Food for thought

[ln311 0]

ah you saw my post before i deleted it...

i like to think i'm always thinking...or at least thinking most of the time. i know a smidgen about the history of the conflicts in the middle east. i support your right to have your own opinion Steel, that's one of the great things about this country. i'll also support my right to disagree with yours. i see your point, i understand what you're trying to say...i just reserve the right to ultimately, personally disagree with you, and not change my mind if i don't feel your evidence/argument/opinion convince me otherwise.

interesting topic, this.

[Casurf1978 0]

Agreed. I stand corrected, Martel did not drive em out. He just stopped them. Very good points.

Off on a tangent. Maybe the Crusades served a different purpose rather than drive the Muslims out of Jerusalem. Rescuing Jerusalem being just a nice little addition. Remember Byzantine had fallen to the Turks and rescuing Byzantine from them could've healed the rift caused by the Great Schism, thus uniting the split Empire under one Pope and under his terms.

[waltappel 1]

Quote

This is a vile posting.

Wendy W.

What's so vile about it?

Walt

[akarunway 1]

The rules of war should be followed. That would be against the rules of war. We're better than that and must hold to our principals. Holy sites are off limits unless the enemy decides to use them for protection, fighting positions, of storage of munitions, etc.. ______________________________________________________________________________________________-----My old man was a fighter pilot in NAM. He used to tell me he bombed red cross buldings and churches all the time. What's new?

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[StreetScooby 5]

I use a Lebanese taxi driver in Memphis, when I'm there on business. This guy, who's well educated and actually owns about a dozen cabs, shared his insight into the Middle East with me. Went something like this...

- Muslims are required to pray 5 times a day. By the time you include preparation, that's alot of time out of your business day.

- Non muslims generally go to church for an hour or two per week.

Who ends up making the most money? The folks doing the most business. Thus, the huge economic divide (generally speaking) between Muslims and non-Muslims in the middle east.

I don't think you'll ever be able to get along with radical Muslims. They're not the type to live and let live. Do ya'll realize it's against the _law_ in Saudia Arabia to even walk the street during prayer time?

This conflict will not end through dialogue. The sooner we target the money behind the Muslim extremists, the better.

We are all engines of karma

[waltappel 1]

I looked up the Islam "sin list" last night and found that they do have a long list of things that are sins, but like Christianity, they can pretty much get away with anything as long as they claim to believe in Allah and Allah is in a forgiving kind of mood on the Judgement Day.

Anyway, they can rape, plunder, pillage, murder, and skip praying all they want and still not go to Muslim Hell, whatever that is.

Here is the list of Islam's major sins (from http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/hh/major_sins.htm).


01. Associating anything with Allah
02. Murder
03. Practising magic
04. Not Praying
05. Not paying Zakat
06. Not fasting on a Day of Ramadan without excuse
07. Not performing Hajj, while being able to do so
08. Disrespect to parents
09. Abandoning relatives
10. Fornication and Adultery
11. Homosexuality(sodomy)
12. Interest(Riba)
13. Wrongfully consuming the property of an orphan
14. Lying about Allah and His Messenger
15. Running away from the battlefield
16. A leader's deceiving his people and being unjust to them
17. Pride and arrogance
18. Bearing false witness
19. Drinking Khamr (wine)
20. Gambling
21. Slandering chaste women
22. Stealing from the spoils of war
23. Stealing
24. Highway Robbery
25. Taking false oath
26. Oppression
27. Illegal gain
28. Consuming wealth acquired unlawfully
29. Committing suicide
30. Frequent lying
31. Judging unjustly
32. Giving and Accepting bribes
33. Woman's imitating man and man's imitating woman
34. Being cuckold
35. Marrying a divorced woman in order to make her lawful for the husband
36. Not protecting oneself from urine
37. Showing-off
38. Learning knowledge of the religion for the sake of this world and concealing that knowledge
39. Bertrayal of trust
40. Recounting favours
41. Denying Allah's Decree
42. Listening (to) people's private conversations
43. Carrying tales
44. Cursing
45. Breaking contracts
46. Believing in fortune-tellers and astrologers
47. A woman's bad conduct towards her husband
48. Making statues and pictures
49. Lamenting, wailing, tearing the clothing, and doing other things of this sort when an affliction befalls
50. Treating others unjustly
51. Overbearing conduct toward the wife, the servant, the weak, and animals
52. Offending one's neighbour
53. Offending and abusing Muslims
54. Offending people and having an arrogant attitude toward them
55. Trailing one's garment in pride
56. Men's wearing silk and gold
57. A slave's running away from his master
58. Slaughtering an animal which has been dedicated to anyone other than Allah
59. To knowingly ascribe one's paternity to a father other than one's own
60. Arguing and disputing violently
61. Witholding excess water
62. Giving short weight or measure
63. Feeling secure from Allah's Plan
64. Offending Allah's righteous friends
65. Not praying in congregation but praying alone without an excuse
66. Persistently missing Friday Prayers without any excuse
67. Unsurping the rights of the heir through bequests
68. Deceiving and plotting evil
69. Spying for the enemy of the Muslims
70. Cursing or insulting any of the Companiions of Allah's Messenger


