God is dead. (warning: rant)

[sinker 0]

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Oh and as far as your concern of people remembering us. Shit I could die today and I'd be willing to bet that more people would be celebrating than weeping

I for one wouldn't be celebrating, b/c that would mean you wouldn't give us more kick ass base videos. that would be a tragedy.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[vmsfreaky1 0]

I've had a similar thoughts regarding a God and that he was indeed deceased.

I often wonder whether thats how the universe came to be, that is to say God's death was the cause of our life and the universes' existence, God's legacy so to speak.

IF there is a God, he isn't an interventionist (Any Nick Cave fans out there )

[vmsfreaky1 0]

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Somewhere in Germany, in a bar, on the bathroom wall it says:

"God is dead. - F. Nietzsche"

and just below it, it says:

"Nietzsche is dead. - God"

I've seen that elsewhere and LMAO!

Funny Shit.

[br0k3n 0]

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man made religions are a joke.

I agree.

you're agreeing that ALL religions are a joke?

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Mockingbird 0]

Wrongway, it sounds to me like you are trying to convince yourself He's dead. Be careful 'cos it might eventually work!

As you can tell, I DO believe in God for several reasons. I guess the biggest reason is that, to me, He is the only explanation for the universe and the earth we live on. A lot of people say, Oh no--- the big bang is the explanation. Well, I don't believe in a big bang necessarily, but even if there were a "big bang," what existed BEFORE that to cause it? If you have an answer for that, like say, some kind of atomic gases or something, well, then what existed before to cause the gases? If you keep asking, "... and what was before THAT?" you realize that there had to be a First Cause SOMEWHERE way back there. So, I think it's actually pretty logical to believe in God.

But, as they say, that's just my 2¢.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[br0k3n 0]

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Wrongway, it sounds to me like you are trying to convince yourself He's dead. Be careful 'cos it might eventually work!

As you can tell, I DO believe in God for several reasons. I guess the biggest reason is that, to me, He is the only explanation for the universe and the earth we live on. A lot of people say, Oh no--- the big bang is the explanation. Well, I don't believe in a big bang necessarily, but even if there were a "big bang," what existed BEFORE that to cause it? If you have an answer for that, like say, some kind of atomic gases or something, well, then what existed before to cause the gases? If you keep asking, "... and what was before THAT?" you realize that there had to be a First Cause SOMEWHERE way back there. So, I think it's actually pretty logical to believe in God.

But, as they say, that's just my 2¢.

This is called the “God of gaps” argument, because it uses gaps in our current understanding, and science’s present knowledge, to say “Well there must be a God”. I am afraid to say that it doesn’t work that way. Although there is plenty of things that we still don’t know or understand about the universe, is not evidence that Gods exist, its evidence that there is plenty of things that we still don’t know or understand about the universe.

Our ancestors had Gods for lightning, for the wind, for thunder, as these were gaps in their understanding. However now we know what causes lightning, wind and thunder and therefore have no need for these gods anymore. So they disappear and are replaced with gods to explain other gaps in science. This process will continues for a very long time, until there is nothing left to discover, and at that point all Gods will be DEAD
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Simply stating that “God did it” is a very weak, uniformed opinion, and most ilogical. If that is your belief then HOW did God do it, and the answer will be, “by unknown means/powers” which just goes to show that you are trying to answer one mystery with another. So answering that God created the earth, is no more answering the question of how the earth was created then by saying that “we don’t know yet” So why jump to conclusions???????????

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Mockingbird 0]

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This is called the “God of gaps” argument, because it uses gaps in our current understanding, and science’s present knowledge, to say “Well there must be a God”. I am afraid to say that it doesn’t work that way. Although there is plenty of things that we still don’t know or understand about the universe, is not evidence that Gods exist, its evidence that there is plenty of things that we still don’t know or understand about the universe.

