they won't have time; you'll have to buy another gas-powered vehicle that gets marginally better gas mileage, and that won't help much. So the adjustment you will make will not be to buy the nonexistent vehicle, but to not drive. (Maybe not you, but someone with less money could certainly find themselves in this position.)

Problem is it's not just him. Airlines will stop flying until they can buy more efficient aircraft. Shipping companies will stop shipping until they can get more efficient/alternate fuel trucks and ships, and the fuel to run them. And if it takes five years to develop them - that's a five year depression to deal with.

Now, you could argue that the government shouldn't care about the economy, that they should be just as happy with a depression as with a boom. We've been moving away from that ever since 1929, though - most voters think the government _should_ get involved with the economy, and twiddle with lending rates, government contracts and tax rates to try to encourage growth because people like growth. Heck, the government needs the economy to do well - that's where taxes come from nowadays.

And if you buy into the theory that the government should help avoid depressions, then the government has a huge interest in not having oil prices increase so fast that the economy can't adapt. And if that's the case, the time to do something is _right_now_ - when we still have the cheapest gas prices on the planet. If we wait until gas is $10/gallon, it will be too late, and the voters will get the government to do something even worse, like price caps.

[storm1977 0]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050729/us_nm/energy_refineries_accidents_dc

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[billvon 3,120]

>BillV, whatever happened to it being profitable to start getting oil
> from shale and sandstone as long as the price per barrell is above
> $43?

Again, that will work as long as we have time to do that. CAFE laws, hybrid incentives, electric vehicle programs, ZEV mandates - all of these are stopgap measures. At best they will slow the rate of increase in demand, and push that $10/gallon gas from two years in the future to ten. And if we have ten years, we can get to those tar sands.