JohnRich 4
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......and go down in flames with her.
Souunds like dramatic opera
dudeist skydiver # 3105
mr2mk1g 10
QuoteThe sarcasm was to highlight the sorry state of affairs that brave British cops have to face, because the public doesn't trust them with guns.
A big part of why UK cops don't have guns is because they don't want guns - straight from the ACPO. The last survey of police officers on the question returned the result that 79% of officers were not in favor of their being routinely armed (police federation survey).
They also don't need them for the most part. Remember this is the UK, not Baghdad, Lebanon or the US. The vast majority of incidents are handled perfectly well without a firearm - if they weren't it stands to reason that the ACPO and the officers themselves would want firearms, wouldn't they.
QuoteMeanwhile, gun crime and violent crime continues to increase in England...
You know now that this is not true. Violent crime is dropping and has been doing so for some time now. When we last spoke about this about 6 months ago, I showed you statistics from the BCS which put violent crime down 36% in the last 10 years and in the last year it had dropped a further 3%.
Since then a further BCS has been published by the Home Office which show that now violent crime is down 43% in the last 10 years and that it has fallen 11% in the last year.
Don't pedal your lies here John, I have no tolerance for them and I will call you on them every time I see you posting them. This has to be the 4th or 5th time I've picked you up on this specific lie so far. It's becoming exceptionally tiresome!
(crime statistics from the British Crime Survey 2003/4 and 2004/5)
SkyDekker 1,465
I don't think John could ever imagine that people can be happy and safe without guns.
Ron 10
QuoteI don't think John could ever imagine that people can be happy and safe without guns.
Sure he could...Show him a place where criminals don't have them.
But don't take his away while criminals have them.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteSure he could...Show him a place where criminals don't have them.
Well, that must be England then...where the majority of cops don't want guns....
Ron 10
QuoteWell, that must be England then...where the majority of cops don't want guns....
Oh yeah, England is safe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4668245.stm
Quotehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/4717249.stm
Michael Shields, 18, from Wavertree, was accused of attacking the barman by throwing a brick at his head.
Martin Georgiev, 25, suffered a fractured skull and may have brain damage, the Bulgarian court was told.
Quotehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/4717655.stm
A man has been charged with attempted murder after two partygoers were attacked with swords and fence posts.
The two 20-year-old men from Liverpool were attacked at a party in Lower Kersal in Salford early on Saturday. One is critically ill in hospital.
Quotehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4717823.stm
A driver caught with a miniature pistol hidden in her knickers has walked free from court....She claimed to have been the victim of a sex attack two years earlier which had left her feeling vulnerable and in need of protection.
Do I need to keep going?
Some "safe" place
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
QuoteDo I need to keep going?
Please don't.
No where is safe particularly any more, except maybe Brunei. Is the UK safer than the US? In my opinion it is a shit load safer.
Being able to cite several incidents isn't going to fill anyone except the least educated persons with the belief that a single area is better or worse than anywhere else.
All you have acheived is telling us that some crime happened in a country - oh my god, I'm so shocked.
CJP
Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people
Ron 10
QuoteNo where is safe particularly any more, except maybe Brunei. Is the UK safer than the US? In my opinion it is a shit load safer.
Your opinion. I think an armed populace is safer than being a victum. Kennesaw, GA shows that pretty well.
QuoteBeing able to cite several incidents isn't going to fill anyone except the least educated persons with the belief that a single area is better or worse than anywhere else.
He claimed that England was safer based on the cops not wanting guns. Not very scientific either. My links showed that England is not the utopia he claimed. Funny thing is this thread was about LEO's shooting someone...Seemed someone thought they should have guns.
QuoteAll you have acheived is telling us that some crime happened in a country - oh my god, I'm so shocked.
I showed VIOLENT crime that happend in your "Police don't have the need to carry guns utopia." Of course don't let rape, murder, or people carring illegally bother you and your knowledge.
England is far from utopia.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteHe claimed that England was safer based on the cops not wanting guns.
No, I did not......
After it was brought up that the majority of police officers in England do not want guns, I wrote that I thought it would be hard for John Rich to understand people could be happy and safe without guns.
You answered for him and said sure, if I could point out aplace where the criminals did not have guns...
I replied tongue in cheek that that must be England, since the majority of cops do not want guns....