Of course, I disagree. (Big surprise, huh.) First Cause is a logical argument. Gaps in science's understanding has nothing to do with it. For every effect, there is a cause. Just because science cannot explain God, doesn't mean that He doesn't exist. God's existence won't be proven, anyway, by debate, logic, or science. Right now, God is only really known by faith; but a time is coming when "every eye will see Him."

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Our ancestors had Gods for lightning, for the wind, for thunder, as these were gaps in their understanding. However now we know what causes lightning, wind and thunder and therefore have no need for these gods anymore.

This is true. However, even while many people were worshipping false gods, the worship of the REAL God was also occurring. At every point in the history of mankind, the true God has been acknowledged by some.

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So they disappear and are replaced with gods to explain other gaps in science. This process will continues for a very long time, until there is nothing left to discover, and at that point all Gods will be DEAD.

I seriously doubt that there will ever come a time that there is nothing left to discover! Science will never have ALL the answers. But even if it ever did come to that point, it would not necessitate the "death" of God!

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Simply stating that “God did it” is a very weak, uniformed opinion, and most ilogical. If that is your belief then HOW did God do it, and the answer will be, “by unknown means/powers” which just goes to show that you are trying to answer one mystery with another. So answering that God created the earth, is no more answering the question of how the earth was created then by saying that “we don’t know yet” So why jump to conclusions???????????

There's no need to "jump to conclusions" about HOW God brought the world into existence, because He has already revealed the "how"! He spoke. We're talking about God, not some puny inventor.

No doubt you find my faith as ridiculous as I find others' nonbelief.

I think faith is very much connected to the human will in the sense that if a person is stubborn in his resistance and unwilling to subject himself to God's scrutiny (and God's love), he will not be able to conjure up within himself faith in God no matter how hard he might try... if he wanted to, that is... which he wouldn't!
And now, I will excuse myself from the debate because I'm NOT a good debater. I only wanted to express my opinion on Wrongway's rant.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[br0k3n 0]

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Of course, I disagree. (Big surprise, huh.) First Cause is a logical argument. Gaps in science's understanding has nothing to do with it. For every effect, there is a cause. Just because science cannot explain God, doesn't mean that He doesn't exist. God's existence won't be proven, anyway, by debate, logic, or science. Right now, God is only really known by faith; but a time is coming when "every eye will see Him."

Mockingbird, it is not sciences job to prove that Gods do not exist, my point was that where there is a gap in our knowledge, people i.e you, are very quick to jump to the conclusion that it must therefore prove that gods exist. Your argument was that because we still don’t know 100% how the universe was formed, then it is “logical” to believe that it must have been created by a god. This is ILLOGICAL because you don’t have the information / facts to make that conclusion, you simply don’t know, and therefore are jumping to the conclusion that it must be a god. Do you understand???????

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Our ancestors had Gods for lightning, for the wind, for thunder, as these were gaps in their understanding. However now we know what causes lightning, wind and thunder and therefore have no need for these gods anymore.

Define “REAL” god….. What makes your god any more real then any other……

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I seriously doubt that there will ever come a time that there is nothing left to discover! Science will never have ALL the answers. But even if it ever did come to that point, it would not necessitate the "death" of God!

I seriously doubt it to, but in a hypothetical situation when we can prove how the universe was created etc, what do you think would be left for the gods????

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There's no need to "jump to conclusions" about HOW God brought the world into existence, because He has already revealed the "how"! He spoke. We're talking about God, not some puny inventor.

You’re the one jumping to conclusion, show me where your god reveled how the earth was created "EXACTLY", and not some paragraph in your particular dogma that states it was “just” created in 7 days by some magical power, because as a stated before all you are doing is answering one mystery with another…

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No doubt you find my faith as ridiculous as I find others' nonbelief.

I don’t find it ridiculous at all; I find it intriguing that we as humans in this day and age still need it. I can only conclude that it must be a biological reaction, that I’m sure with time as we involve will decay and die.

