God is dead. (warning: rant)

[br0k3n 0]

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No,the Bible does not contradict itself. .

yes it does http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#beasts_in_ark

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[pajarito 0]

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No,the Bible does not contradict itself. .

yes it does http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#beasts_in_ark

How many kinds did Noah bring into the ark,
two or seven?

[AlexCrowley 0]

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No,the Bible does not contradict itself. .

yes it does http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#beasts_in_ark

How many kinds did Noah bring into the ark,
two or seven?

I love the apologists, makes me laugh my butt off.

What I truly cannot fathom is that both believer and non-believer seem to insist in the integrity of the Bible. For the xtians it must be ABSOLUTELY FACTUALLY TRUE. For the non-believers any contradiction, regardless of triviality, makes the entire book null and void.

Given the history of the KJV transaltion, the political history of the religion, the way the current selection of biblical books were chosen, I do not believe that a work that size is going to remain internally consistent at all times, but neither do I believe that it needs to be so.

The catholic church knows that there is more to the Christian canon than the small fraction available within the Bible itself.

Like most religions and cults - the Bible is the book for the uneducated and the neophyte, gaining wisdom within the discipline and attaining higher rank gets access to more of that religions mysteries.

I really believe this is where the protestants got screwed out of a lot of knowledge and understanding, by rejecting catholicism they rejected a very large part of available christian wisdom and placed far too much emphasis on a book that is really just a primer and introduction to a much greater mystery.

(disclaimer: I am not a christian)

BTW the apologists 'answers to contradictions in the bible' are bogus, and I would be more than happy to debate each point when I have the time. As I said, I dont feel apologies are necessary anymore than I believe in a need for a 'perfect' bible.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[rehmwa 2]

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Like most religions and cults - the Bible is the book for the uneducated and the neophyte, gaining wisdom within the discipline and attaining higher rank gets access to more of that religions mysteries.

Many do consider any type of religion to be devious and controlling in nature. I think that large organized religions have evolved to that, but still have genuine types that have good intentions within it that are exploited even further (kind of like today's liberals )

But is it impossible to consider, even under the assumption that a deity is not real, that the origins of some religious rituals/customs were benevolent in nature? Example - not eating pork (which spoiled easily back then), keeping eating and cooking equipment in a very clean state (avoiding food poisoning), rules on social conduct (don't steal, don't kill, etc). These real and helpful customs, at that time, were likely much easier to convince and enforce by saying "God says so or else you'll be possesed by a demon that will make you poop and throw up uncontrollably" rather than "hey, don't eat that, you'll get sick and poop and throw up uncontrollably". Also, so level of mitigation of the fear of death is useful to avoid anarchy, etc.

I just think that religion is a natural part of the growth of a culture. The real question is not whether we 'grow out of it', but rather can the application of religion in a more sophisticated world be primarily a positive tool for improving how humans interact with each - rather than a tool of a type of 'political' manipulation. I think the positive application of religious beliefs demands a more de-centralized type of application to keep the manipulative facet minimized (i.e., a quietly religious individual is usually a decent caring person, while a largely religious organization breeds a percentage intolerant zealots)

But if society can't handle a large "religious machine" then, we'd likely all be better off without it at all.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AlexCrowley 0]

I may be missing the point of your post, but I wasnt trying to imply anything negative.

Religions generally have multiple layers because some teachings are considered too complex for the layperson or unintiated. In these kinds of forums it can be tough to discuss xtianity because you'll have the 'bible is the exact word of god' guy and the agnostic and the guy who's done bible study and understands more about the context in which it was written.

Fun stuff in general, certainly not something I consider manipulative from any religion, just basic common sense.

Aliester Crowley once noted about his membership of the occult order of the Golden Dawn, that after a mystical initiation and much ceremony he was entrusted with the secret occult wisdom of the Hebrew alphabet.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Jason,

Lately I have been staying out of religious debates because I have found them futile. However, I hear something different when I read your post.

Have you noticed that all those terrible things that are happening are being caused by humans who think they have all the answers. If there is a god (as you know I believe there is), don't you think he is much wiser and greater than all us pea-brains that grace this earth for maybe a 100 years? Have you ever asked God what you can do for Him rather than looking out for what God should do for you (credit to Pres. Kennedy)? It amazes me how many people these days are so impressed with their own perceived intelligence and/or wisdom to honestly believe they have God and the existence of, all figured out. What I think mankind needs is a real dose of humility.

What is the baseline for that humility? What comparison point do we have? Are we really pea-brained - how do you know this god is smarter than you or has some sort of superior power? Do you want to live your life against a set of rules that are over 1500 years old, created in a time nothing like today....without the knowledge and education we have acquired? Science may become the new religion - theory that becomes fact thrhough well defined methods. Why do we need to go off fairy tales that were told to children to keep them in line?

I refuse to support an idea or belief that does nothing but tear the world apart and create space between us. If your ideal god was real, I'm sure he wouldn't want his name to be the weapon that kills so many. There is the all-time fall back the believers use: free-will. It is the band-aid, cure all excuse that is relied upon too often.

Chris, I mean no disrespect for your beliefs....however, the power that people wield in the name of religion has been the most destructive force humanity has ever seen. There isn't a need for such a thing anymore.

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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Sopheavy 0]

I know God exists.
I haven’t seen God but I know God is as real as the sunrise this morning and the air that I breathe.
Faith is the evidence to things unseen….I don’t see the wind but I can feel it and know it’s there.
I don’t need to see God to know God is real.

I’ve had a very interesting religious background. My mom was raised in a muslim family and my dad is Buddhist, when they got married, she converted to Buddhism. So I was a Buddhist growing up. There were some stuff that made me question a lot of things and I wasn’t satisfied with the religion I grew up in so I started looking into different religions. I became a mormon for about a year and did not like the doctrine so I became an atheist and started studying a lot of other religions and beliefs, whether it be considered dark or good.

I was going through lot when I was a teenager and was upset at God (didn’t know if he was real or not) but needed someone to take the blame so God was my punching bag for all everything that was bad in my life. I know people used to tell me about Jesus but I never believed in him. Well, I still remembered that one night when I wanted to take my own life but wanted to give God one more chance. I said “Jesus, if you’re real, I challenge you to change my life.” That instant I felt different inside as if I was fulfilled and all the bitterness and emptiness I felt were filled by this complete feeling of love. I thought when I woke up the next morning I was still going to feel crappy but I didn’t. I felt totally different, as was my whole outlook on life. It was as if I was given a new life. Accepting Jesus into my life is the best decision I have made in my life. So, that’s how I became a Christian. Even after 10 years, it’s not easy when your whole family still despises you for the change and it is considered an insult to your culture. I feel really blessed to live in America where I can be a Christian and not get jailed or killed for it. :)

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If you want to see the rainbow, you gotta put up with the storm. God bless! :)

[Muenkel 0]

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Chris, I mean no disrespect for your beliefs....however, the power that people wield in the name of religion has been the most destructive force humanity has ever seen. There isn't a need for such a thing anymore.

You just said it, what 'people' have done in the name of religion. You've made my point. Is this a case of putting the cart before the horse? Your last statement confuses me; "There isn't a need for such a thing anymore". A need for what, people or religion? I respect your beliefs also. I just see it from a different point of view. It's not God who has screwed up, it's people.

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Chris

[pajarito 0]

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I refuse to support an idea or belief that does nothing but tear the world apart and create space between us. If your ideal god was real, I'm sure he wouldn't want his name to be the weapon that kills so many.

Why believe in a religion that had the Inquisition and Witch Trials?

"If anyone wishes to condemn Christianity because of the failures of its members, then will they also look at its successes and approve of Christianity? It would only be fair to look at the whole of Christian history and more importantly at what the Bible actually teaches, in particular the New Testament, from which Christianity is derived."

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

I promise you, I have spent plenty of years talking, practicing, studying religion....more than most I am certain. I have had moments where I thought some higher power talked to me, and in reality it was just me needing to believe in something at that moment. The mind is a powerful thing - it can make you sick or it can make you believe in a god.

Fact is there is nothing to back up anything that any religion preaches. That is where faith comes.....and it's about the same as kids believing in Santa Claus.