Notice that elements of terrrorism are on the list (#2 and #69). I suppose that's so they can claim to be a religion of peace. Like Christianity, of course, they leave an out:

Allah Most High says: Surely, Allah does not forgive associating anything with Him, and He forgives whatever is other than that to whomever He wills. (al-Nisa 4:48 and 116)

Back to the list. Did you notice #57 (A slave's running away from his master)? Yep, now there's a sin than deserves eternal damnation!

The point of all this? IMO Islam (and Christianity, for that matter) is a joke. My guess is that Muslims (like Christians, e.g., Bill Clinton) do whatever the hell they want and claim their religions when it is convenient or to their advantage to do so.

Walt

[wmw999 2,600]

You probably know a lot of people who claim to be Christians, who you don't really accuse of holding slaves or killing homosexuals. Because they're people.

Consider that Muslims are people, too. The vast majority as as horrified at the fundamentalist terrorists as many fundamentalist Christians are at people who murder "in Christ's name."

They're people. Allowing unfamiliarity with enough individuals in a group to color your opinion before you meet those individuals is prejudice. Do you assume that most white Americans (who stand a decent chance of being Christian of some flavor) are Bible-toting hell-preaching types? You probably judge them on more familiar criteria.

It's prejudice to do otherwise.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[TomAiello 26]

Walt,

Please refer to the forum rules, specifically:

Quote

Posts that contain material that we deem to be blatantly or unnecessarily racist, sexist, homophobic, bigoted, pornographic, or otherwise offensive, may be removed.

Your post has some interesting points for discussion. It also has several "Muslim Jokes" that are in very poor taste and quite unnecessary. Please edit the post and remove the jokes. I'll give you the chance to do that yourself, but if they're still there in 6 hours (the edit timeout limit), I'll do it for you.

Thanks!

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[waltappel 1]

Quote

You probably know a lot of people who claim to be Christians, who you don't really accuse of holding slaves or killing homosexuals. Because they're people.

Yep.

Quote

Consider that Muslims are people, too. The vast majority as as horrified at the fundamentalist terrorists as many fundamentalist Christians are at people who murder "in Christ's name."

Why, then, was there not immediate and widespread condemnation of those scumbags who committed the 9/11 attacks?

Quote

They're people. Allowing unfamiliarity with enough individuals in a group to color your opinion before you meet those individuals is prejudice. Do you assume that most white Americans (who stand a decent chance of being Christian of some flavor) are Bible-toting hell-preaching types? You probably judge them on more familiar criteria.

My rant was more against Christianity and Islam in general. I don't assume either group to be comprised entirely of extremists.

My view is that these religions are used as control mechanisms and my guess is that most Christians and Muslims cling to their respective believe systems not because they deeply believe, but to "hedge their bets" in case there is a Heaven and Hell.

Walt

[waltappel 1]

Done. My apologies to the forum--I got a bit carried away. And please, no posts or PMs asking me what I deleted.

Walt

[SpeedRacer 1]

stupid beyond belief. What would bombing a Muslim holy site accomplish militarily?


It would be for mindless spite, nothing more.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

You probably know a lot of people who claim to be Christians, who you don't really accuse of holding slaves or killing homosexuals. Because they're people.

Consider that Muslims are people, too. The vast majority as as horrified at the fundamentalist terrorists as many fundamentalist Christians are at people who murder "in Christ's name."

They're people. Allowing unfamiliarity with enough individuals in a group to color your opinion before you meet those individuals is prejudice. Do you assume that most white Americans (who stand a decent chance of being Christian of some flavor) are Bible-toting hell-preaching types? You probably judge them on more familiar criteria.
It's prejudice to do otherwise.

