IRA & terrorism

[Steel 0]

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you never see a Roman Catholic Cleric involved in Terrorism

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,863786,00.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/21/1040174437915.html?oneclick=true

You really need to read up on the problems in Northern Ireland (past AND present) if you seriously believe it's all to do with getting the Brits out of NI.

A huge amount of the violence there is Protestants killing Catholics because they are Catholics and Catholics killing Protestants because they are Protestants.

It is most certainly a Christian sectarian conflict.

You know that is an interesting opinion there and I do believe it warrants its own thread. I do acknowledge that you are probably more up on the specifics here since it hits closer to home. However, you are from one side which does take away your objectivity. I will ask a couple of questions of you. What are have the demands of the IRA been? Have you ever heard them say they want everybody to be Catholic by law. Or has the arguement always been that they want and Irish Republic that is not under the U.K. That there clearly says this is not about religion. Now some people are fools that need other forms of motivation and that may be why religion is often mentioned. But the bottom line is that this was not about religion.
Oh and another question. Do you know if any instances where Irish Catholics were torturing their own people or even Brits because they had a disenting opinion. Don't take this and spin the issue you know what torture is and therefore know to what I am referring. cutting off heads, hands, tongues, arms, legs or what have you. Basically telling the world, "We have no sense of morality, we have no limits we are like vicious animals so you had better give us what we are asking. That kind of barbarism has a different effect on people. Read back to see the tone of the posts, when the recent beheadings occurred. Then compare that to how the posts were affected by the bombings.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[mr2mk1g 10]

The IRA was not the only terrorist organization in NI.

Off the top of my head I can think of the IRA, PIRA, CIRA, TIRA, CAC, Cumann na mBan (ok, I had to look the spelling of that one up), Fianna na hEireann (yeah and that one), the INLA, IPLO, LVF, the Orange Volunteers, Red Hand Commando, Red Hand Defenders, Saor Eire, UDA, UFF, UVF, the RIRA and finally Sinn Fein who while we currently deal with them as a political party were until 1994 classified as a terrorist organization.

Those are just the one's I can think of, there were many more. I havent got anything like the time required to go look up the demands of each of them.

In addition to this, the violence in Ireland wasn’t limited to being carried out by people who aligned themselves with terrorist organizations per-say. Individual Protestants killed Catholics because they were Catholic and individual Catholics killed Protestants because they were Protestant.

As for torture, yes there was a hell of a lot of that going on. They were generally referred to as "punishment beatings" where people would be dragged outside their front door at midnight and mutilated in front of their family.

There were also a lot of knee-cappings. This (if you're not familiar with the procedure) involved taking a sawn off shot gun, placing it in direct contact with the subjects knee cap and pulling the trigger. The subject either lost their leg from the knee down or suffered permanently disabling injuries to the structure of the knee. Again, this was traditionally done at midnight on the subjects doorstep in front of their young family.

The best bit is, this wasn't even torture with a goal in mind such as the extraction of evidence – it was simply to show people just how fucking horrible they were illicit fear in the community and generally generate terror.

[Skyrad 0]

I don't mean to be insulting but your post is unbelivably uninformed Steel. NI has been a conflict of Catholic Vs Prod since the begining. As for your question about Catholics turning the screw on thier own, it is clear that you have never heard of the PIRA CAT teams. They use black and decker drills to kneecap people with amongst other things, torture fear and intimidation to keep the 'community' in line is thier job. Martin McGartland has written about his escape from them. Also have you not been watching the news over the last few months? Have you not seen the Catholic sisters who came to America to see Bush because the IRA killed thier brother?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Not to mention the Original IRA (Not talking about the actual original IRA but a fairly recent grouping) the IVF, the Official IRA (Which later developed into the INLA).

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[AlexCrowley 0]

"two wrongs dont make it right" fallacy.

I thought you'd written a 15 page essay on the IRA.

"Libyan security forces trained IRA personnel in the black art of torture, which included beating suspected informers repeatedly on the soles of their feet with batons, a technique used frequently to extract confessions in South Armagh."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,953578,00.html


"During Collins' interrogation, when he complained of verbal abuse, his interrogator viciously, but accurately reminded him of the difference between the interrogation methods of the RUC and those of the IRA. "Verbal abuse? Verbal abuse is about the only thing we can give you Provie fuckers. I wonder what you'd give me, you Provie bastard, if you were interrogating me in some barn in south Armagh? It wouldn't be verbal abuse you murdering cunt. No, you'd be taking lumps out of me with an iron bar before you put a hole in my fucking head". Collins is forced to admit that his interrogator is correct. "I thought about what the RUC man was saying. I knew he was right: the IRA would torture a captured member of the Special Branch if he did not speak. Then they would shoot him. A peculiar feeling overcame me. I felt sympathy for him: I did not want to envisage him in that awful situation. I was ashamed that he was right in what he said".


