55,000 adult British Muslims think more terrorist attacks are justified?

[Newbie 0]

After the attacks in London, i was curious to know if we would see polls from British Muslims about what they thought, whether it was justifiable etc etc, and this appears to be the first one of it's kind since the attack. I'm not sure if this is accurate or correct, but it is what i have interpreted from this ICM Poll:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1536222,00.html

The poll was actually examining the numbers of British Muslims who were considering leaving the UK, but it was other aspects of the poll that shocked me more. Out of 1005 British Muslims sampled (all adults, aged over 18 years of age) "5% said that more attacks would be justified" - and an undisclosed number (potentially running into the thousands, states the article) saying they supported the July 7th attacks in the first instance. With 1.1 million British Muslims aged over 18 residing in the UK, does that mean that you can assume about 5% of the total adult British Muslim population (i.e. 55,000 people) think more attacks are justifiable?

If this is true, it's pretty scary to me, as it's a much larger number than i would have thought to be the case. While i certainly consider myself to not be one to be Islamaphobic, or to issue sweeping generalisations such as "Islam is a violent religion" etc etc and all that other junk you usually hear right wingers espousing, and i honestly feel that overwhelming majority of British Muslims abhor what has happened - i would be lieing if i thought these figures of what i have interpreted (namely, 55,000 support further attacks) as being what i had actually thought them to be - i guess maybe i felt a few hundred hardcore extremeists might say they supported the attacks and would feel more of the same was justified, but 55,000?

Other stats from this survey show 9 in 10 British Muslims feel violence has "no place in a political struggle" - so does this mean 1 in 10 - or 110,000 think it does have a place??

Please correct me if i am reading this figures wrong. I'm certainly no great statistician and I know that there is only so much you can assume from polling 1005 people when you are dealing with a total of 1.1 million, but i do think polls can give a fairly good indication of larger demographics which is why i'm perturbed by this.

Can anyone who knows polls/stats please explain just how much of a grain of salt you have to take when looking at things like this to help put this into perspective?

Thanks

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[rhino 0]

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"5% said that more attacks would be justified" - and an undisclosed number (potentially running into the thousands, states the article) saying they supported the July 7th attacks in the first instance.

Makes you wonder if they knew ahead of time. I wonder how many regular Muslim train and bus commuters weren't so regular that day?

[kevinwhelan 0]

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"5% said that more attacks would be justified"

This seems very high to me.
I would like to see the exact question they were asked.
sometimes reporters can put their own spin on things or take them completly out of context

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[Ron 10]

Well it only takes a few to be a pain in the ass.

The problem is that while only 5% think more attacks are justified...The remaining 95% don't turn them in.

THATS the problem.

There is always gonna be a wacko that wants to be an ass. The problem is the 95% that protect them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[CornishChris 5]

As ever it boils down to lies, damn lies & statistics.

I find these ones hard to believe but even if the percentage was 0.01% it would be enough to fuck people lives up. Same as if 0.0001% of christians thought the same.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[mr2mk1g 10]

First thing you want to do is find out the exact questions that were asked in the poll. Then you can see past any spin the paper might be putting on the figures and make your own mind up as to their voracity.

Sadly the pollsters webpage doesn't show them having conducted the poll the Guardian is quoting (I presume it simply isn't up on line yet).

You could wait a week and take a look here: http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/latest-polls.asp - they seem to be pretty good about posting their exact questions and methodology. Or you could e-mail/call them direct about it if you're that interested. http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/company/contact-us.asp

Either way, the exact questions and a proper look at their methodology would be the first step I'd take.

It is true though that the results on face value are rather concerning. Certainly worth watching.

[storm1977 0]

If the poll was done scientifically, then yes, I think 1005 people would be a large enough sample to make the assumption that it is around 5% across the board.

I am not really sure why this surprizes you.

