Call to Action for Muslims

[waltappel 1]

I hereby issue the following fatwah:

Slap yourself. Right now. Really hard.

Now keep on slapping yourself until you have knocked enough sense into yourself to realize that terrorism hurts us all.

That is all.

Walt

p.s. This fatwah also applies to all non-Muslims too.

[wmw999 2,584]

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p.s. This fatwah also applies to all non-Muslims too.

Then why make it a p.s.?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,107]

>p.s. This fatwah also applies to all non-Muslims too.

Unless the terrorists in question are fighting our enemies. In which case they are brave freedom fighters willing to give their life for freedom.

[waltappel 1]

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p.s. This fatwah also applies to all non-Muslims too.

Then why make it a p.s.?

Wendy W.

How dare you question me on my fatwah!!! You raise a good point, though. I shall reissue the revised version when the spirit moves me.

Walt

[waltappel 1]

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>p.s. This fatwah also applies to all non-Muslims too.

Unless the terrorists in question are fighting our enemies. In which case they are brave freedom fighters willing to give their life for freedom.

Nope. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend, we just happen to have a common dislike.

Terrorism hurts us all.

Edited to add:

I was one of the many who foolishly bought into that "freedom fighter" crap when the Soviets were in Afghanistan. I thought it was GREAT that we were giving them weapons, including Stinger missiles.

Those weapons have been, and are currently being, used against Americans. That helicopter that was shot down a few weeks ago in Afghanistan. Was it shot by one of OUR missiles that we so gleefully gave to the "freedom fighters" back in the late '80's? I don't know, but the thought pretty much sickens me.

Walt

[Tonto 1]

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Terrorism hurts us all.

Well, that's not strictly true. Since the average human has a reflex and response time of 0.2 seconds, I don't think it hurts the suicide bomber at all.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[billvon 3,107]

>Terrorism hurts us all.

I agree. I think too many people forget that when terrorism happens to accomplish our goals; it's still wrong.

[waltappel 1]

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Terrorism hurts us all.

Well, that's not strictly true. Since the average human has a reflex and response time of 0.2 seconds, I don't think it hurts the suicide bomber at all.

t

Hence the need for the repeated self slapping. But you do raise an excellent and technically sound point.

Walt

[shropshire 0]

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Terrorism hurts us all.

Even state sponspored .... not that we would ever get involved in that.....

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[waltappel 1]

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>Terrorism hurts us all.

I agree. I think too many people forget that when terrorism happens to accomplish our goals; it's still wrong.

Back in the Cold War era, it was so much easier to rationalize supporting any kind of psycho that happened to hate those who the US government deemed our enemy. Seemed kinda' cool that we could keep our hands "clean" by letting someone else do the dirty work. It made us feel that we were doing something "positive" while keeping the risk of direct confrontation with the Soviet Union relatively low.

It is biting us in the butt in a very nasty way these days.

Live and (hopefully) learn.

Walt

[wmw999 2,584]

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Seemed kinda' cool that we could keep our hands "clean" by letting someone else do the dirty work.

We are

More information on the source (for those who figure that if it's on "60 Minutes" it must be false) here and here.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[waltappel 1]

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Seemed kinda' cool that we could keep our hands "clean" by letting someone else do the dirty work.

We are

More information on the source (for those who figure that if it's on "60 Minutes" it must be false) here and here.

Wendy W.

I read your post and then had to run an errand, during which I was thinking about your remarks most of the time.

I remember rooting for the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan way back when. Obviously situations can change and so can my opinions.

While I currently have no problem with torturing terrorists to get information, looking at it in terms of how it might affect our future as a country makes me wonder if I might see things differently in the future. It could happen.

I was wondering how I would feel if a foreign government agents covertly snatched a US citizen they considered a suspect in terrorist acts against their country, smuggled him out of the US, then tortured him to get information.

All I can really think of is that if that happens, then the people doing it had damn well better be right in their suspicions. They need to have absolute certainty.

I think the US bears the same responsibility. If the US were to engage in kidnapping and torture of terrorist suspects, then they had damn well better be right in their suspicions. Forget about having other countries do the dirty work. Having someone else do the dirty deed does not, IMO, leave our hands all that clean.

The other thought that occurs to me is that anyone trusted with that type of power needs to be very moral and very objective and absolutely worthy of that type of trust. I have a hard time believing that our government could meet that standard.