http://www.popmatters.com/columns/stephens/030501.shtml

I could go on if youd like. Hopefully for the vast majority reading this I dont need to point out the obvious regarding the second quote.
It takes a ballsy guy to call IRA members fools from several thousand miles away. If ever you'd like to go on an Irish pub crawl with me I'll pay for the tickets if we can print that quote on a tshirt and have you wear it while we order Guiness. Hell, I even have friends and family there so we can have them invite the neighbors over to discuss it
Once again, IRA torture is a well documented fact. Yes, the RUC was also guilty of torture, but thats the whole two wrongs thing again, and you specifically asked about the IRA.

Look into the Orange men.

[6 minutes]

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Skyrad 0]

As I suspect that you think that I'm biased so won't be objective I have found you a very few cases of IRA intimidation, torture and killing ALL of IRISH origin.

Fine Gael motion carried as McDowell denounces IRA


11:57:53 PM

The murder of Belfast man Robert McCartney was cowardly and nakedly evil, Justice Minister Michael McDowell said tonight.

Speaking during a parliamentary motion urging witnesses to come forward, he said Irish people were beginning to realise the threat posed by Sinn Féin and the IRA to Irish democracy.

He said that murder, torture and mutilation were the stock-in trade of the Provisional movement.

But he warned that people shouldn’t be fooled that the IRA is responsible for the thuggery and criminality and that Sinn Féin “is some separate democratic chrysalis seeking to break out of a paramilitary cocoon and to become an exclusively peaceful and democratic butterfly”.

Mr McCartney was knifed and beaten to death in a pub brawl by a drunken IRA mob which later forensically cleaned the crime scene and intimidated more than 70 witnesses.

Mr McDowell added: “The public is beginning to see the shape of the threat to democracy posed by a movement which uses crime on a massive scale to engage in politics. What is on view is but the tip of the iceberg.”

He said the IRA never intended to go away but mutate into a “lightly-armed gendarmerie who would in future act as the enforcers for the criminal and control strategy underpinning Sinn Féin’s drive for political power”.

Praising the McCartney sisters – Paula, Gemma, Catherine, Donna and Claire - and Robert’s partner Bridgeen, Mr McDowell said he was lost in admiration for their unique combination of bravery, dignity, determination and hunger for justice.

“These brave women refused to be trampled down by thuggery. They refused to let the light of justice be snuffed out by fear,” said McDowell.

Sinn Féin’s Dáil leader Caoimhghin Ó Caolain earlier insisted that every avenue must be kept open for witnesses to come forward.

But he said it was “very regrettable” that an amendment to the Fine Gael motion could not be accepted by the party.

“It shows what I can only call a cynical exploitation of this very serious issue for the narrowest of political motives,” he said.

Labour Deputy Leader Liz McManus said Mr McCartney was “cut open like a gutted fish, brutally kicked in the head and left to die”.

She said the McCartney sisters were ordinary women who had become extraordinary out of their tragedy.

“Tonight the democratic community in the Dáil Éireann stand here with them.”

She claimed that the IRA had killed more than the UDA, UFF, UVF, RUC and British Army – and included 400 Catholics among its victims.

Ceann Comhairle Rory O'Hanlon declared the motion carried after the final speaker.

Earlier, Mr O’Caolain repeated Gerry Adams’ remarks that those who had sullied the republican cause must be held account for their actions.

“Sinn Féin supports the thrust of the Fine Gael motion. We do not want to delete one word of it,” said the Cavan/Monaghan TD.

But he went on to say that calling on witnesses to contact the PSNI “restricts the means by which information may be given in order to help bring the killers to justice”.

[URL]http://www.irishexaminer.com/text/story.asp?j=5148341910&p=5y4834y9z5&n=5148342002[/URL]

[URL]http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/02/04/ihead.htm[/URL]

[URL]http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2003/0923/1023381939HM1GERRY.html[/URL]

[URL]http://breaking.tcm.ie/2003/09/17/story113869.html[URL]

[URL]http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2005/03/02/story191858.asp[/URL]

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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There were also a lot of knee-cappings. This (if you're not familiar with the procedure) involved taking a sawn off shot gun, placing it in direct contact with the subjects knee cap and pulling the trigger. The subject either lost their leg from the knee down or suffered permanently disabling injuries to the structure of the knee. Again, this was traditionally done at midnight on the subjects doorstep in front of their young family.