Wendy W.

I'm confident it's only a small fraction of the Muslim faith as a whole that are causing problems. IMO, this small fraction needs to be turned out from within, and aggressively so. Also, their money backers need to be turned out, and aggressively so. The rest of the Mulsims cannot sit back and hope it goes away.

America, as a great and diverse culture of people that exercise free will and do so reasonably happily amongst ourselves, and enjoy doing so, should not tolerate helpless complaints from Wahabi extemists. If they need our help, we should give it to them, in effective form (9mms and larger). It'd be even better if our guys carried the guns and did the shooting.

We are all engines of karma

[AlexCrowley 0]

Thats a remarkably short list of sins for a healthy popular religion.

They have NOTHING on the Xtians.

http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/Bible_Studies/Sin_list_part_6.htm

Now, this is a list of ALL sins, or at least the ones that could be found listed in the Bible - given that it's only from the Bible there are bound to be a whole lot more out there in the rest of the religious canon (used by churches which didnt walk off and claim the Bible was the only holy book worth reading).


Interesting you mention slavery, given that the Bible talks about slavery but never ONCE says its a bad thing.

How did Jesus say a slave should treat his master?
- “Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward" (1 Peter 2:18). "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ" (Ephesians 6:5).

What is God's policy on physical punishment of your slave?
- “A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer” (Proverbs 29:19). “And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye’s sake. And if he smite out his manservant’s tooth, or his maidservant’s tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth’s sake” (Exodus 21:26-27).

What does God say should happen to a master who beats his slave to death?
-“And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money” (Exodus 21:20-21).

But, most importantly to this discussion:

What conduct by slaves does Jesus dislike?
“Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God” (Colossians 3:22; see also Ephesians 6:5-6). “Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things” (Titus 2:9-10).

Ok, ready for some fun?
01. Associating anything with Allah
225.

HAVING ANY GODS THAT COME BEFORE GOD
Ex 20:3; Ps 81:9; Acts 15:20
NOT TURNING AWAY FROM THOSE WHO DON’T GLORIFY JESUS
2 Tim 3:5
02. Murder
Thou shalt not kill
03. Practising magic
SORCERIES
Acts 8:11
BEING A WITCH, OR HAVING ANYTHING TO DO WITH A WITCH
Deut 18:10,11



Penalty for being a witch is death
Ex 22:18
608.

WITCHCRAFT
Gal 5:20
04. Not Praying
NOT READING THE BIBLE (DAILY)

Ps 1:2; Acts 17:11; 1Pe 2:2; 1 Tim 4:13
NOT PRAYING, PRAYERLESS
1 Sam 12:23; 1 Thes 5:17
05. Not paying Zakat
442.

NOT HELPING A POOR BROTHER
Lev 25:35-40
443.

NOT HELPING THE POOR AND NEEDY
Ezek 16:49
444.

NOT REMEMBERING THE POOR
Gal 2:10
445.

WITHHOLDING WAGES FROM THE POOR
Deut 24:15
06. Not fasting on a Day of Ramadan without excuse


07. Not performing Hajj, while being able to do so
Not really a pilgrimage aspect of Xtianity, but you could argue that anything against prayer or xtian tradition would be normal.

08. Disrespect to parents

NOT HONORING YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER
Ex 20:12; Mt 19:19
DISOBEDIENT TO PARENTS
2 Tim 3:1,2; Ro 1:30
YOUNGER, NOT SUBMITTING TO THE ELDER
1 Pe 5:5
09. Abandoning relatives
NOT HONORING ALL MEN
1 Pe 2:17

10. Fornication and Adultery
ADULTERY
Mt 19:18; Gen 39:7-9; Ex 20:14


Penalty for both involved is death
Deut 22:22; Lev 20:10-12


To look on a woman to lust is adultery
Mt 5:28; 2 Pe 2:14
11. Homosexuality(sodomy)
HOMOSEXUAL

Lev 18:22; Ro 1:24-28; 1 Cor 6:9
12. Interest(Riba)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury#Biblical_injunctions_against_Usury
Please note, the instances of biblical to koranic quotes are 3:1 (15 biblical, 5 from the koran).
ROB GOD NOT GIVING 10% PLUS OFFERINGS (CURSED)
Mal 3:8,9
NOT GIVING TITHES AND OFFERINGS (CURSED)

