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[AlexCrowley 0]

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People don't drink to get shitfaced drunk unless they are already in the early stages of alcohol dependency.

Maybe you forgot being a teenager, but I certainly wasnt doing it for the taste back then

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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People don't drink to get shitfaced drunk unless they are already in the early stages of alcohol dependency.

Maybe you forgot being a teenager, but I certainly wasnt doing it for the taste back then

It might surprise you to know that most teens weren't drinking to get shitfced drunk. So whats your point?

[AlexCrowley 0]

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People don't drink to get shitfaced drunk unless they are already in the early stages of alcohol dependency.

Maybe you forgot being a teenager, but I certainly wasnt doing it for the taste back then

It might surprise you to know that most teens weren't drinking to get shitfced drunk. So whats your point?

Only that people do drink to get drunk, especially teens. This is born out by binge drinking statistics in both the US and UK, where alcohol is prohibited until you reach 21 or 18 respectively. European countries that do not have a similar age restriction have a exponentially reduced occurence of teen alcohol binging.

So my point was refuting your statement about alcohol dependency by using a small subset of the population.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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People don't drink to get shitfaced drunk unless they are already in the early stages of alcohol dependency.

Maybe you forgot being a teenager, but I certainly wasnt doing it for the taste back then

It might surprise you to know that most teens weren't drinking to get shitfced drunk. So whats your point?

Well, i don't know where you live, but in my high school, town, etc, the teenagers drank to get drunk...mostly because we knew we didn't get to drink alcohol often. I remember going to Penn State one weekend Junior year of high school and it seemed like EVERYONE was drinking in excess. My guess is that the majority of those people do not have alcohol dependencies today.

The same goes for my university. We got drunk ALOT and most of us have stable jobs, good friends, and no alochol dependecies. Getting hammered alot does not mean you are going to turn into an alcoholic.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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People don't drink to get shitfaced drunk unless they are already in the early stages of alcohol dependency.

Maybe you forgot being a teenager, but I certainly wasnt doing it for the taste back then

It might surprise you to know that most teens weren't drinking to get shitfced drunk. So whats your point?

Well, i don't know where you live, but in my high school, town, etc, the teenagers drank to get drunk...mostly because we knew we didn't get to drink alcohol often. I remember going to Penn State one weekend Junior year of high school and it seemed like EVERYONE was drinking in excess. My guess is that the majority of those people do not have alcohol dependencies today.

The same goes for my university. We got drunk ALOT and most of us have stable jobs, good friends, and no alochol dependecies. Getting hammered alot does not mean you are going to turn into an alcoholic.

Exactly the point I have been trying to make. How many people back then, who were shooting heroin, became addicts as opposed to the number of people who were drinking?

[AlexCrowley 0]

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Exactly the point I have been trying to make. How many people back then, who were shooting heroin, became addicts as opposed to the number of people who were drinking?

Um, no, your point was 'People don't drink to get shitfaced drunk unless they are already in the early stages of alcohol dependency.' which is obviously false.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Exactly the point I have been trying to make. How many people back then, who were shooting heroin, became addicts as opposed to the number of people who were drinking?

Um, no, your point was 'People don't drink to get shitfaced drunk unless they are already in the early stages of alcohol dependency.' which is obviously false.

Read the whole thread. I never said someone who drinks to get drunk will become an addict. I'm no expert, but I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of Friends of Bill W. who will agree with me.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Exactly the point I have been trying to make. How many people back then, who were shooting heroin, became addicts as opposed to the number of people who were drinking?

Um, no, your point was 'People don't drink to get shitfaced drunk unless they are already in the early stages of alcohol dependency.' which is obviously false.

This is true. I was refuting that statement. You made that statement and followed that it may be hard to hear in our skydiving community. The idea ws not implied; it was written clearly. You SAID that those who drink to get shitfaced are in early stages of alcohol dependency and it will get worse without help. I say, you are not correct.

However, to go with your more recent statement. The number of people I know who have tried heroin is less (but not non-existent) than those who have gotten drunk. I know QUITE a few alcoholics (functional and not), but I know not a single heroin addict (out of the people I know who have done it).

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Generally, most people can drink moderately their whole lives and never have a problem with dependency or addition. Conversely, most people who start using heroin eventually end up addicted.

Any higher likelihood of dependency with herion versus alcohol is likely due to the fact that there is nearly zero education in the US for using narcotics recreationally in a responsible manner. Again, that is a result of the War on Drugs, and not the drugs themslves.