Until I went and spent time with my family in Ireland I wasn't aware this was going on. While talking with my cousins that own a large farm in Limerick, I made mention that at least the attacks don't happen around them. I had no idea just how wrong I was - the mutilations and torture that occurs on a small individual level caught me off guard. All of it based on what religion you happened to be born into . They told me about a catholic farmer that had his knees drilled out ONLY because he married a protestant.

I have a large family that still live up and down the entire west coast of Ireland (from Sligo to Kerry)....and all of them are tired of it. They don't care anymore if the 6 counties are returned to the South - they just want to go on with their lives. However, idealists that have no connection or clue to what the people of their country really want continue to wage their little war. The northern and southern terrorists are not a true representation of their people...and they are fighting a battle that many don't care about anymore.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[ViperPilot 0]

The IRA and the lot were/are just as big of shitbags as these Islamic terrorists. I see no difference. Who cares if the terrorist is Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jew, Christian, etc. If you're a terrorist, you deserve to get the shit kicked out of you. The IRA has done some terrible things, they deserve punishment just as much as these train bombers and Zarqawi (sp?).

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we are like vicious animals

I don't think terrorists should be called animals. Why? Because even animals wouldn't do the things to eachother that terrorists do to innocent people every day. Terrorists are below animals in my opinion.

[ViperPilot 0]

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idealists that have no connection or clue to what the people of their country really want continue to wage their little war

This is the basis of terrorism. In Britain, Ireland, Iraq, Iran, and beyond, there are numerous fanatics who think they know what's best for their country, their "people," and the rest of the world. These people exist and have existed well before Blair, Bush, the Iraq War, the first Gulf War, etc. The only way to crush terrorism is to crush this type of thought, and to do that is incredibly hard.

[wmw999 2,589]

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This is the basis of terrorism. In Britain, Ireland, Iraq, Iran, and beyond, there are numerous fanatics who think they know what's best for their country, their "people," and the rest of the world. These people exist and have existed well before Blair, Bush, the Iraq War, the first Gulf War, etc. The only way to crush terrorism is to crush this type of thought, and to do that is incredibly hard.

My only real disagreement is with the concept of crushing thought -- as soon as the government as an entity crushes it, it becomes more valid to the thinkers. It has to be society as a whole crushing it, either because no one will speak to them, or because there's enough freedom of thought and enough available prosperity that only the truly criminal, instead of just the angry, are tempted.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Steel 0]

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The IRA and the lot were/are just as big of shitbags as these Islamic terrorists. I see no difference. Who cares if the terrorist is Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jew, Christian, etc. If you're a terrorist, you deserve to get the shit kicked out of you. The IRA has done some terrible things, they deserve punishment just as much as these train bombers and Zarqawi (sp?).

I am not defending the IRA Sinn Fein or any of these groups. I was simply stating from my knowledge about them, they were not as barbaric and the Muslim extremists. I also stated that I don't believe their issue is rooted in religion.
In anycase my studies about this conflict were specific to the time period of Michael Collins and the Easter Monday uprising of 1916. I do not recall reading about these torture methods in the books I read but I do not deny that it may be the case.
Still if indeed it is the case then they are not really Catholic. Real Catholics following the hieracy that leads to the Pope. There is no way that the Pope would be ok with the acts that were described on this thread. That I am sure about.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[AlexCrowley 0]

Your original post:

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Do you know if any instances where Irish Catholics were torturing their own people or even Brits because they had a disenting opinion. Don't take this and spin the issue you know what torture is and therefore know to what I am referring. cutting off heads, hands, tongues, arms, legs or what have you. Basically telling the world, "We have no sense of morality, we have no limits we are like vicious animals so you had better give us what we are asking. That kind of barbarism has a different effect on people. Read back to see the tone of the posts, when the recent beheadings occurred. Then compare that to how the posts were affected by the bombings.

No one span anything, no biased remarks insulting psycho IRA members, they replied with facts, experiences and articles which are directly relevent to your question.

Now, your original statement above said 'any instances where Irish Catholics were torturing their own people or even Brits'.

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Still if indeed it is the case then they are not really Catholic. Real Catholics following the hieracy that leads to the Pope. There is no way that the Pope would be ok with the acts that were described on this thread. That I am sure about.

And again, you ignore all posted facts, claim ignorance after claiming earlier you knew a lot about the IRA after writing a 15 page essay at college using 5 (count 'em, 5!) sources. We talked about Ad ignorantum previously, just because you said something you didnt know anything about doesnt mean that it might not exist when confronted with evidence.

As you can see, you are now weaseling out of your intial statement and trying to make it about the official Roman Catholic Church supporting Irish terrorism.

You then excommunicate all the IRA members because they're not 'real' catholics, maybe you can point that out to them when we're on our pub crawl.

Your opinion on the catholic church structure and the role of the Pope simplifies the reality and illustrates your lack of knowledge of the subject.