And you are absolutely right, if a population of a country is heavily armed crime rates go down...Just like for instance in Iraq....their populastion was heavily armed during Saddam's reign and nobody ever got killed......
Ron 10
QuoteAnd you are absolutely right, if a population of a country is heavily armed crime rates go down...Just like for instance in Iraq....their populastion was heavily armed during Saddam's reign and nobody ever got killed......
Check a place like Kennesaw GA...Tell me why have crime rates gone DOWN there after they passed the law requiring all head of households to have a gun and ammo?
Go ahead, take your best shot.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
JohnRich 4
QuoteQuoteMeanwhile, gun crime and violent crime continues to increase in England...
You know now that this is not true. Violent crime is dropping and has been doing so for some time now. Don't pedal your lies here John...
News quote:
Violent offences in England and Wales reached record levels in 2004-5 with police recording one million crimes - up 7% from the previous year.Source: BBC News
Total recorded crime fell... but gun crime was up 6%.
That's where I got my information. My source contradicts your source. That doesn't make me a liar.
JohnRich 4
QuoteI don't think John could ever imagine that people can be happy and safe without guns.
I was talking about cops, not "people". Pay attention.
American cops already have the means to defend themselves, without having to call for a special patrol vehicle to come save them. If British cops are happy being defenseless against violent attack, I don't care - that's their business. But I think they should have the right to choose that for themselves, and not have it mandated as a police policy. For the poll quoted, there are a lot of cops who would like to have a gun while on patrol, but can't.
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteCheck a place like Kennesaw GA...Tell me why have crime rates gone DOWN there after they passed the law requiring all head of households to have a gun and ammo?
Go ahead, take your best shot.
Sure, right after you prove that this drop in crime would not have occured without that law.
Ron 10
QuoteSure, right after you prove that this drop in crime would not have occured without that law.
Lets see law was not passed, had high crime rates.
Law got passed, crime dropped.
Pretty simple if you ask me.
But why don't you for once actually look into something before you claim its bullshit. You might learn something.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
kelel01 1
When, praytel, was that law passed? Kennesaw went through a major revamping, and it's now very upper middle class. Could be strictly coincidental. I know that "I want proof" Ron wouldn't accept circumstancial evidence from others.
And whilst demanding proof from others, why not dare to go look for their proof for them? "You might learn something".
And whilst demanding proof from others, why not dare to go look for their proof for them? "You might learn something".
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteLets see law was not passed, had high crime rates.
Law got passed, crime dropped.
Pretty simple if you ask me.
right well, that proves it....
You really think it is that simple? I guess that would explain a thing or two......
Ron 10
QuoteWhen, praytel, was that law passed?
1982, Reworked in 1986.
QuoteSec. 34-1. Heads of households to maintain firearms.
(a) In order to provide for the emergency management of the city, and further in order to provide for and protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants, every head of household residing in the city limits is required to maintain a firearm, together with ammunition therefor.
(b) Exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who suffer a physical or mental disability which would prohibit them from using such a firearm. Further exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who are paupers or who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine, or persons convicted of a felony.
(Code 1986, § 4-3-10)
QuoteKennesaw went through a major revamping, and it's now very upper middle class.
Yep wanna guess WHEN?
And as for if it worked:
QuoteKennesaw once again was in the news on May 1, 1982, when the city unanimously passed a law requiring "every head of household to maintain a firearm together with ammunition." After passage of the law, the burglary rate in Kennesaw declined and even today, the City has the lowest crime rate in Cobb County.
Source: http://www.kennesaw.ga.us/index.asp?NID=36
QuoteAnd whilst demanding proof from others, why not dare to go look for their proof for them? "You might learn something".
Now you wanna do your own homework? Or you want me to do it for you? I already learned about this, maybe you should do your own homework?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
billvon 3,120
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>Lets see law was not passed, had high crime rates.
>Law got passed, crime dropped.
>Pretty simple if you ask me.
Cool! You could apply that to lots of things. Let's see -
Assault weapon ban passed, crime drops. Pretty simple.
Economy does great. Bush is elected. Economy tanks. Pretty simple.
No massive terrorist attacks. Bush is elected. Massive terrorist attack. Pretty simple.