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the question is, do you think someone whose judgement is impaired is capable of making the decision as to whether what they are doing is only affecting them and not hurting anyone else? Makes no difference whether their judgement is impaired by alcohol, heroin or any other substance. I'm not talking about when they are high either, I'm talking about when that little voice inside their head is telling them they need their poison.

Once again, nearly all the detrimental effects you refer to are due to the War on Drugs, and not the drugs. If there is no need to steal to get a fix, whether that fix be caffeine, nicotine, herion, cocaine, methamphetamine, then addicts are able to lead responsible, productive lives.

Look at all the people you know that cannot get through the day without their caffeine or cigarettes. Do you think they would all be able to continue being productive in life if coffee and cigarettes were suddenly illegal because they can be harmful to users?

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When I was in school, I studied addiction. Go to a few AA or NA meetings and you will probably see what I mean. hen I was in school, I studied addiction. Go to a few AA or NA meetings and you will probably see what I mean.

I understand your point, I just disagree with your placement of blame. We have the substance abuse problems that we have due primarily to the fact that we have already tried to legislate a "responsible" lifestyle.

How would you feel if gear delers stopped selling any canopies smaller than 250 square feet, just because we are "sure" that they are safer, and it allows skydivers with families to reduce their risk?

Of course it wouldn't work; we'd go back to having low-pull contests on every load.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Jellinek Phases: The Progressive Symptoms or Alcoholism.



The behavioral characteristics of the alcoholic are progressive as is the person's tolerance to alcohol and as is the course of the disease itself. An inventory of some of these characteristics follows. They are not necessarily in precise chronological order and some may never be experienced by an individual alcoholic. But most of them are experienced and, in total are mileposts along the way.

PRE-ADDICTION:
The road to alcoholism begins when the drinking is no longer social but becomes a means of psychological escape from tensions, problems and inhibitions. Although the eventual problem drinker is still in reasonable control, their habits begin to fail into a definite pattern:

Gross Drinking Behavior: They begin to drink more heavily and more often than their friends. "Getting wasted" becomes a habit. When drunk, they may develop a "big shot" complex, recklessly spending money, boasting of real and imagined accomplishments, etc.
Blackouts: A "blackout," temporary loss of memory, is not to be confused with "passing out," or loss of consciousness. The drinker suffering from a blackout cannot remember things they said, things they did, places they visited while carousing the night before - or for longer periods. Even a social drinker can have a blackout. With prospective alcoholics, the blackouts are more frequent and develop into a pattern.
Gulping and Sneaking Drinks: Anxious to maintain a euphoric level, they begin to pass off drinks at parties and instead slyly gulp down extra ones when they think nobody is looking. They may also "fortify" themselves before going to a party to insure their euphoria. They feel guilty about this behavior and skittishly avoid talking about drinks or drinking.
Chronic Hangovers: As they grow more and more reliant on alcohol as a shock absorber to daily living, "morning after" hangovers become more frequent and increasingly painful.

http://www.nh-dwi.com/caip-222.htm

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Exactly the point I have been trying to make. How many people back then, who were shooting heroin, became addicts as opposed to the number of people who were drinking?

If you knew more heroin users, you would likely know more recovering addicts.

I know recovering addicts from many drugs, some legal, others not.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Jellinek Phases: The Progressive Symptoms or Alcoholism.



The behavioral characteristics of the alcoholic are progressive as is the person's tolerance to alcohol and as is the course of the disease itself. An inventory of some of these characteristics follows. They are not necessarily in precise chronological order and some may never be experienced by an individual alcoholic. But most of them are experienced and, in total are mileposts along the way.

PRE-ADDICTION:
The road to alcoholism begins when the drinking is no longer social but becomes a means of psychological escape from tensions, problems and inhibitions. Although the eventual problem drinker is still in reasonable control, their habits begin to fail into a definite pattern:

Gross Drinking Behavior: They begin to drink more heavily and more often than their friends. "Getting wasted" becomes a habit. When drunk, they may develop a "big shot" complex, recklessly spending money, boasting of real and imagined accomplishments, etc.
Blackouts: A "blackout," temporary loss of memory, is not to be confused with "passing out," or loss of consciousness. The drinker suffering from a blackout cannot remember things they said, things they did, places they visited while carousing the night before - or for longer periods. Even a social drinker can have a blackout. With prospective alcoholics, the blackouts are more frequent and develop into a pattern.
Gulping and Sneaking Drinks: Anxious to maintain a euphoric level, they begin to pass off drinks at parties and instead slyly gulp down extra ones when they think nobody is looking. They may also "fortify" themselves before going to a party to insure their euphoria. They feel guilty about this behavior and skittishly avoid talking about drinks or drinking.
Chronic Hangovers: As they grow more and more reliant on alcohol as a shock absorber to daily living, "morning after" hangovers become more frequent and increasingly painful.

http://www.nh-dwi.com/caip-222.htm

That is a hell of a lot more than simply drinking to get drunk.