1. It's not as strict or simple as you're painting it, Pope is God's mouthpiece, he is not the CEO of a company of robots.

2. I haven't mentioned this one before because I thought someone else might mention it. But not all Catholics are Roman Catholics, its like Shia Muslims vs other Muslims. Other forms of Catholicism: Maronite, Ukrainian, Byzantine, Syro-Malabar, Coptic to name a few.

3. Not all catholic sects follow the Pope: Oriental Orthodox churches do not follow the Roman Catholic pope.

Now, I believe you had mentioned that a centralized Catholic church was different than a centralized Islamic church in our previous discussion. In fact, both Islam and Catholicism are very similar, Islam is considered to be split into 3 major and 2 minor sects, whereas Catholicism is can also be split into 3, with many minor sects (mostly considered part of Eastern Catholicism).

Now, I find it interesting that you would state that they can't be real catholics if they do that. I'm sure that you can now understand why a large number of Muslims would say that who follow their own version of Islam.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Skyrad 0]

You've swallowed the le that the republicans like to feed America, that the terrorists of todays Ireland are continuing the fight of men like Collins and the 1916 uprising. The current conflict in Ireland (Yes current) truely started in 1969 and became what is known in that beautiful Irish understated way as 'The troubles'. The republic of Ireland had a referendum some time ago and they don't want the six countys any more than the British want them. In 1970 the British Government let it be known to the Irish Gov that if it invaded Londonderry then it would not be resisted. The Irish did not want to know. The British are as sick of the tribal squabals as the Irish are, so the answer? Let the bloody terrorists run the place, hence Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams are now power sharing with David Trimble, good ridence to the bloody lot of them.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Still if indeed it is the case then they are not really Catholic. Real Catholics following the hieracy that leads to the Pope. There is no way that the Pope would be ok with the acts that were described on this thread. That I am sure about.

LOL....Spoken like true Muslim

Oh, and heres another story from an Irish source telling you about the IRAs torture and murder of Irish Catholics.

[URL]http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/01/20/ihead.htm[/URL]

TWO brothers, members of the Real IRA, were the main perpetrators of the Omagh bombing in which 29 people died, including unborn twins, and another 250 were injured, according to security forces in the North.
One of the men died last year in hospital while his brother, second in command of the renegade terrorist group, continues to live in Dundalk, where he has not been arrested because of a lack of sufficient evidence.
British Conservative MP, Andrew Hunter, has threatened to name him in the House of Commons but is reconsidering following an appeal from RUC chief constable Ronnie Flanagan and Secretary of State, Mo Mowlam.
They warned that disclosing their names would make it difficult to convict him if he was to be arrested. They have interviewed at least 20 people and have six chief suspects for the atrocity.
In a statement the Chief Constable said: "If speculation is accurate that certain parliamentarians intend to name him under parliamentary privilege, suspects believed to be involved in specific crimes, such a move could be prejudicial to the prospect of successfully bringing before the courts those involved in such crimes."
The chief constable said that while there is continuing ground for optimism that those responsible will be prosecuted, there is not yet sufficient evidence to bring them before the courts.
Border Republicans were already well aware of the name of the man behind the atrocity last August and security sources in the North said he planned the entire operation.
The man, who is married with a family, is a much feared former Provisional IRA hard-liner who helped form the Real IRA when the Provos declared a cease-fire in 1997.
He was once accused of killing two Ulster police officers but evaded prosecution by fleeing to the Republic.
According to the RUC he has been involved in operating a reign of terror in nationalist enclaves where he seemingly sits in judgement on petty criminals who are subsequently beaten up or knee capped.
He was linked by the security forces to a Provo gang that tortured and then murdered a small time farmer, Tom Oliver from the Cooley Peninsula in Carlingford, Co. Louth.
Mr Oliver, a father of seven had gone out one night in July 1991 to help a cow give birth. But an IRA snatch squad was lying in wait.
They bundled him into the back of a car and drove him to the notorious bandit country in South Armagh.
There he was taken to a house that the IRA used to torture victims they suspected of being informers.
Stripped naked, Mr Oliver was beaten senseless and was then dressed in a boiler suit. The IRA gang shot him six times and then dumped his body in the South Armagh village of Belleek.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[ViperPilot 0]

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It has to be society as a whole crushing it

I should have added that in my post. I agree, you can't just overrun them using govt agencies, it's going to have to be a collective effort on the part of every citizen.

[kevinwhelan 0]

Viperpilot just replying to your post as it was lhe last one

This is one of the most entertaining threads I have read

BTW to whoever said it, you could come over here and have whatever you want on a t-shirt and no one would care, Just dont insult the real god Guinness
also dont expect to skydive we have been weathered out for the last 6 weekends

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing