Food for thought

[waltappel 1]

I think what Bill was saying that when you strip away the cultural veneer, people all over the world pretty much want the same thing--food, shelter, and things that will give them the level of comfortable living that they desire.

I don't think there is much arguing with that but please do respond if you disagree. I find your posts very interesting reading and I do not mean that in any kind of sarcastic way.

Walt

[wmw999 2,600]

You can only completely define human intelligence if you are the sole arbiter of what makes it up. One can only be objective if one can include the possibility of being wrong in one's preconceptions.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Steel 0]

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I think what Bill was saying that when you strip away the cultural veneer, people all over the world pretty much want the same thing--food, shelter, and things that will give them the level of comfortable living that they desire.

I don't think there is much arguing with that but please do respond if you disagree. I find your posts very interesting reading and I do not mean that in any kind of sarcastic way.

Walt

No, when you put it that way I agree. I don't believe Arabs are genetically more violent. I think their testosterone levels are signficantly higher than the Northern Europeans, just like the Spanish and the Italians. For that reason, I think they may be slightly more prone to agression. But the vicious killing machines that we see beheading people and blowing up train stations, I attribute to the Islamic faith not the Arab blood lines. Bill Von on the other hand goes much further with his belief. Despite thousands of years of history proving otherwise he wishes to believe that Islam is and always has been a religion of peace.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Thankfully I believe that people with a Spanish background on average have the IQ of a field tomato....now if you can find me a field tomato with a proven lower IQ I will change my mind.....

[Steel 0]

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You can only completely define human intelligence if you are the sole arbiter of what makes it up. One can only be objective if one can include the possibility of being wrong in one's preconceptions.

Wendy W.

I have left open the possibility of being wrong and have changed my mind in the past when I saw contradicting evidence. I have already cited the Muslim/Jewish example before. I will cite it again. When I was in college, I had two good freinds that I met in computer classes. One was Israeli and the other was Jordanian/Palestinian. Being as I was good freinds with both of them, they confided in me and let me know how they really felt. They Israeli hated the Muslims with a passion. I remember at the time that they killed Yersak Rabin, that they were saying he was a peaceful man, my Israeli freind said what a crock? He knew better when he was younge he took out many Muslims. He would always say the U.S. should never stand in the way of Israel because every terrorist we kill is one less that you have to deal with. My Palestinian freind proclaimed that Jews were the worst thing ever created on this earth. He spoke of them raiding villages and so on, etc. At the time, I would say, I don't know, I think its between these two cultures. I am an outsider so I will just stay neutral. Well 9/11 woke many of us up, including myself. Then I started realizing the ancient history like those bastards invading Spain was like all other history, repeating itself over and over again. Now I changed my mind, I accept I was wrong before and I do pick a side. I am with the Israelis.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[billvon 3,131]

>Bill Von on the other hand goes much further with his belief. Despite
> thousands of years of history proving otherwise he wishes to believe
> that Islam is and always has been a religion of peace.

Islam is a religion of peace and a religion of violence. Christianity is a religion of peace and a religion of violence. Any religion can be used by anyone to do anything, which is why religion is both good and bad. Pope Urban II could have taught Saddam Hussein a few tricks; he started religious wars and practiced genocide that makes Hussein look like an amateur.

That does not mean that eleventh century christians were evil, any more than twentieth century muslims are evil. Back then, Urban II twisted a religion into a weapon of war. Nowadays, Bin Laden is doing the same thing.

The Crusades were born of hatred and bigotry. You can see that same sort of hatred today in Al Qaeda. I think we should aspire to be better than that.

[Steel 0]

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Thankfully I believe that people with a Spanish background on average have the IQ of a field tomato....now if you can find me a field tomato with a proven lower IQ I will change my mind.....