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I think faith is very much connected to the human will in the sense that if a person is stubborn in his resistance and unwilling to subject himself to God's scrutiny (and God's love), he will not be able to conjure up within himself faith in God no matter how hard he might try... if he wanted to, that is... which he wouldn't!

Your almost correct here, but what I think you mean is that, if a person chooses not to believe in a god, due to the complete and overwhelming lack of evidence to support “any” god, then they will have no faith.. Correct. If God was to appear before me today, I think it would be safe to say I would have faith… but I don’t think he is going to…..

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[crwtom 0]

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Which position would you want to find yourself in?

Generally I like the idea of optimizing personal benefit through a risk - return analysis ... but I would certainly come to different conclusions

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Believe and live for God your whole life and find out He doesn't exist in the end (you've lost nothing).

I consider non-existence the far more likely scenario - especially since there's absolutely no tangible or coherent definition of this "God thing" really is, not to mention a tangible or coherent reason to assume such an existence.

For me the return however in not neutral. If I only got the time between birth and death I want to experience it as crip and clear as possible, with a mind as open as possible, and experience the sensations for the reality I live in as intensly as possible - no matter whether "pleasant" of not. Given that the sum of my impressions and perceptions between these two points in time (birth/death) is all I am, there is no room for clutter or static in the channels in order to maximize benefit.

Also for optimal return there is absolutly no tolerance to confine myself to some imaginative rules and conceptions of what I am supposed be about and what I am supposed to do with my life. For me, if I can't live free in my mind and need to be constantly surrounded by some "divine padding" I'd feel I was losing chunks of my life in a mental prison. I may never find out in any satisfactory approximation how I, humans and life really came about in the time I have but, at least, I'm not defining my life in as part of a made up fairy tale.

From my suffocating recollection of some brief periond in my life where I was religious as well as the sensation of confinment, narrowness and submisson that I get aound religious arguments I'd consider thi s detrimental to my sense of quality of life. On the extreme often one would consider people with clinical delusional disorders or compullsive behavior to have a lower quality of life and to get less out of tit. I want to stay on the other extreme as much as possible ... for maximal benefit of course.

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Not believe and live for God your whole life and find out He does exist in the end (you've lost everything).

That gamble too could easily be flawed and backfire. If you already take into consideration exitences of meta physical beings, why should there be a restriction on the variety?

Imagine now the universe and all that's in it was really created by three divine entities Grouchumos, Harpumos, and Chicumos. (The way they came into existence is of course a whole different story ...). Now they've been working on a whole bunch of galaxies and invested the last round of serious attention to our plant some 2000 years ago.

Its population of human critters seemed to be on a reasonably good track with there metaphysical philosophies and theologies and it seemed that that the greek and roman catalogues of gods would eventually condense to their trinity, the real one, and all would be good.

They thus went off to have a lunch break - which on their divine time scale takes about 2000-3000 years.

Now they come back from lunch and all they thought was sure to work out went to crap. They had just left the buillding around 300 AD when some emperor critter Constantine made wildly a assorted story book talking about some "God" guy into a world religion and another guy Mohammad did basically the same trick on the other half of the most populated parts of the planet.

The Marxumosian trinity deems those "Godlings" to be beyond repair - they all go straight to the bin. The smaller percentage of atheists, however, they consider in a neutral mode of some sort. They have some hope that their hard drives can still be reconfigured. So they put their souls on the storage shelves and give them a second chance.

How would you know this is not so? ... If you think not prove the contrary.

Cheers, T

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Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[waltappel 1]

This whole discussion strikes me as silly--kind of like the old question of how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

People discussing whether religion=truth are, IMO, discussing the wrong question. The better question (again, IMO) is how the hell can so many people be either gullible enough to believe that crap or gutless enough not to call it what it obviously is--a bunch of BS.

The whole concept of a spook in the sky doesn't even come close to passing the laugh test.