Bottom line getting hammered !== early stage alcohol dependency, but in SOME cases, it can be a sign.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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That is a hell of a lot more than simply drinking to get drunk.

Bottom line getting hammered !== early stage alcohol dependency, but in SOME cases, it can be a sign.

Then explain to me why someone needs to drink to get drunk, "shitfaced" is the word I believe you used, and others drink and never get drunk.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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That is a hell of a lot more than simply drinking to get drunk.

Bottom line getting hammered !== early stage alcohol dependency, but in SOME cases, it can be a sign.

Then explain to me why someone needs to drink to get drunk, "shitfaced" is the word I believe you used, and others drink and never get drunk.

Actually, it was tso-d chris who used it first...then you, thne I used it to quote you.

Why do people drink to get drunk? I can think of many reasons other than because of dependency. Top reason: They like it. They enjoy the feeling. They consider it their way to let loose.

Is it a need? In some, yes. in most, I believe no. But alcohol is there and they use it, sometimes excessively. As people will ocassionally do with anything.

Asking why someone gets drunk while others abstain is like asking why someone rides a bike while another drives a car. It is personal preference. Not always, but most of the time.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Alcoholism-What Does it Look Like?
How do you know whether someone has an alcohol problem, is alcoholic, or is just "a heavy drinker?" When should you be concerned about them, or yourself, if you are the drinker in question? People have their own measures--he doesn't drink every day, just on weekends; he only drinks beer, never the hard stuff; he can quit anytime he wants to, he just doesn't want to.
The difficulty in determining whether someone has a problem is inherent in the nature of the illness, which is a chronic, progressive disease. Because it is progressive, people in early stages may not manifest dramatic symptoms of insobriety that might warrant attention or concern. Symptoms include physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, and social aspects. Denial is the number one symptom and the alcoholic is often the last one to believe he or she has a problem.
The road to alcoholism begins when drinking is no longer social but becomes a means of psychological escape from tensions, problems, and inhibitions. In the early stage, a person comes to depend on the mood altering qualities of alcohol. A gradual increase in tolerance develops so that it takes increasing amounts of alcohol to produce the same mood altering effects. The person may start gulping a few drinks before attending a party, need two strong drinks before dinner, or increase social drinking to 3 to 5 drinks a day. Many people might not recognize that this person is in the early stages of a progressive illness, particularly the person who is drinking.

http://www.umass.edu/fsap/articles/alcohol.html

Think what you want. The experts disagree with you. As I said,not a popular subject to discuss with skydivers, so I'm done.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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The road to alcoholism begins when drinking is no longer social but becomes a means of psychological escape from tensions, problems, and inhibitions. In the early stage, a person comes to depend on the mood altering qualities of alcohol.

Dependence is different than experience. You can experience being drunk with having a dependence upon it.

The experts do not disagree with me. Getting drunk because you like the feeling sometimes is fine. Doing it because it is the ONLY way to feel good is bad. Simple as that. If you NEED alcohol to have fun or get rid of stress, you have a problem. But getting really drunk does not automatically mean you NEED it.

And what exactly IS a popular discussion for skydivers? God? Iraq? Bush? Left wing media? This SC. No discussion is a happy and popular one.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[AlexCrowley 0]

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Then explain to me why someone needs to drink to get drunk, "shitfaced" is the word I believe you used, and others drink and never get drunk.

GM you're shifting your original statement here. It's ok to say 'ok, I was generalizing, but my point is blahblahblah'. Instead we're going down this rather silly road about what getting drunk off your ass is all about.

Take a frat house full of college kids, add beer. Then we'll do a 'who's drunk survey' Hell, take my entire adolesence and we'll play the drunk survey and the answer is: EVERYONE (except the designated driver, the girl who's tired of getting hit on and the kid tripping on acid in the corner). I base this from 3 years working in a nightclub that drew 2000 kids every thursday for the 1UK beer.

The original statement was nothing about 'having to get shitfaced' it was about getting shitfaced

Yes binge drinking is an issue, but the same can be said of experimentation with drugs (illegal and legal), a lot do it, some become addicted and there are a few casualties.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.