And I believe Canadian liberals talk so much jibberish that its best ignored. I think that too reflects their intelligence. However, I am responding to you so what does that say about me.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Steel 0]

The Crusades were born of hatred and bigotry. You can see that same sort of hatred today in Al Qaeda. I think we should aspire to be better than that.
===============================
Here we go again attacking the Crusades. Its seems like its easy because if you repeat it enough times the ignorant can be fooled. The Crusades were created to drive Muslims out of Europe. THEY had invaded. As it continued they went all the way to Jerusalem but there were Muslims fighting them their as well. Do you think that its in any way realistic to expect the Europeans in the Eleventh century to take the higher road. Hell, they had been invaded by Muslims. The Crusades was a response to Muslim aggression.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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And I believe Canadian liberals talk so much jibberish that its best ignored.

I agree.....but then I am a member of the Canadian Conservative party.....

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Here we go again attacking the Crusades. Its seems like its easy because if you repeat it enough times the ignorant can be fooled. The Crusades were created to drive Muslims out of Europe. THEY had invaded.

So you are okay with the militants fighting the US invasion of Iraq then.....

[billvon 3,131]

>The Crusades was a response to Muslim aggression.

And the insurgency in Iraq is a response to US aggression. And the Palestinian attacks are a response to Israel's invasion of their land, which used to be Jewish, which used to be Arab. Doesn't make any of those actions right.

You raise a few interesting points, but defending the Crusades makes about as much sense as defending Al Qaeda.

[Steel 0]

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>The Crusades was a response to Muslim aggression.

And the insurgency in Iraq is a response to US aggression. And the Palestinian attacks are a response to Israel's invasion of their land, which used to be Jewish, which used to be Arab. Doesn't make any of those actions right.

You raise a few interesting points, but defending the Crusades makes about as much sense as defending Al Qaeda.

Saddam was clearly posing a threat to the U.S., your hero Bill Clinton even said that. Most if not all of the insurgents in Iraq are motivated by Islam, coming in even from other countries. These are the same people who funded the World trade center attacks, ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS.
Before talking about Palistine and Israel it important to read about the history of Jerusalem. http://www.centuryone.com/hstjrslm.html and don't forget to take into account that during most of the history of this city there was no Islamic faith. The Jews were the first one's to claim this as a holy site. It almost suggests that the Muslims called it a holy site only so that it would inspire their followers to fight the Jews, the Infidels. I notice you even said used to be Jewish which used to be Arab (not Muslim). If it was just a city well there is a world full of cities. But it wasn't, it was the Jewish holy land, which therefore became the Christian holy land, since the Christian faith came out of the Jewish faith. Still, I don't know of any historical events where the Christians were driving the Jews out of Jerusalem.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[AlexCrowley 0]

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Before talking about Palistine and Israel it important to read about the history of Jerusalem. http://www.centuryone.com/hstjrslm.html and don't forget to take into account that during most of the history of this city there was no Islamic faith. The Jews were the first one's to claim this as a holy site. It almost suggests that the Muslims called it a holy site only so that it would inspire their followers to fight the Jews, the Infidels. .

Steel, this paragraph alone illustrates the depths of your ignorance on the subject and seriously undermines any credibility the rest of your argument may have carried.

Historically, biologically, sociologically and theologically your entire argument is based on faulty data, hearsay, rabid right-wing radio hosts and, quite possibly, the ignorant ramblings of a drugged horse - at least I hope so because there's really no excuse for the statements your making if you're a fully functional human who doesnt have to be reminded to breathe every few seconds.

You know, I'm always the person who says the wrong thing at the wrong time. Steel, you didnt choose that name because you have to use an Iron Lung, right? That'd be just my luck.

Again.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Steel 0]

Steel, this paragraph alone illustrates the depths of your ignorance on the subject and seriously undermines any credibility the rest of your argument may have carried.
==============================
For a second there, I actually doubted myself and thought I might have said something inaccurate. But as I continued to read your entire post and found absolutely no counter arguements, even no statements at all, I realized you were just wanting to argue, so I laugh and YOUR blatant ignorance. lol

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[billvon 3,131]

>Saddam was clearly posing a threat to the U.S. . . .

Yes; I recall all the bombs he dropped on Washington DC. Good thing we intercepted his ICBM's before they could detonate over LA.

>Most if not all of the insurgents in Iraq are motivated by Islam,
>coming in even from other countries. These are the same people
>who funded the World trade center attacks, ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS.

That makes as much sense as saying that the US and Al Qaeda are headed by exactly the same people, RELIGIOUS WHITE MEN. It's all the fault of whites! Down with white men!

[Steel 0]

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>

That makes as much sense as saying that the US and Al Qaeda are headed by exactly the same people, RELIGIOUS WHITE MEN. It's all the fault of whites! Down with white men!

Its not that its at all difficult to counter that arguement, its that I have done so time after time and yet you continue to think that way. Anyway, I have some work to do here. I'll let somebody else counter it.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[AlexCrowley 0]

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Steel, this paragraph alone illustrates the depths of your ignorance on the subject and seriously undermines any credibility the rest of your argument may have carried.
==============================
For a second there, I actually doubted myself and thought I might have said something inaccurate. l

Doubt is good, but I'm not going to tell you any additional facts because from your statements you've already set your mind to something and you'll be the only one to change that.

First suggestion: read about the formation of Islam and it's very early history. Too broad? Pay attention to the reasons WHY Islam was formed and early methods of worship.

After that we can move foward chronologically and try fixing the other historical errors in your other statements.

I'm sorry that you take my comments for merely being argumentative, they were meant to be insults towards someone I percieved to be an ignorant bigot with an unwillingness to question their own preconcieved notions.

I've found that telling someone that they dont have a sense of humor gets an overly rational explanation to explain the reasons for the behaviors. I have also noticed the same over rationalizing by racists and bigots. Generally trying to discuss a racist's erroneous justifications for their bigotry is as difficult as discussing evolutionary science with christian who believes in creationism - an ability to ignore vast amounts of hard data while clinging to psuedo facts put forward by biased and unqualified "experts" that happen to have the same ideology as the believer.

So Steel, let me know, if you're interested in discussing this rationally using facts and documented history and I'm all for it. If you wish to cling to the frame of mind that you've exhibited throughout this thread - ie, falsehoods, racist statements, pseudo-science etc, then I respectfully withdraw from the discussion and let others continue the debate.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[billvon 3,131]

>so I laugh and YOUR blatant ignorance. lol

Could both of you stop calling each other names?

[Steel 0]

As I said before I don't have time so I will make this brief. First you have still not brought forth any facts. You have only offended, first by calling ignorant, then by calling bigot or racist. You even started by question an opinion. When a statement starts with the words "I think" it means, I don't know but this is what logical reasoning tells me. The reality is that my statements may upset you but its only because the truth hurts. Again to recap. I don't know why Islam was founded and the truth is I don't care. What I do know is that Jerusalem was a holy site for the Jews and Christians long before there was an Islam. That is a fact. Now if you want to read some more fact read the link I posted on the history of Jerusalem. I have got to get back to work.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Casurf1978 0]

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Here we go again attacking the Crusades. Its seems like its easy because if you repeat it enough times the ignorant can be fooled. The Crusades were created to drive Muslims out of Europe. THEY had invaded

Steel, I think you really, really need to read up on your history. The muslims in Jerusalem did not pose such a huge threat as you make them out to be until 1040 when the Turks overan the Arabs. The real threat came from the Moors until Charles Martel defeated them in 734. If Martel had fallen Islam would've spread all throughout Europe. Not only did Martel defeat them (and save christianity) but he started to drive them out.