The fact that the people running the show for organized religion are just that--people, not gods--should lead even the most gullible among us to suspect it's all a sham.

As for the "hedging my bet" portion of the discussion, i.e., if I go with the program and find out that there really is no God, then I've lost nothing, it is ridiculous. At least have the balls to go all the way.

I don't understand why so damn many people define themselves in terms of their religion. If I say, "Your God is a bunch of BS", to a religious person, they are likely to get offended. If I say, "The Earth is flat", I will simply be laughed off as a fool. Why is that? My theory is that it is because deep down, religious people know that they are perpetuating a sham and they feel extremely defensive when called on it.

Enough of this religious weirdness for now. Can't we talk about something at least remotely connected to reality?

Walt

[Zenister 0]

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This whole discussion strikes me as silly--kind of like the old question of how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

which is quite possibly the most misunderstood and most often abused example of a 'Socratic' line of philosophical/religious questioning.... it's not 'silly' at all.. it is designed to teach you something in the search for an answer, much like eastern Koans...

in fact i'll buy a jump for the person who can best explain why this question exists, what is the reason for asking it, and expound on a few of the possible answers... (i'd say no google, but that would be pointless.. but perhaps someone will expand their though process in the search..)

ps.. its not 'fit' its 'dance' and the difference is an important part of the question...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[AlexCrowley 0]

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If I say, "Your God is a bunch of BS", to a religious person, they are likely to get offended. If I say, "The Earth is flat", I will simply be laughed off as a fool. Why is that?

Walt, if I say 'your mother is a whore' and 'the earth is flat', which would you be more likely to get offended by?

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[popsjumper 2]

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...
The fact that the people running the show for organized religion are just that--people, not gods--should lead even the most gullible among us to suspect it's all a sham.
Walt

I dunno...our Southern Baptist preacher said that God told him we would all burn in hell if we didn't believe.....I wonder...should I slather myself with barbeque sauce just before I die?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

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I wonder...should I slather myself with barbeque sauce just before I die?

Actually, it's a good thing to do on a regular basis anyway.

Couldn't hurt.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[waltappel 1]

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If I say, "Your God is a bunch of BS", to a religious person, they are likely to get offended. If I say, "The Earth is flat", I will simply be laughed off as a fool. Why is that?

Walt, if I say 'your mother is a whore' and 'the earth is flat', which would you be more likely to get offended by?

The reality is that I would be offended by neither. I know that I am *supposed* to be offended by the whore comment, I'm just not.

Maybe it's because I feel quite a bit more compassion for whores than the average person--I feel very sad for them. Maybe it's because I am quite comfortable in the knowledge that my mother is not in that position. Maybe it's because I truly don't understand the mentality of the kind of person who would say that and *expect* me to get upset. I don't know.

I think your point is that brainwashed people are trained to have specific responses to specific stimuli. Sounds reasonable to me. Maybe I should just accept it and leave it at that.

What makes it difficult for me to do so is that for all of my life I have felt like an outsider looking in, and what I see is madness. Not only in the society where I live, but all over the world. The world is a *very* weird place to me and I have such a hard time relating to a lot of behaviors that I see, that I just kind of walk around mystified most of the time. I have a very difficult time accepting the madness, including the apparent brainwashing. I just cannot relate to it.

Do religious fanatics ever really try and step outside of themselves and look at themselves from different angles?

Walt

[waltappel 1]

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I dunno...our Southern Baptist preacher said that God told him we would all burn in hell if we didn't believe.....I wonder...should I slather myself with barbeque sauce just before I die?

Maybe we both should!

I have to admit that I have a weakness for the "hellfire and brimstone" preachers. I really enjoy watching them work.

Religion is probably the toughest sell there is and the hellfire and brimstone preachers are the ultimate in high-pressure salespeople.