Mal 3:8,9; Lev 27:32; Deut 14:22

13. Wrongfully consuming the property of an orphan
OPPRESSING THE WIDOW OR FATHERLESS CHILD
Ex 22:22-24
STEALING
Ex 20:15; Mk 7:22
DEFRAUDING OTHERS
Lev 19:13; 1 Thes 4:6
14. Lying about Allah and His Messenger
DISTORTING THE WORD OF GOD (THE TRUTH)

2 Pe 3:16 NIV; Acts 20:29,30 NIV
HANDLING GOD’S WORD DECEITFULLY
2 Cor 4:2
15. Running away from the battlefield
FEAR (BEING AFRAID) BEING FEARFUL

Gal 2:12-14; 1 Jn 4:18; Rev 21:8
16. A leader's deceiving his people and being unjust to them
BEING A FALSE WITNESS
Ex 20:16; Mt 15:19; Mt 19:18
LIES, LYING
Ps 59:12; 12:2; 31:18; 58:3

17. Pride and arrogance
BEING VAIN
Ja 2:20; Titus 1:10
PRIDE (PROUD)

Ja 4:6; Ro 1:30; Pv 16:18; Ps 10:4
479.

EXALTING YOURSELF (PRIDE)
Lk 18:10-14
18. Bearing false witness
BEING A FALSE WITNESS
Ex 20:16; Mt 15:19; Mt 19:18
LIES, LYING
Ps 59:12; 12:2; 31:18; 58:3

19. Drinking Khamr (wine)
GETTING DRUNK (DRUNKEN)

Lk 12:45,46; Ro 13:13; 1 Cor 6:10
20. Gambling
GAMBLING
Lk 12:15
21. Slandering chaste women
SLANDER (BACKBITERS)

Mk 7:20-23 NIV; Ro 1:30, 2 Cor 12:20
22. Stealing from the spoils of war
Thou shalt not steal
23. Stealing
Thou shalt not steal
24. Highway Robbery
Thou shalt not steal
25. Taking false oath
A FALSE WITNESS THAT SPEAKS LIES (AN ABOMINATION TO GOD)
Pv 6:16,19; Mt 15:19; Ex 20:16

26. Oppression
OPPRESSING THE WIDOW OR FATHERLESS CHILD
Ex 22:22-24
27. Illegal gain
Thou shalt not steal, again.
28. Consuming wealth acquired unlawfully
DEFRAUDING OTHERS
Lev 19:13; 1 Thes 4:6
29. Committing suicide
Thou shalt not kill
30. Frequent lying
BEING A FALSE WITNESS
Ex 20:16; Mt 15:19; Mt 19:18
LIES, LYING
Ps 59:12; 12:2; 31:18; 58:3

31. Judging unjustly
JUDGING OTHERS (JUDGING BROTHERS IN CHRIST)
Mt 7:1-5; Ro 2:1;Ja 4:11,12
32. Giving and Accepting bribes
Proverbs 17:8; 18:16; 21:14; 28:21; 17:23 ("A wicked man receives a bribe from the bosom to pervert the ways of justice.")
33. Woman's imitating man and man's imitating woman
WEARING THE CLOTHING OF THE OPPOSITE SEX
Deut 22:5
34. Being cuckold
ADULTERY
Mt 19:18; Gen 39:7-9; Ex 20:14
35. Marrying a divorced woman in order to make her lawful for the husband
But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery" (Matthew 5:32)
36. Not protecting oneself from urine
Weird, but Xtians hate the physical body in general.

37. Showing-off
PRIDE (PROUD)

Ja 4:6; Ro 1:30; Pv 16:18; Ps 10:4
38. Learning knowledge of the religion for the sake of this world and concealing that knowledge
NOT BELIEVING ALL OF THE BIBLE (ALL OF GOD’S WORD) (FOOL)
1 Jn 5:10; Lk 24:25; Jn 8:47; 10:26; 12:48
NOT PUTTING GOD’S WORD IN YOUR HEART
Deut 6:6

39. Bertrayal of trust
IES, LYING
Ps 59:12; 12:2; 31:18; 58:3
40. Recounting favours
GIVING TO THE POOR TO BE SEEN BY MEN
Mt 6:1-4
41. Denying Allah's Decree
DENYING JESUS IS THE CHRIST (Messiah)
1 Jn 5:10,1; 1 Jn 2:22

42. Listening (to) people's private conversations
WHISPERING OR GOSSIP

Pv 16:28 NIV; Ro 1:29; 2 Cor 12:20

Alright you get the point, I'll leave the last 20 or so to anyone thats' interested.