Thanks for simplifying these previously complex issues!
>Law got passed, crime dropped.
>Pretty simple if you ask me.
Cool! You could apply that to lots of things. Let's see -
Assault weapon ban passed, crime drops. Pretty simple.
Economy does great. Bush is elected. Economy tanks. Pretty simple.
No massive terrorist attacks. Bush is elected. Massive terrorist attack. Pretty simple.
Thanks for simplifying these previously complex issues!
SkyDekker 1,465
okay Ron, now prove that it went down because of that!
Anything else happen during that time?
Major arrests of criminals in a smaller community?
Big employment boost?
Showing some numbers and dates is not the same as proof.
Anything else happen during that time?
Major arrests of criminals in a smaller community?
Big employment boost?
Showing some numbers and dates is not the same as proof.
kelel01 1
There's one big hole in your theory . . . I don't think that most people know about that law being in effect. How would it work if no one knows? I vaguely recall hearing about it once before in my life. And I know that no one adheres to it. Many of my friends live in Kennesaw and don't own a gun.
SkyDekker 1,465
come on, don't confuse Ron with reality.....that is no fun.
Ron 10
QuoteQuote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets see law was not passed, had high crime rates.
Law got passed, crime dropped.
Pretty simple if you ask me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
right well, that proves it....
You really think it is that simple? I guess that would explain a thing or two......
Still not willing to admit you are wrong huh? Typical for you.
How about I do some homework for you since you are inept or lazy.
QuoteCity of Kennesaw 1981(Pre-Gun Law)
Population: 5,242
Burglaries: (per 100,000 pop): 1,026
Total Part 1 Crimes: (per 100,000): 4,332
City of Kennesaw 1982(Post Gun Law)
Population: 5,308
Burglaries: (per 100,000 pop): 665
Total Part 1 Crimes: (per 100,000): 3,135
City of Kennesaw 2002
Population: 22,664
Burglaries (per 100,000): 264
Total Part 1 Crimes (per 100,000): 2,345
U.S. Average 2002
Burglaries (per 100,000): 746
Total Part 1 Crimes (per 100,000): 4,118
City of Kennesaw 2003
Population: 25,183
Burglaries (per 100,000): 353
Total Part 1 Crimes (per 100,000): 2,438
U.S. Average 2003
Burglaries (per 100,000): 740
Total Part 1 Crimes (per 100,000): 4,063
Summary: Although the population of the City of Kennesaw and surrounding area has increased dramatically since 1981, on a per capita basis crimes rates were actually lower in 2002 than in 1981. It is also noted that crimes involving the use of a firearm are less than 2% of the total crimes reported.
Note: To control for population differences and make descriptions and make comparisons between jurisdictions more accurate and meaningful, index crimes are reported at the rate per 100,000 persons.
Part 1 crimes consist of: Murder, Non-Negligent Manslaughter, Rape, Robbery, Aggravated Assault, Burglary, Larceny, Auto Theft and Arson.
Source: City of Kennesaw POLICE department http://www.kennesaw-ga.gov/index.asp?NID=137
Do try to do your homework.
God thats gotta sting being made to look stupid like that....Or are you STILL gonna claim there is no connection? (I'm betting on this to be honest...Don't know what else I can do...I mean you were to lazy to even do the work, I handed it to you from a reliable source.....I can't make a guy be smart enough to read and comprehend it).
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
As for "learning to debate", perhaps you need a few lessons yourself.
First of all, one of the objects of discussion was whether or not British police are armed. I provided two references to demonstrate how that is structured, which matched with what I originally posted going from memory. Those references supported my view of things, and contradicted the other person's view. The references were a British police web site, and an encyclopedia web site - very credible sources.
Second, the discussion web site about how unarmed British cops respond to force, showed the same line of thinking that I posted as sarcasm. Yeah, it wasn't serious, and wasn't intended to be. The sarcasm was to highlight the sorry state of affairs that brave British cops have to face, because the public doesn't trust them with guns.
Meanwhile, gun crime and violent crime continues to increase in England...
Oh, and third, people who aren't willing to post their real names in their profiles, don't earn any credibility points themselves.
I would suggest that if you want to jump on a bandwagon, that the one driven by Cristalsabine is a poor choice. But feel free to hop aboard and go down in flames with her.
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