60th anniversary of Nagasaki

[bodypilot90 0]

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He insists they were not good targets, were the facts say otherwise, he does not respond to the question about the Tokyo raids, earlier, which caused more casualties, ignores the political Japanese atmosphere at the time, etc, etc.....boy this is like watching Jerry Springer

na more like trying to reason with Michael Moore, posterboy for the left

[kelpdiver 2]

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If it wasn't a test.... why would they need good Viz? Even with those early bombs, close would have been close enough.

the blast radius for destruction of concrete buildings was only 500m for Hiroshima. 750m for Nagasaki, and a total destruction of but 6.7 sq km. Aiming mattered. While we wanted to convey the notion that we had a lot of these guys sitting around, I believe those 2 were it for immediate use. Dropping it into an empty valley would have wasted it.

Think about how far off target skydivers can spot, starting from a lower elevation and with a view of the ground.

And yeah, there were tests as well.

[billvon 3,132]

>Even with those early bombs, close would have been close enough.

I think you overestimate the number of GPS satellites that had been launched by the end of the second world war.

Aircraft used dead reckoning, sextants and clocks to calculate their positions, and magnetic compasses to determine their course. There were some experimental radio navigation systems, but the Japanese typically did not cooperate by marking their targets with these beacons. Thus without visual contact, accuracy was _really_ bad over enemy territory (like as in five miles off bad.)

By the end of the war they were starting to experiment with radar for navigation and target-determination purposes, but it was not yet very accurate.

[billvon 3,132]

>na more like trying to reason with Michael Moore, posterboy for the left . . .

Enough. This is a forum to discuss topics, not attack other posters.

[shropshire 0]

Sorry, Bill I was an RAF techie, so I know about Nav Aids (or lack of them during WW2)..... what I dont know was how bad the Viz was at the primary at the time.... did they have any ground sightings, if so they could have dropped... they would only need clear skies for the result cameras.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[billvon 3,132]

>did they have any ground sightings, if so they could have dropped . . .

Ok, got you.

[mnealtx 0]

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>Even with those early bombs, close would have been close enough.

I think you overestimate the number of GPS satellites that had been launched by the end of the second world war.

Aircraft used dead reckoning, sextants and clocks to calculate their positions, and magnetic compasses to determine their course. There were some experimental radio navigation systems, but the Japanese typically did not cooperate by marking their targets with these beacons. Thus without visual contact, accuracy was _really_ bad over enemy territory (like as in five miles off bad.)

By the end of the war they were starting to experiment with radar for navigation and target-determination purposes, but it was not yet very accurate.

Um.... how could they have GPS satellites by the end of WWII, when Sputnik didn't even launch until 1957?

Or do you mean LORAN?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Casurf1978 0]

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Wrong, it was the emperor and the government who kept the war going, not the average citizen

It was the war council that kept the war going. You really, really need to read up on Japanese history. I could write pages and pages on the war council. FYI the council was evenly divided as to surrender or keep on fighting. This was even AFTER the second bomb. Also remember we gave Japan and out and they didnt even reply.

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Who knows? my guess is that it was dropped over civilians rather than on the head of the government where probably would have had a bigger impact.

Again please read up on Japanese history. The Emperor WAS GOD to them. We take out the Emperor and the head of the Gov, who wouldve stopped the war?

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The U.S is the only country that justifies such atrocities. Dude, my country´s record is not better than anyone else´s country, but at least we are not proud or even attempt to justify the spanish inquisition, or the mass killings in south america, just to mention only a couple.

DUDE please. What American is proud of the A-bomb?Have you ANY idea as to how many people died fighting the war in Europe. Have you any idea how many more wouldve died in the Pacific if we prolonged the war. Read up on the battles of the Pacific, mainly the island fights and you will see what I'm talking about. FYI Oppenheimer and Fermi both said to Truman that they agreed with the decision to drop the bomb.

For some reason I think you would be crucifying us even if we didnt drop the bomb and we launched a land invasion that some say wouldve cost us 500K soldiers and hundred of thousands maybe close to a million Japanese civilians. Damned if we do, damned if we dont.