An article I posted earlier makes a few great points that
seem to hit home.
THere has been terrorism and suicide bombers in Isreal for years. We in the US, though allied with Isreal, really did nothing to help them stop this. In fact, we negotiated with Arafat and other terrorist to reach some sort of peace deal. But the terrorist kept attacking. Europe and the US told Ireal they needed to stop attacking the palastinians, and that they couldn't build the wall.
Meanwhile the attacks kept coming.
But here in the US we felt all cozy in our beds knowing it was happening there and not here.
Then there was the first WTC attack in 93, then the USS cole attack, then embassy bombings then 9/11, and we realized it wasn't just Isreal with the problem.

Meanwhile, Europe, who has been trying their best to align themselves with anything Non-american felt they were safe. But what happened....
First the Madrid bombing... So in a weak cowardly way Spain pulled out of Iraq because they thought that was the cause. Then what? More plots were hatched against Spain... So what was the reason now?
Then the London Bombing....

It will go on and on until people realize who the problem is.

This war on terror will end with the Muslims loosing.
All muslims even innocent ones if they do not wake up and see they have a vested interest in helping to cut this shit out in their community.

The Muslims in Europe and the US need to be actively reporting those among them who see to be on the radical outskirts of their society.

The Dutch are already taking action on deporting citicens who are muslim but involved with radical Mosques.

Pretty soon it will be all muslims if they don't start calling out there own. THere is going to be a very large shift in the EUropean view pretty soon if this shit doesn't stop.

The enemy has infitrated Europe because they allowed him to. They let him preach hatred in the streets and pass out fliers about Death to America. Europeans felt it wasn't there problem, but now, for their own selfish causes, some of them are turning on the countries which gave them everything they have.

When Bin Laden Declared war on the west it was because of:
Isreal,
then because of troops in Saudi (Which were protecting them BTW)
Then because of Afganistan
Then because Iraq.

People need to realize it is none of those things.... It is a failed civilization afraid of democracy, afraid of change. A society that sees the west as the cause of their own mess. Until they realize they are the problem, there is no solution, except to destroy them. Because they are pretty content with trying to destroy us.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Frenchy68 0]

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Meanwhile, Europe, who has been trying their best to align themselves with anything Non-american felt they were safe. But what happened....
First the Madrid bombing... So in a weak cowardly way Spain pulled out of Iraq because they thought that was the cause. Then what? More plots were hatched against Spain... So what was the reason now?
Then the London Bombing....

That's if you start the history of domestic terrorism a couple of years ago. If you go back a little further into time, you'll find out that the US thought it was safe, while Europe was experiencing terrorism.
It is also ironic how some people (not necessarily directed at you, Storm) were jumping and screaming when some European countries were taking measures (being rational or not) against religious extremism, are now the ones asking for tougher measures against extremist muslims and asking for more racial profiling. At the end, we all spin events according to our own petty social, moral, and political believes, regardless of greater principles...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[storm1977 0]

I agree with a lot of what you say.

I am an american, and proud of it. Proud of the Laws of my country and the liberties the Constitution alots me. As I am sure you are of France's. However, I am willing to allow the rules to be bent and some of my liberties pushed to the side in the name of Defense of the country.

I really do feel there is going to be a big shift in European thinking. It has already started in the US, but in my opinion, the US's problem isn't nearly as large as Europes when it comes to the muslim community.

It's sad truthfully..... I have a feeling that this is going to get worse before the people finally get fed up and take strong action. I for one would support it.

Has there ever been another group of people in History that has used the tactic of blowing themselves and innocent people up to get what they want?
(Not the Kamakazi(sp?) either... they attacked military targets)
What does it say about these people?

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Darius11 12]

This war on terror will end with the Muslims loosing.

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Let me make one thing clear. If the terrorist get killed and exterminated today I as a Muslim will not feel as I have lost. It will be a great day for Muslims every where.
Not all Muslims are terrorist.

Terrorism is murder. I wonder what % of 1000 White Americans, or Europeans would be willing to commit murder for there religion, Nintendo, Money, Sex, Drugs, ect ect (what ever is more important to them) keeping in mind that most polls I have seen have about a 3% margin of error.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

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[Darius11 12]

Just one more point.