Wow I need to get a life.

43. Carrying tales
44. Cursing
45. Breaking contracts
46. Believing in fortune-tellers and astrologers
47. A woman's bad conduct towards her husband
48. Making statues and pictures
49. Lamenting, wailing, tearing the clothing, and doing other things of this sort when an affliction befalls
50. Treating others unjustly
51. Overbearing conduct toward the wife, the servant, the weak, and animals
52. Offending one's neighbour
53. Offending and abusing Muslims
54. Offending people and having an arrogant attitude toward them
55. Trailing one's garment in pride
56. Men's wearing silk and gold
57. A slave's running away from his master
58. Slaughtering an animal which has been dedicated to anyone other than Allah
59. To knowingly ascribe one's paternity to a father other than one's own
60. Arguing and disputing violently
61. Witholding excess water
62. Giving short weight or measure
63. Feeling secure from Allah's Plan
64. Offending Allah's righteous friends
65. Not praying in congregation but praying alone without an excuse
66. Persistently missing Friday Prayers without any excuse
67. Unsurping the rights of the heir through bequests
68. Deceiving and plotting evil
69. Spying for the enemy of the Muslims
70. Cursing or insulting any of the Companiions of Allah's Messenger

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[waltappel 1]

Wow--you really do need to get a life!
Great post!!!

Walt

[Ron 10]

Quote

You probably know a lot of people who claim to be Christians, who you don't really accuse of holding slaves or killing homosexuals. Because they're people

I call those people "false Christians".

I mean how can you pay attention to only the stuff you want and ignore the stuff you don't, but still claim to be the whole thing?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[wmw999 2,600]

Ah, but Ron -- I'd bet that by your standards there are no real Christians whatsoever. Since there are internal contradictions in the Bible, it's impossible to follow all of it.

A rule book that could be followed in its entirety, with no interpretation required, would be very short indeed.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[AlexCrowley 0]

Quote

. Do you assume that most white Americans (who stand a decent chance of being Christian of some flavor) are Bible-toting hell-preaching types?.

Well, it's funny you should say that................

As a european with a somewhat christian religious background the militant extremist version of Xtianity does seem predominant here.

From personal experience I would give a 5:2 ratio of nutbag Xtians to moderate (for a european). Ironically the moderate Xtian's are both preachers.

While I realize that there must be more moderate Xtians out there than the nutbags the public perception as someone who is part of US culture is that (and pay attention here USians)

*Most american christians are fundamental extremists who hate homos, love war and killing, and preach anger and intolerance, hellfire and brimstone*

It is the vocal minority which sets the tone, and the public tone of US Christianity is one of religious intolerance and bigotry justified by using the KJV bible by judicious cherry picking of quotes to backup their position - by cherry picking I mean using old testament justifications while ignoring laws from the same book which would be considered cruel or unenlightened in the 20th century. Even more ironically is the fact that these old testament justifications are in direct opposition to the example set by Jesus - which might be a hint as to why he was crucified, in my bible the zealots and lawkeepers hated him because of his breaking of Jewish law when he felt it was obsolete *and* having the audacity to directly contradict the law when it contradicted Jesus (and in the Xtian mythos God's) interpretation of what is right and wrong.

Lets start small: Many Christians will justify their bigoted use of the Old Testament by quoting The Sermon on the Mount:

"Matthew|5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
MatthewMatthew|5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. "

Ok fair enough, that gives us an eye for an eye and 'god hates fags' yadda yadda.....but a little further down the page, during the same Sermon on the Mount......

Matthew|5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Matthew|5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

and
Matthew|5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Matthew|5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Oh, and while we're on the 'God Hates Fags' thing: "Samuel-2: 1:26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." i'm assuming God didnt mind have much issue with the situation (unlike Jonathon's father, who at Sam 1 20:24-30 goes absolutely balistic at Jonathon for being gay). Now there are arguments against that interpretation (and some strong evidence FOR the argument, such as the same hebrew words used in this book to describe David and Jonathon's relationship (delighted=châphèts=Gen 34:19, talks about desiring a woman sexually, and the fact they go to David's house in the woods for a little afternoon delight).