If you are so against the decision what would you have done to end the war.

[juanesky 0]

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If you are so against the decision what would you have done to end the war.

^

Most likely as he has stated before, he would have RAN away as fast as he can....

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Botellines 0]

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If you are so against the decision what would you have done to end the war.

^

Most likely as he has stated before, he would have RAN away as fast as he can....

Where have i stated that i would ran away?
For god´s shake, look who is talking. If i don´t like my country, i would try to fix it instead of running away to another country. Unlike you.

Dude, stop making a fool of yourself and brown nosing anyone who disagrees with me, and start putting some substance in your posts (ask for help if you are unable). If not, feel free to ignore me and my posts.

And please, don´t get into personal attacks, with your attitude, i doubt anyone would like you in bonfire. (or anywhere else, for that matter )

[Botellines 0]

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If you are so against the decision what would you have done to end the war.

Sorry, i am not a four star general with several masters in world strategy. What i can tell you, is what i would not do given the circumstances.

I don´t know how anyone can be so sure it was the best and only option when even the historians, who know more facts than me and probably you, don´t seem to agree.

It is even more unbeliebable to me how even now that it is done there is still people who not only things that it was the best and only option, but also celebrate it.

I am off to celebrate the spanish inquisition, party on!!!!

Edited to give you a straighter answer. Personally, I would have gone after the emperor and the rest of the government who didn´t want to sign the peace treaty.
Without the government, the military would have had a hard time getting organized and continue the attack. Maybe the war would have continued, maybe the war would have ended. We will never know, but i think it would have been a much better choice, and very likely it would have spared many civilians lifes.

[maxmadmax 8]

Let's see...the fucking Japs were holding 250,000 war prisoners.....

And the fucking Japs fully intended to slaughter every one of them......if we invaded.

And lets not forget the fucking Japs and the Bataan March....


Gosh, hope I haven't offended anyone in here!

Damn right it was worth it!

Don't go away mad....just go away!

[juanesky 0]

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Where have i stated that i would ran away?

In an old police thread, where you seem very much against of people having the means of defend themselves without any other options available.

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For god´s shake, look who is talking. If i don´t like my country, i would try to fix it instead of running away to another country. Unlike you.

So I guess you know my own story better than I do.....

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Dude, stop making a fool of yourself and brown nosing anyone who disagrees with me, and start putting some substance in your posts (ask for help if you are unable).

Everytime I confront you with facts you simply avoid them.

You prefer to ignore with blatant disregard as to what the reasons were to this A-bombs used in Japan.

Do not show at least a basic knowledge of the culture, the technology at the time, what was Japan like at the time. Did you even know that large portion of their own civilian population was commiting suicide when Okinawa and Iwo Jima occupation occurred

The fact that you don't speak up for the 100,000 deaths in a tokyo raid on March 29th, 1945, using conventional bombs, which created more devastation than one A-bomb rings less credibility to your posts. Where is your reply to that matter? Are you simply upset and fail to discuss this in a more intelligent manner? Where is your outrage there?

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If not, feel free to ignore me and my posts.

I invite you to do the same.

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And please, don´t get into personal attacks, with your attitude, i doubt anyone would like you in bonfire. (or anywhere else, for that matter )

You see when you say that I am a peon, or brown nosing, or racist, you are also reflecting the same attitude, the difference is the loudness in your 'crying foul', I prefer to stand my ground and face the BS....not turn around and run, as you once implied that is your choice if ever confronted with a criminal in a police shooting thread.....

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Tonto 1]

That day again.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[juanesky 0]

Yes, lets not forget the 30mill innocents killed at the hands of the Japanese forces through enslaving, brutal assasinations, biological experiments.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[tbrown 26]

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So, today is the 60th anniversary of the bomb over Nagasaki. Was it necessary? 74.000 killed. 75.000 wounded. Was it worth it?

First of all, I may very well owe my existence to the atom bomb. My father was on his way to his pre-induction physical on V-J Day, on the elevated New York Subway when all the bells and sirens in NYC started going off because the Japs had thrown in the towel. If they hadn't called it quits that day, he might very well have been killed in the invasion of mainland Japan, and not met, married, or "made whoopee" with my mother.

Let's not forget that all the estimates were leaning towards the war going on for another SEVEN years. That's right folks, 1952, that's how long they thought it might take, even with our Soviet allies invading Manchuria while we hit the beaches on the homeland islands. Our experiences on Iwo Jima and Okinawa earlier that year, with the Japanese Army dug into caves and civilians jumping en masse off cliffs rather than surrender to American forces weren't inspiring any degree of confidence among those attempting to plan the end game against the Empire. We'd already spilled enough blood and guts getting rid of Hitler and frankly America was not looking forward to another seven years of carnage with the Japs.

When I see these annual Hiroshima and Nagasaki Day remembrances, I am of two minds. When the people of these two cities remember their suffering and call for all nations to eliminate their nuclear weapons, I can't help but think that would be the better thing to do for all of us. I don't dicount their sufferings for a moment. In terms of modern nuclear weapons they "lucked out", only being hit with early primitive models nowhere near the destructive power of today's nukes. Their suffering really SHOULD be a lesson to us all.

But the other side of the coin is that the U.S. didn't just decide to drop the bomb on the Japanese for no apparent reason other than the meanness of our white skins. These people had tried to conquer their part of the world. They were assholes, not just to British and American prisoners, who they starved, beheaded and bayoneted, but also to their Asian "brothers". The Japanese treated their Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Burmese, and Phillipine "bothers" like shit. They were just as EVIL to their Asian neighbors as they were to the Brit and American white devils. To this day they won't apologize for any of it, not even conscripting Korean women to be their involuntary whores.

I do NOT feel sorry for the Japanese. They brought their misfortune and suffering on themselves. If anything, the U.S. did them - and certainly ourselves - a kindness in bringing the Second World War to a quick and decisive end. And I think our post war policies that raised Japan back up to a major world economic power are proof of that. So yes, I do get sick and disgusted about how picked upon the poor fucking Japs feel about getting an ass kicking they richly deserved. Fuck 'em, we had five more bombs ready to go and we didn't use them. And that's a fact as well. We had more plutonium bombs ready to go, and we were taking one more uranium bomb apart to convert into another five plutonium bombs. We were ready to go on dropping those nukes for as long as it took to bring that war to an end. And were right to think that way.

The only reason we even bombed Nagasaki was that asshole Hirohito didn't surrender after Hiroshima. he had three fucking days and according to the historic record, his only concern was maintaining HIS royal staus. So we had to drop another one before he got the message that we wouldn't quit until he would. We should have hung his ass, and never let him visit Disneyland.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Gawain 0]

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Considering that Japan´s military forces were crippled, I don´t believe that droping two nuclear bombs over civilians was necesary.

That statement is a clear indicator of not understanding the Japanese culture or any sense of history of the battles that US Marines, Sailors and Soldiers faced in the Pacific Theater of the war.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[rasmack 0]

Nicely put.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Amazon 7]

I am right there with you Tom.

My Dad was in the Marines 1st Division....its amazing how many things he had already survived after Guadalcanal....going into Kyushu as the next step that was planned for NOV of 1945 would have meant hundreds of thousands more US casualties.. and millions of Japanese would have been killed... Personally after all the things they did in WWII.. I think they got off fairly easily for all the atrocities of killing MILLIONS of their neighbors in China and the rest of Asia.

[Casurf1978 0]

I'm right there with you and Tom too.

I just so sad that so many people suffered because of the actions of a few truly sick and evil men. I dont agree with capital punishment, but in all honesty I think the Emperor should've been hung for his actions during the war. But that's a whole different topic.

[georgerussia 0]

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So let me get this straight - we lose 3000 civilians in a terrorist attack and that's unacceptable (we agree there). BUT "74.000 killed. 75.000 wounded" (Don't know if those are the real numbers) are acceptable civilian losses because they are of another nationality or because we were at war with them?

That is absolutely correct.
The main reason for the State to exist is to protect its citizens at all cost. If it means someone else is going to be screwed really bad - well, bad for them, they have their own State to take care on them.

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