rhino 0 #1 August 3, 2005 http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/03/toddler.autopsy/index.html This is absolute bullshit. The LAPD should have been good enough not to shoot a child. Especially with a rifle round. That's bullshit. The LAPD is going to loose big on this one.. Prayers to the Suzie Marie Lopez and her family. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloudseeker2001 0 #2 August 3, 2005 No way in hell the LAPD will loose........ "Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance, others mean and rueful of the western dream" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #3 August 3, 2005 What happened to Susie is tragic. Most of the blame rests on Pena. This guy was no saint. Illegal alien from El Salvador with a long rap sheet. He was deported in 1995 on cocaine and weapons charges and reentered the USA shortly thereafter. In Feb 05 he was caught brandeshing a gun. Why he wasnt deported or incarcerated amazes me. This man should've been in jail. The LAPD is taking a lot of heat from this especially from the hispanic community. Again I say Pena is no saint like some in the community make him out to be. Here's a little tid bit of info on the LADP and SWAT team: (from USA Today) "In November, police shot a gunman who held a pregnant woman by the neck outside the Mexican Consulate. Officers pulled the woman away unharmed and the man later died. The following month, an officer shot and killed a carjacking suspect who burst into a crowded card club and took two people hostage at gunpoint. No one else was injured. The three shootings are the only since 1998 in which Los Angeles police officers have fired on hostage-takers, according to data from the city's civilian police commission. The final one was the only in which a hostage was hurt or died." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #4 August 3, 2005 First off this is old news Second you are quick to rush to judgement based on a Media report,althought I would expect nothing less. Did you read the autopsy report? You seem to be certain that she was killed by rifle shot. You either read the Autopsy report or you put way to much trust in the media. You article linked also claims "After officers fired repeatedly into the room, Pena and the infant were found dead, with an empty 9-mm handgun resting in the father's hand, police said. Authorities haven't determined which officer's weapon killed the infant. The medical examination found no projectiles in the girl's body, the report said." Now I realize they can probably tell the difference between a cannonball and a .308 round but I find it hard to believe without a fragment the medical examiner can determine without a doubt the shot fired was from a sniper. Don't be so fucking quick to rush to judgement. I am sure everyone involved feels terrible and it is a tragady no doubt, but the asshole was using his daughter as a shield and shooting officers. Could they have done a better job? sure- sounds like the guy was out of ammo also. Did they know that? I bet the officer gets cleared in the shooting. That is assuming they can determine which one it was. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #5 August 3, 2005 QuoteThe LAPD should have been good enough not to shoot a child. And how would you have handled the situation differently? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #6 August 3, 2005 The guy used his own 19 month old daughter as a human shield? That's pretty messed up. I'd say that the bulk of the responsibility lies with the father.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #7 August 3, 2005 Quotehttp://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/03/toddler.autopsy/index.html This is absolute bullshit. The LAPD should have been good enough not to shoot a child. Especially with a rifle round. That's bullshit. The LAPD is going to loose big on this one.. Prayers to the Suzie Marie Lopez and her family. Rhino There is no question that LAPD has some of the finest SWAT people in the world, and I'm sure that includes world-class police snipers. *Could* they have done better? I'm sure they could have. I haven't watched the video so I don't know how stationary the target was. Maybe that was a factor. Maybe winds were a factor. I don't know. What damn sure was a factor was that there is a psycho shithead holding that little girl putting her at risk. I don't think ANY of that blame should be shifted off of him and onto LAPD. He started it; they finished it. It was a real tragedy, but far less of a tragedy than the killings at Ruby Ridge. In that case, there was not one damn thing worth killing anyone over. In the LA case, I don't see that the police had all that much choice. The father did, and he chose to put that kid at risk. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #8 August 3, 2005 It's too bad that the scumbag decided to use his daughter as a human shield....... It's also too bad that he decided to open fire on LAPD wounding an officer in the process...... I dont feel bad that a scumbag has departed the planet early.........I feel bad that the infant did not get a chance at a full life But no one probably feels worse about the situation than the man that was forced to drop the hammer on the round that inadvertently ended the infants short life Second guessing and armchair quarterbacking do not become you Rhino........Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #9 August 4, 2005 QuoteThat's pretty messed up. I'd say that the bulk of the responsibility lies with the father. I can't disagree.. Knowing that the little girl's brain was blown out (with a high powered rifle) tells me a sharpshooter took a lousy shot. Whomever did it took a lousy shot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #10 August 4, 2005 QuoteWhat damn sure was a factor was that there is a psycho shithead holding that little girl putting her at risk. I don't think ANY of that blame should be shifted off of him and onto LAPD. He started it; they finished it. Are you a parent? Do you have a little girl of your own by chance? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #11 August 4, 2005 QuoteBut no one probably feels worse about the situation than the man that was forced to drop the hammer on the round that inadvertently ended the infants short lifeUnimpressed That's the truth.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #12 August 4, 2005 Quote Knowing that the little girl's brain was blown out (with a high powered rifle) tells me a sharpshooter took a lousy shot. Whomever did it took a lousy shot. I am still trying to figure out how you Know this. All the shots fired and you know it was from a sharpshooter. Do you have other knowledge other than the article you referenced? QuoteDo you have a little girl of your own by chance? I do not see how this is any more tragic because is was a little girl. Would this not bother you as much if it were a little boy? That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #13 August 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhat damn sure was a factor was that there is a psycho shithead holding that little girl putting her at risk. I don't think ANY of that blame should be shifted off of him and onto LAPD. He started it; they finished it. Are you a parent? Do you have a little girl of your own by chance? I've never had kids and hope I never do. I'm not slamming people who have kids; it's just not right for me. That being said, I cannot even pretend to know how you must feel as a parent. Any criticism you want to lay on me for a lack of understanding, well I'd have to admit it is probably justified. If you care to try and explain it to me, I will listen and think about what you say. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #14 August 4, 2005 QuoteThe guy used his own 19 month old daughter as a human shield? That's pretty messed up. I'd say that the bulk of the responsibility lies with the father. Would you blame the patient for being sick when the surgeon slices through the carotid artery? The responsibility lies with the professionals who fucked up in the performance of their duties in a difficult situation. jen----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #15 August 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe guy used his own 19 month old daughter as a human shield? That's pretty messed up. I'd say that the bulk of the responsibility lies with the father. Would you blame the patient for being sick when the surgeon slices through the carotid artery? The responsibility lies with the professionals who fucked up in the performance of their duties in a difficult situation. jen That's a pretty harsh comparison. The surgeon is normally in a much more controlled environment. I'm sure those police officers were *desperately* trying to save that girl's life and trying to keep from getting killed in the process. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #16 August 4, 2005 QuoteThat being said, I cannot even pretend to know how you must feel as a parent. Before I was a parent I would have likely responded the way you did. It changes you. No big deal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #17 August 4, 2005 QuoteThe responsibility lies with the professionals who fucked up in the performance of their duties in a difficult situation. Holy shit! We agree on something! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #18 August 4, 2005 QuoteI'm sure those police officers were *desperately* trying to save that girl's life and trying to keep from getting killed in the process. I guess that is why she was shot twice? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wopelao 0 #19 August 4, 2005 Well I guess that according to your views the father is not at fault at all, for firing on the police as soon as they arrived and barricading himself in closed quarters.... yep, I see the sole responsibility lies within the police!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #20 August 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe LAPD should have been good enough not to shoot a child. And how would you have handled the situation differently? 1. Waited him out...gotta sleep sometime. 2. Tranquilizer darts. 3. Other means - whatever. The point I see is that, typically, the cops are too eager to resort to gunplay - it doesn't matter if the guy shot first or last. 2.5-hr standoff with failed negotiations…short timeframe for negotiations, don’t you think? So...it seems the cops decided to kill him to prevent him from killing himself - very logical. And before you go off about "trying to prevent the girl from being killed"..BS! They certainly cared about that - “…while police fired more than 100 rounds throughout the ordeal… “ and "…after officers fired repeatedly into the room, Pena and the infant were found dead"…(but give credit to the other possibility of Pena having shot her himself.) Have you guys forgotten Waco or Ruby Ridge or countless other situations where the cops resorted to attacking with weapons? So Pena was and crook and an asshole - the end does NOT justify the means.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #21 August 4, 2005 QuoteHave you guys forgotten Waco or Ruby Ridge or countless other situations where the cops resorted to attacking with weapons? I don't think many people will EVER forget Waco or Ruby Ridge. I don't think that is a fair comparison, though. Both of those events had the signature of a murderous bitch named Janet Reno. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #22 August 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe guy used his own 19 month old daughter as a human shield? That's pretty messed up. I'd say that the bulk of the responsibility lies with the father. Would you blame the patient for being sick when the surgeon slices through the carotid artery? A disease is not an active, intelligent agent, like a human being. Hence, the "sick" can't share responsibility--it just is. A gunman using his own daughter as a human shield, on the other hand, is an independent, intelligent actor. He made choices and took actions that put that child into harms way, and hence he, unlike the disease, bears responsibility.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #23 August 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe guy used his own 19 month old daughter as a human shield? That's pretty messed up. I'd say that the bulk of the responsibility lies with the father. Would you blame the patient for being sick when the surgeon slices through the carotid artery? The responsibility lies with the professionals who fucked up in the performance of their duties in a difficult situation. jen That's a pretty harsh comparison. The surgeon is normally in a much more controlled environment. I'm sure those police officers were *desperately* trying to save that girl's life and trying to keep from getting killed in the process. Walt I'm certain they were and my heart goes out to them, also. They did, however, fuck up. Like the surgeon in his/her environment, they are responsible for a certain threshold level of competence and performance in theirs. Can we agree that killing the kid fell below even a minimal threshold of acceptable behavior? I'm not saying he/she/they are bad people or that we should heap disproportionate consequences upon them, but they are responsible for their actions and they are responsible for the results. jen----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #24 August 4, 2005 QuoteThe responsibility lies with the professionals who fucked up in the performance of their duties in a difficult situation. Pena was coked up, drunk and threatening his wife and older daughter. The LAPD did not fuck up, this man shot at cops. What were they supposed to do. Let Pena go off on a rampage and kill a few cops and innocent civilians just in order to protect his baby. Did you ever think that maybe if the cops did not act up Pena would've killed his entire family. People do stupid shit when they're coked up. This is a horrible tragedy and most if not all the blame is on Pena. Also a little info on how fucked up this family is. After this tragedy the older daughter, one who called the cops, had to stay with foster parents since her family was threatening her and blamed her for calling the cops and the babys death. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #25 August 4, 2005 QuoteCan we agree that killing the kid fell below even a minimal threshold of acceptable behavior? I'm not saying he/she/they are bad people or that we should heap disproportionate consequences upon them, but they are responsible for their actions and they are responsible for the results. jen Certainly we all agree that the outcome was tragic. I just don't have it in me to judge someone who's day-in-day-out job is to be ready to go into that kind of situation and put their own lives on the line, knowing that if things go bad, the microscope will be on them. This is not a "holier than thou" thing. I'm not criticizing anyone else for their comments. I can somewhat understand where the outrage is coming from. I just really feel for those guys and would rather let them police their own ranks in this situation. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