You’re asking why don’t the Muslims turn in the terrorist. Just so you know we don’t get a yellow book with OBL home address. Why don’t you turn in all the White criminals in NY? Why are you helping them by not turning them in? Lets see most Serial killers are white males why would all you white people not turn in the serial killers.



Just trying to make a point.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Newbie 0]

Thanks for those links...the poll is now up in more detail...


http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2005/Guardian%20-%20muslims%20july05/Guardian%20Muslims%20jul05.asp

Not sure where the Guardian got the figure of 1005 interviewees from - as far as i can make out, only 545 people were interviewed - 500 selected from previous interviews and 45 who had had their numbers passed on from that initial 500.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Just one more point.

You’re asking why don’t the Muslims turn in the terrorist. Just so you know we don’t get a yellow book with OBL home address. Why don’t you turn in all the White criminals in NY? Why are you helping them by not turning them in? Lets see most Serial killers are white males why would all you white people not turn in the serial killers.



Just trying to make a point.

Good point Darius. None of the parents of the teens who carried out the Columbine Massacres thought there was anything wrong with their kids. Look at the people who knew Ted Bundy, none of them had any idea what kind of a Sociopath he was. I doubt any of the Muslims involved in the London bombings told anybody what they were going to do. If I recall one of them was married and had a 9 month old child. Who could have thought he would be a bomber?
I think one of the frustrations non-Muslims have is that there is a feeling that within your culture and religion, there is more knowledge about which Mosques have radical clerics who are preaching hate. We (non-Muslims)don't find out about it until there has been an incident. While I agree most Muslims don't know who is going to be a bomber, there are some who do know more than they admit. I think it's similar to the shadow support the IRA had from the Irish-American Community.

[Darius11 12]

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Just one more point.

You’re asking why don’t the Muslims turn in the terrorist. Just so you know we don’t get a yellow book with OBL home address. Why don’t you turn in all the White criminals in NY? Why are you helping them by not turning them in? Lets see most Serial killers are white males why would all you white people not turn in the serial killers.



Just trying to make a point.

Good point Darius. None of the parents of the teens who carried out the Columbine Massacres thought there was anything wrong with their kids. Look at the people who knew Ted Bundy, none of them had any idea what kind of a Sociopath he was. I doubt any of the Muslims involved in the London bombings told anybody what they were going to do. If I recall one of them was married and had a 9 month old child. Who could have thought he would be a bomber?
I think one of the frustrations non-Muslims have is that there is a feeling that within your culture and religion, there is more knowledge about which Mosques have radical clerics who are preaching hate. We (non-Muslims)don't find out about it until there has been an incident. While I agree most Muslims don't know who is going to be a bomber, there are some who do know more than they admit. I think it's similar to the shadow support the IRA had from the Irish-American Community.

I think the only people who knew about the bombing were the people that were involved (or at least I hope). Now extremist views might be a lot easier to spot. How do you know if someone is practicing their free speech or really going to do something? That’s where the problem is.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I think the only people who knew about the bombing were the people that were involved (or at least I hope). Now extremist views might be a lot easier to spot. How do you know if someone is practicing their free speech or really going to do something? That’s where the problem is.

Perhaps well respected Muslim elders need to become more involved. Usually there are signs that someone has strayed from the peaceful teachings of Islam that can only be discovered by dialog. Many times these are signs such as becoming isolated from friends, family and other sociological changes in a persons behavior. It is going to take a tremendous effort from other Muslims, but I think it starts with the admission there is a problem and an awareness of these changes. And a willingness to do something about the problem.

[storm1977 0]

Most Muslim communities in England are just that. Primarily close nit 90% + muslim.

In that community, if there are a few bad apples, the people there (For their own good) should be actively working with the police to try get rid of the ones giving them a bad name... THat is my point.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[storm1977 0]

I think Gravity said best what I am trying to say.

You me and the next guy all have suspitions or assumtions about people we know. If we have one amongst us who seems to be going to those "Radical
Clerics", who seems like an angry person... Maybe the
one around them need to look more closely at what is going on behind the scenes.