Walt

[wmw999 2,584]

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While I currently have no problem with torturing terrorists to get information

I'm working (very slowly) on reading "A Ditadura Escancarada," a book about the torture in Brazil during the early 70's, when torture of (what they called) terrorists was an accepted practice in military circles.

It appears to be well-researched -- the author had quite a bit of access to subjects who both tortured and who were tortured. Lots of cites, lots of consistency.

The vast majority said that the information you get from torture is generally valueless, because after awhile anyone will say anything to make the pain stop. But the torture doesn't stop, because it becomes a power, right, and might thing.

And yes, it seems to start with an acceptance by the powers-that-be that it's OK to get information by questionable means; quantity becomes more important than quality. At least according to the people who were interviewed who participated in torturing suspects.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[waltappel 1]

I always like your posts, even if they often make my "leftie" alert sound. They are quite often thought-provoking.

Walt

[Gawain 0]

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While I currently have no problem with torturing terrorists to get information, looking at it in terms of how it might affect our future as a country makes me wonder if I might see things differently in the future. It could happen.

I was wondering how I would feel if a foreign government agents covertly snatched a US citizen they considered a suspect in terrorist acts against their country, smuggled him out of the US, then tortured him to get information.

There are several black stars on the wall of CIA headquarters. These stars represent the deaths of field operatives. Sure bet that many were indeed tortured, though we will never know all the stories.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[popsjumper 2]

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....I was one of the many who foolishly bought into that "freedom fighter" crap when the Soviets were in Afghanistan.

Walt

As it turned out, they weren't "freedom fighters" at all...they were fighting for control, not freedom.
Still going at it for control, not freedom.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tigra 0]

I wasn't aware that all followers of the Muslim faith were terrorists.

[justinb138 0]

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I wasn't aware that all followers of the Muslim faith were terrorists.

I wasn't aware that anyone said they were.

[Gawain 0]

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I wasn't aware that all followers of the Muslim faith were terrorists.

They certainly aren't. But I will point openly at all followers, citing that they do not do enough to speak out against, and take action against those that destroy the image of their religion. The religion is not solely based on "peace", no, it is, indeed, just as much a faith based on submission as well.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[waltappel 1]

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While I currently have no problem with torturing terrorists to get information, looking at it in terms of how it might affect our future as a country makes me wonder if I might see things differently in the future. It could happen.

I was wondering how I would feel if a foreign government agents covertly snatched a US citizen they considered a suspect in terrorist acts against their country, smuggled him out of the US, then tortured him to get information.

There are several black stars on the wall of CIA headquarters. These stars represent the deaths of field operatives. Sure bet that many were indeed tortured, though we will never know all the stories.

I remember very well the image of William Buckley, the Beirut, Lebanon CIA station chief after he was beaten and otherwise tortured for several days and then murdered.

Walt

[waltappel 1]

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I wasn't aware that all followers of the Muslim faith were terrorists.

They aren't, but how many are willing to tolerate and conceal those who are?

Walt

[rushmc 23]

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I always like your posts, even if they often make my "leftie" alert sound. They are quite often thought-provoking.

Walt

A "leftie" alert I gotta get me one of those

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[crozby 0]

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***Seemed kinda' cool that we could keep our hands "clean" by letting someone else do the dirty work.

We are

It's kind of ironic considering that one of the post-invasion reasons for regime changing Saddam given by Bush & Bliar was his torture of people he considered enemies of the state.

[waltappel 1]

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***Seemed kinda' cool that we could keep our hands "clean" by letting someone else do the dirty work.

We are

It's kind of ironic considering that one of the post-invasion reasons for regime changing Saddam given by Bush & Bliar was his torture of people he considered enemies of the state.

It bothers the hell out of me that Bush (IMO) has never given a really honest reason of why the US is in Iraq. Does anyone really doubt that we are there because of OIL?

Walt

[Gawain 0]

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***Seemed kinda' cool that we could keep our hands "clean" by letting someone else do the dirty work.

We are

It's kind of ironic considering that one of the post-invasion reasons for regime changing Saddam given by Bush & Bliar was his torture of people he considered enemies of the state.

It bothers the hell out of me that Bush (IMO) has never given a really honest reason of why the US is in Iraq. Does anyone really doubt that we are there because of OIL?

Walt

If OIL were the SOLE reason, then we would've left Saddam in power and sponsored a lift of the sanctions and the Oil-for-food program.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!