He's not a "hellfire and brimstone" kind of guy, but I have a very deep admiration for Billy Graham. I have been to one of his Crusades and absolutely marveled at his talents. I may bash what he is selling, but I doubt that I will *ever* bash him. He is absolutely remarkable.

Walt

[wmw999 2,565]

Billy Graham seems to truly believe in the goodness of man, and that it can be magnified by looking through God.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[waltappel 1]

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Billy Graham seems to truly believe in the goodness of man, and that it can be magnified by looking through God.

Wendy W.

He really does. Like I said, you will not ever hear me criticize the man. I think he is the genuine article. I don't think his religion is the genuine article, but I like the way he applies it.

Walt

p.s. We're agreeing on a religious point?!!! (I won't tell anybody if you won't!)

[popsjumper 2]

I'm with you on BG...truly remarkable but soon to retire...

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[waltappel 1]

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I'm with you on BG...truly remarkable but soon to retire...

I wonder if any infidels ever speak of Osama bin Laden is such glowing terms?

Walt

[popsjumper 2]

Probably not glowing terms...more like sheep-like praise.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Mockingbird 0]

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I dunno...our Southern Baptist preacher said that God told him we would all burn in hell if we didn't believe.....I wonder...should I slather myself with barbeque sauce just before I die?

He said you would all burn in hell if you didn't believe what?

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[AlexCrowley 0]

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I think your point is that brainwashed people are trained to have specific responses to specific stimuli. Sounds reasonable to me. Maybe I should just accept it and leave it at that.

Exactly my point. I've tried hard to move past thinking that most people are brainwashed, instead I choose the PC term 'conditioned'. [;-)]

I understand your alienation, I've felt the same way most of my life. On the flip side I've found people consider me to be amoral simply because I dont fit into their conditioning. I found relocating to a new society didnt increase that sense, but removed the anchors of any conditioning I'd recieved via osmosis.

As a parent with a a career I find assimilating enough rules to function within acceptable boundaries to be a significant and interesting challenge.

I think they call it Aspergers ;)

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Do religious fanatics ever really try and step outside of themselves and look at themselves from different angles?

Pretty much all the previous posts I've written on here have been related to conflicts of ideologies and the inability of most people (including myself) to rationally argue for or against them when faced with data that directly conflicts with them. Neither do I feel that it's related solely to religion, although these beliefs seem to be some of the most deeply rooted from childhood (which is why god is dead can be as powerful as 'your mom is a whore').

The creation of a mental map to navigate society is both a personal and societal construct, it delineates the boundaries of an acceptable reality and sets rules of behavior. Step outside of those and you will be a pariah, the other, the enemy. By necessity the map tends to be rigid.

Until the industrial age wars were mostly border wars, where these maps would intersect and conflict. A war would be fought and a mentality would win. Winning hearts and minds has always been the aim of war - through force or propoganda.

As communication and travel has become easier and the world becomes smaller the overlay becomes more pronounced. Which brings us to the modern day.

Thank you for tuning into BS theatre :)

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[waltappel 1]

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Thank you for tuning into BS theatre :)

I really like your posts.

Walt

[skydivermom 0]

I don't have to prove anything, I walk by faith, not by sight. That is 2 Corinthians 5:7. Of course if you don't believe the Bible then there is really no point in discussing it. I will certainly pray for you and I hope you someday realize just how real God is (Not a made up fairy tale).

This confining life that you speak of? I have been a Christian for a long time and I've never felt more free. In fact, the bible tells us that we can be slaves to sin. How confining do you think it was for God to take on human flesh (Jesus) and come to earth and endure the treatment that he did. He did not have to do that but he loved us so much.

I don't claim to have all the answers or to be better than anyone and I am certainly not interested in trying to "prove" God's existence. I see evidence of that everyday. Especially the other day when I was gliding down to earth and got to see a sunset at 7,000 ft. If you are looking for concrete proof or are waiting for him to come down and talk to you, you are going to be very disappointed. I hope you do reconcile this while you still have the chance.

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28