I'm sure there are biblical scholars who could out-talk me and give me historical, sociological and theological arguments to educate me in the subtleties of what the bible REALLY meant to say, and why exactly I'm wrong.

The academic reality (while of interest to me) is not the point of my comment. The reality on the ground is that there is a country with a lot of Christians who read the bible daily and interpret it as they read it, they dont have a background in hebrew or ancient greek history or language, or the reasons why certain trends occur at different times within the biblical timeline.

This lack of critical thought and blind acceptance allows for "cognitive dissonance" on a massive scale. Once again we run smack into ideological thinking transcending even the physical proofs of the religion AND the "rules" for belief.

Basic flow:

1. The Bible is the Word of God
2. Jesus is the Messiah, God made flesh, the son of God.
3. Without Jesus there is no Christianity
4. Jesus said "Love one another"
5. Jesus said "turn the other cheek"
6. Jesus said "rather than Thou Shalt Not Kill I say If you are ANGRY enough to think about violence it is against God"
7. Jesus re-statement of God's law was part of the Messianic prophecy (Jeremiah 31:31) .
8. If Jesus cannot rewrite law then he is not the Messiah
9. Christians purposefully reduce the importance of Christ's Sermon on the Mount by quoting biblical passages from later books to re-instate the 10 commandments and other Jewish law..........does this seem a little presumptuous to anyone else but me? "I think what God meant to say was ...............".

If I go to a seminar to see "Famous religious Dude A", and there are other people on the same show, I may listen to FRD B, but I'm going to pay more attention to Dude A, especially if I think he's the son of God.

My personal viewpoint is that I find the New Testament to contain a lot of very useful philosophys and find myself agreeing with a lot of it up until Acts.
In my opinion, Paul destroyed christianity as it was intended to be by putting his own societal biases before the word, and created laws, rules and restrictions of the kind that Jesus actively refuted and discarded during his lifetime.

My sci-fi special thought: What if.........we know that Saul persecuted Christians, maybe the Romans realized that they could never shut down Christianity by killing them, perhaps Paul was simply an agent sent to pervert the course of Christianity. It's his work that starts telling teh various churches that they are sinning against god (according to the records available), he's the one that sets up rules that are in direct scriptural conflict with the teachings of Jesus. Acceptance of Paul's vision led the way to the destruction of many different Christian sects with opposite opinions to his (gnosticism anyone?). Eh, I said it was sci-fi, but it would be one hell of a con to pull off.

Ok, I've gone on long enough.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Ron 10]

Quote

Ah, but Ron -- I'd bet that by your standards there are no real Christians whatsoever

Not my Standards. The Bible's standards.

How can you claim to be something basied on a book, but ignore the parts of the book you don't like?

Quote

A rule book that could be followed in its entirety, with no interpretation required, would be very short indeed.

Some "rules" spell things out very clearly. To ignore those "rules" just cause ya want to....Clearly shows you are not what you claim.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[markd_nscr986 0]

An interesting poll........

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/4742422/detail.html

with revealing results

I didnt think it would be so lop-sided

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[Steel 0]

Quote

An interesting poll........

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/4742422/detail.html

with revealing results

I didnt think it would be so lop-sided

Just goes to prove that people in general are not as clueless as they would have you think. They are just afraid to say what they really believe because they fear being witch-hunted by the politically correct wacko's.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[waltappel 1]

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An interesting poll........

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/4742422/detail.html

with revealing results

I didnt think it would be so lop-sided

Very interesting for sure! I am shocked that it is so lopsided. Too bad they didn't include questions that indicate the respondants' reasoning.

Walt

[Ron 10]

While I don't agree with bombing holy sites unless there are being used as a military stronghold, base, storage, or hiding place....

This is interesting:

"Asked whether he was concerned about angering terrorists, Tancredo said, "You've got people telling us that they're going to bomb our cities and kill however many millions of people that they can. You're telling me there's something more hostile than that?"

Also this is VERY true "He also said he did not intend to offend moderate Muslims, whom he calls the "best hope" of bringing terrorists to justice."

Bill Mitchell had a cartoon about this. (attached)
The Text (which I guess is not showing up says:

"9 out of 10 Muslims abhor Isamlist terrorism unfortunatly, 9 out of 10 also remian silent about the attacks"

If the Muslims want to not be seen as Violent...Then they need to turn against the extremists.

Some are, but more need to.