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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[pajarito 0]

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Fact is there is nothing to back up anything that any religion preaches. That is where faith comes.....and it's about the same as kids believing in Santa Claus.

Why do you believe in Jesus but not Santa Claus?

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Didn't read it - but my guess is the article talks about historical data supporting the man named Jesus, right? Never denied such a person walked the Earth....however, what makes his words different than any other that proclaims they are the son of god? I'm sure you have a link for that......but I can tell you the answer you should say. Faith. It is the only thing that can't be argued because it is personal. However, most don't keep it personal - they tend to push it on others to the point of death.

Belief systems kill others that don't believe.

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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[SpeedRacer 1]

Belief systems don't kill people.

People kill people.

Speed Racer
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[pajarito 0]

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however, what makes his words different than any other that proclaims they are the son of god?

He backed them up with fulfilled prophesy and witnessed miracles. He foretold his own torture, crucifixion, death, and resurrection. All for a selfless purpose.

Here’s one:

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Psalms
12 Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me. 13 Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. 16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. 18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

Written approximately 1000 years before Jesus was born.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

There are people that believe that Nostradamus has fortold the future as well. Witnessed miracles? You mean stories that were passed on for generations before being put on paper? I'm sure the reports were not bent at all to get in line with the prophecy. I've said it before - it takes 10 min after a fatality for the media to report an incorrect take that thousands will believe as real because it was passed on to them. How much will a story mutate over many years when most were uneducated?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[SpeedRacer 1]

gospels were written between roughly 70 and 90 AD.

anyway, what do you want from us? sounds like you've pretty much made up your mind.

I'd recommend CS Lewis book Mere Christianity. Very readable & lucid description of why Christians believe what they do.

It would be a lot more productive than playing in the Special Olympics on the Internet.

Speed Racer
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[skydivermom 0]

Again, I will go back to my point about the "wisdom of men" and how we can take verses out of context and not understand their meaning. This commentary that you downloaded was written by man who obviously do not understand the meaning and the context of these verses. You can continue to believe that it contradicts itself if you want, but I think if you read and study it and really see what it's talking about you will understand what it's saying. God CANNOT lie! If you want me to send some info. explaining some of these misguided assumptions I will be glad to PM you. As I said before, I don't have all the answers and some parts of the bible are still confusing to me. This will be a good experience for me because I will get to learn and study more. It would take up too much time to talk about everything mentioned on that website, but it seems, in my OPINION, if this person put more effort in trying to actually understand what the bible is saying he would get much more out of it.

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[Mockingbird 0]

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Fact is there is nothing to back up anything that any religion preaches. That is where faith comes.....and it's about the same as kids believing in Santa Claus.

... except for the fact it's unanimous among sane, logical people in the world that Santa Claus is NOT real. The same can't be said about God.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Trae 1]

The veil is lifted....I agree this god concept thing sucks.
Our God got very bored and lonely with itself and so turned itself into a universe that couldn't be put back together.....just so the big dude didn't have to cry itself to sleep everynight.

WE ARE GOD or at least little bits of god ...encouraged to be confused and scared. We also have the same tendency to wreck beautiful things ..just like god does.

If we get it all together again, little blown up goddy gets all bored and self destructive again.

Not a wrathful god just a very very very very lonely pathetic thing.
You'd be lonely tooo if you were the only thing that ever existed.... and if you knew everything..you'd want to forget it all as well...perhaps

Now what is out there beyond everything.?....my guess is it aint the 'god' we got lumped with.

Heaven's so boring and restrictive everyone left leaving god all alone ....again

Hell is now heaven and heaven is pure hell..for god.
God created a monster and it was good...o god When the angels that fly the void returned and found their creation being distorted and misused they gave us all "time to die".

So why's everyone in such a hurry? we've all got plenty of time to die.....gods little death delusion gets played out billions of times a second. The maximum death rate achievable on this planet is only equalled by the maximum life rate.

yep god sucks ...its the angels that run this place!

[pajarito 0]

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Again, I will go back to my point about the "wisdom of men" and how we can take verses out of context and not understand their meaning. This commentary that you downloaded was written by man who obviously do not understand the meaning and the context of these verses. You can continue to believe that it contradicts itself if you want, but I think if you read and study it and really see what it's talking about you will understand what it's saying. God CANNOT lie! If you want me to send some info. explaining some of these misguided assumptions I will be glad to PM you. As I said before, I don't have all the answers and some parts of the bible are still confusing to me. This will be a good experience for me because I will get to learn and study more. It would take up too much time to talk about everything mentioned on that website, but it seems, in my OPINION, if this person put more effort in trying to actually understand what the bible is saying he would get much more out of it.

Did you mean to respond to me?

[waltappel 1]

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Fact is there is nothing to back up anything that any religion preaches. That is where faith comes.....and it's about the same as kids believing in Santa Claus.

... except for the fact it's unanimous among sane, logical people in the world that Santa Claus is NOT real. The same can't be said about God.

Depending on how you define sane and logical, maybe it is.

edited to add:

I worked in a psychiatric hospital for about a year and a half. I met several incarnations of Jesus while working there. One of them was actually somewhat convincing.

Face it, when religious people are confronted with someone who claims to be one of the objects of their worship, they automatically assume they are dealing with a nut case.

Why do you think that is? Because the person cannot PROVE he is who he says he is? But isn't that what FAITH is about?

Walt

[Mockingbird 0]

Fact is there is nothing to back up anything that any religion preaches. That is where faith comes.....and it's about the same as kids believing in Santa Claus.
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... except for the fact it's unanimous among sane, logical people in the world that Santa Claus is NOT real. The same can't be said about God.
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Depending on how you define sane and logical, maybe it is.
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I take it you agree.
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I worked in a psychiatric hospital for about a year and a half. I met several incarnations of Jesus while working there. One of them was actually somewhat convincing. Face it, when religious people are confronted with someone who claims to be one of the objects of their worship, they automatically assume they are dealing with a nut case.
Why do you think that is? Because the person cannot PROVE he is who he says he is? But isn't that what FAITH is about?

Walt
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Some people in Jesus's day thought that he was a kook, too, because he claimed to be the Son of God; in fact, he claimed to be the "I AM" of the old testament; in other words, God (in the flesh). However, he DID prove that he was who he said he was, and therefore many believed. The ultimate validation by God that Christ was/is His son is that He brought him back alive from the grave.
PS. Sorry about not using the markup format--- all the quotes of quotes gets confusing.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[pajarito 0]

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I'd recommend CS Lewis book Mere Christianity. Very readable & lucid description of why Christians believe what they do.

Excellent book!

[br0k3n 0]

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... except for the fact it's unanimous among sane, logical people in the world that Santa Claus is NOT real. The same can't be said about God.

I've corrected your spelling...

except for the fact it's unanimous among sane, logical people in the world that Santa Claus is NOT real. The same can be said about God

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Falko 0]

To the Original Post(er): I'm with you. But still, life is good and I will enjoy it until I die. If there's one thing giving me comfort, it's the knowledge that we all will share the same fate in the end: Death, and whatever (maybe) comes after that.

I haven't read the whole thread. Just wanna contribute a few quotes (edited for readability by myself) of a movie I think is a must see... Fight Club!

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TYLER
Shut up. Our fathers were our models
for God. And, if our fathers bailed,
what does that tell us about God?

JACK
I don't know...

SHOT OF EMBERS POURING FROM THE HELLISH FOREST FIRE. RESUME:

Tyler SLAPS Jack's face again...

TYLER
Listen to me. You have to consider
the possibility that God doesn't like
you, he never wanted you. In all
probability, He hates you. This is
not the worst thing that can happen...

JACK
It isn't... ?

TYLER
We don't need him...

JACK
We don't... ?

TYLER
Fuck damnation. Fuck redemption. We
are God's unwanted children, with no
special place and no special
attention, and so be it.

Jack looks at Tyler -- they lock eyes. Jack does his best
to stifle his spasms of pain, his body a quivering, coiled
knot. He bolts toward the sink, but Tyler holds on.

TYLER
You can go to the sink and run water
over your hand. Look at me. Or you
can use vinegar to neutralize the
burn, but first you have to give up.
First, you have to know that someday,
you are going to die. Until you know
that, you will be useless.

I found that to be one of the strongest and most enlightening scenes I've ever seen in a movie.

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)