The same is true of the Columbine kids.... The difference is they were NOT from a close nit community or family. Their parents had no idea what was going on because they weren't involved and didn't care to look.

The fucking kids had pipe bombs under his bed at his parents house. I don't blame the parents as much as the kids. The kids carried out the attacks after all, however, the parents need to be more involved.

And that is all I am saying about the Muslim community. They seem to be a close nit group that is going to get a bad reputation soon if things don't change. That's a fact. If bombing continue in London, people are going to start looking at every Middle easterner with suspicion..natural reaction.

So, for the best interest of their community, it is important the Muslims start looking after their own.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Casurf1978 0]

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There is always gonna be a wacko that wants to be an ass. The problem is the 95% that protect them.

You're oversimplifying the situation. Look at all the London bombers. Three of the four were home grown and fit in perfectly with everyday life. The parents didnt even know about them or what they were upto. You cannot put any responsibility on the majority of the Muslim population of Leeds for not catching these kids.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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There is always gonna be a wacko that wants to be an ass. The problem is the 95% that protect them.

You're oversimplifying the situation. Look at all the London bombers. Three of the four were home grown and fit in perfectly with everyday life. The parents didnt even know about them or what they were upto. You cannot put any responsibility on the majority of the Muslim population of Leeds for not catching these kids.

So lets hear your solution.

[Darius11 12]

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Most Muslim communities in England are just that. Primarily close nit 90% + muslim.

In that community, if there are a few bad apples, the people there (For their own good) should be actively working with the police to try get rid of the ones giving them a bad name... THat is my point.

I think in any community the people should work to get rid of the few bad apples. They should put there BS pride aside and do what is right and just.
So i think we agree.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Ron 10]

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You're oversimplifying the situation. Look at all the London bombers. Three of the four were home grown and fit in perfectly with everyday life.

Someone knew. They kept quite. It is impossible to keep a secret from EVERYONE.

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The parents didnt even know about them or what they were upto

Parents knew they were extreme. Part of the problem is just like racists here in the states that the children get a good deal of it from their parents in most cases.

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You cannot put any responsibility on the majority of the Muslim population of Leeds for not catching these kids.

Sure I can, watch.

Muslims of Leeds (and Muslims world wide), you failed and it cost lives. Remove your head from the sand and police your own if you want the violence to stop.

Just like when a wacko Chritsian goes nuts, someone failed to stop them. Many times it is a family member.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

whispering {{{{{{{Now, let's see how many people jump all over Ron's ass but conveniently forget to note that he put in a Christian analogy on purpose to emphasize that this about responsibility in general and not just a Muslim thing.}}}}}}

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Darius11 12]

No. now if it was me posting something like that all hell would brake lose
and people would forget how to read

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Casurf1978 0]

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So lets hear your solution.

Thats the problem. You want a silver bullet, there is none. You want to boil down this type of terrorism to a simple equation x+y=z. Take out x and you got no z. It aint that simple. I'm almost 100% sure that most moderate Muslims would turn in a radical, just like most Christians would turn in someone that wanted to bomb any clinic. It's a whole different thing to say that 95% of xyz religion protects the extreme fringes of its population.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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So lets hear your solution.

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Thats the problem. You want a silver bullet, there is none. You want to boil down this type of terrorism to a simple equation x+y=z. Take out x and you got no z. It aint that simple.

No I don't. I just thought since you are so quick to criticize, you might at least have a few suggestions on how we start to solve this problem. Apparently, I was wrong.

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I'm almost 100% sure that most moderate Muslims would turn in a radical, just like most Christians would turn in someone that wanted to bomb any clinic. It's a whole different thing to say that 95% of xyz religion protects the extreme fringes of its population.

O.K. So you really haven't thought thru what might be the first steps in bringing together the differences. BTW I don't recall I quoted any statistics about 95% of any religion protecting the extreme fringes of it's population. Perhaps you just got confused?

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