Just like I would turn in a "Christian" that bombed an abortion clinic.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pajarito 0]

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Interesting you mention slavery, given that the Bible talks about slavery but never ONCE says its a bad thing.

Why is slavery permitted in the Bible?

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Slavery was permitted in the Bible because of sin in the world. It existed before the Jews were formed as a nation and it existed after Israel was conquered. God allows many things to happen in the world such as storms, famine, murder, etc. Slavery, like divorce, is not preferred by God. Instead, it is allowed. Where many nations treated their slaves very badly, the Bible gave many rights and privileges to slaves. So, even though it isn't the best way to deal with people, because God has allowed man freedom, slavery then exists. God instructed the Israelites to treat them properly.

Also, I’ve posted this several times before but one must keep in mind the differences in the laws included in the Bible. The Bible doesn’t only contain God’s moral code to follow. It also contains a history of the Nation of Israel.

The commands of the Old Testament are divided generally into moral law, ceremonial law and civil law. The moral law (e.g. the 10 commandments) remains in effect and few people would question that. The ceremonial law (sacrificing 2 oxen, etc.) was fulfilled in Jesus' sacrificial death and the New Testament teaches that it is not binding anymore. The civil law (stoning for adultery, etc.) was the law of the nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and is not the civil law of any other nation.

The danger of posting a laundry list of laws that you’ve come up with to criticize the Bible is that each one of them isn’t put in their proper context. Laws of the Nation of Israel aren’t necessarily those commanded by God.

[Steel 0]

Since you love to bash Christianity and I like actual factual history. Here are some time lines relating to religion in general. I know you will go right around the facts but others reading might give some thought to when specific religions first started out and compare that to when those very same religions were causing unrest in the world. http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20011106.html

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[AlexCrowley 0]

Parajito, you may have missed the part where I tackle this exact subject, that of the religious historian who knows the context.

The vast majority of Christians do not know that context, and only believe what they read in the Bible without an understanding of it's compilation or the various schools of thought and arguments for and against each entry (I'm not saying I have either, only that I have an awareness of them).

My original laundry list was in reply to another laundry list, my point was simply to reduce a religion that many on this board are familiar with to a simple list of rules in the same way Islam was being demonstrated to people. In addition, it is disengenous to claim that the Bible quotes both law and history and the two should not be confused when religious folk of every stripe use BOTH to justify their ideology.

As for the 3 sections of the law, it has always seemed to me that Jesus was trying to point out that the moral laws were more important and laid out some ground rules with which to interpret them. There are examples of Jesus breaking civil and ceremonial law in the Gospels, as an educated man such as yourself would already know.

Your 'why is slavery permitted in the Bible' link provides no information except 'because people sin'. I have to disagree with you.

From the information on that page we are to believe that Hebrews had special status, because after 6 years they would be free, what of any other race? where is this any different than any other form of slavery where a 'master race' has more rights than the under races.

Pedarasts are spoken out against, many sins of property are spoken out against. Jesus himself supports the position of the slave as property. The existence of sin in the world would not seem to justify the acceptance of slavery.

The existence of slavery both before and after this period is inconsequential and has no bearing on the topic at hand, which is that the Old and New Testament specifically supports slavery and a slaves position as property. A position that most christians on the planet in the 21st century think as outdated. Please feel free to argue that point, but once again I am forced to point out that in my post above I stated that I am discussing ordinary christians who read the book as the word of god without any additional context or historical knowledge.

If we are to agree that slavery is an outdated concept that no longer fits the culture or the times then I would suggest that it also brings other moral and cultural 'laws' of the Old and New testaments into question. I dont ask this as a trap, but it would seem to be incredibly hypocritical to accept some laws yet reject others simply because we've changed. Or is this really an area of cognitive dissonance for certain christians? OR maybe I'm just crazy and even the atheists and agnostics think I've lost it.

Please understand, I was not criticising the Bible, only the ignorance of a portion of it's adherents, and my own personal opinion regarding the content in the NT. I am neither bashing Christianity as a whole, only a "small vocal minority" as stated in my original post.

My apologies if I managed to hit a nerve with some people here, I dont feel I am in any position to bash God, only to discuss opinions and try to get some resolution to my own questions. If the concept of discussing those issues is offensive then I apologize and ask your forgiveness, as it would appear to be a central theme of your religion.

I hope that sorta clears things up for a real discussion.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.