[Steel 0]

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Here we go again attacking the Crusades. Its seems like its easy because if you repeat it enough times the ignorant can be fooled. The Crusades were created to drive Muslims out of Europe. THEY had invaded

Steel, I think you really, really need to read up on your history. The muslims in Jerusalem did not pose such a huge threat as you make them out to be until 1040 when the Turks overan the Arabs. The real threat came from the Moors until Charles Martel defeated them in 734. If Martel had fallen Islam would've spread all throughout Europe. Not only did Martel defeat them (and save christianity) but he started to drive them out.

First I want to say I appreciate you disscussing facts and not making pointless personal attacks.
Now to address your statement, I did not say that the threat to Europe was the Muslims in Jerusalem. I said the Crusades started were to drive Muslims out of Europe. Also, to say that it all ended in 734 because of Martel is inaccurate. Spain had to fight the Muslims from Morroco for over 700 years to finally get them the hell out of Spain. A long time ago, I posted a link with all the dates of all the battles that it took to reclaim Spain. It took over 700 years.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Frenchy68 0]

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The Crusades were created to drive Muslims out of Europe

That's when Palestine was part of the European Continent, I gather.
But the crusaders, these lazy bastards, instead moved Jerusalem out of Europe so they could claim Mission Accomplished!

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Steel 0]

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I read your timeline (which lists dates and vague descriptions of events) and saw that Jerusalem was founded in 3500BCE, around the same time as the first Mesopotamian city states...so I looked that up to learn by whom it was founded. It was founded by an ancient tribe of Canaanites. Jerusalem was not claimed as a holy city by the Jews until King David established it as such in 1003, and he did so by conquering the folks who already lived there. So, I'm not seeing how that's any more of a valid claim to legitimacy than the modern arguments on either side...
but had this response....


Just my two cents, with a little history thrown in.

I am glad to see people are thinking here. First lets not forget that the date is 1003 BC, meaning 3000 years ago. Its not so much a claim at legitimacy of the ownership of the land. In fact its not. It was built by Arabs. But those Arabs were not Muslims. The Jews were the first ones who said that this was the holy land. That is my point. Picture this.
I say Dallas is a holy land and start a religion that believes that. I did not build Dallas but nobody else thinks of it as anything other than a city, a place to live.
Then somebody comes along and branches out a religion off mine also claim it as a holy land. But the followers manage to live peacefully there with both religions.
Then some pyscho descendant of the people who actually built Dallas claims it as a holy land. But rather than blend in peacefully he starts murdering followers of both of the other religions and continues to do so for thousands of years, meanwhile he claims to be a from a religion of peace. Now how does that sound?

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[kallend 2,175]

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The Crusades were born of hatred and bigotry. You can see that same sort of hatred today in Al Qaeda. I think we should aspire to be better than that.
===============================
Here we go again attacking the Crusades. Its seems like its easy because if you repeat it enough times the ignorant can be fooled. The Crusades were created to drive Muslims out of Europe. THEY had invaded. As it continued they went all the way to Jerusalem but there were Muslims fighting them their as well. Do you think that its in any way realistic to expect the Europeans in the Eleventh century to take the higher road. Hell, they had been invaded by Muslims. The Crusades was a response to Muslim aggression.

And that pinnacle of Christian behavior, the Inquisition? How will you blame that on Islam?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Steel 0]

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The Crusades were born of hatred and bigotry. You can see that same sort of hatred today in Al Qaeda. I think we should aspire to be better than that.
===============================
Here we go again attacking the Crusades. Its seems like its easy because if you repeat it enough times the ignorant can be fooled. The Crusades were created to drive Muslims out of Europe. THEY had invaded. As it continued they went all the way to Jerusalem but there were Muslims fighting them their as well. Do you think that its in any way realistic to expect the Europeans in the Eleventh century to take the higher road. Hell, they had been invaded by Muslims. The Crusades was a response to Muslim aggression.

And that pinnacle of Christian behavior, the Inquisition? How will you blame that on Islam?

Actually I have not read up enough on the Inquisition to comment on that as of yet. But right now what I need to do is figure out if all the patches on Cincinati Bell Wireless's SGSN match all the patches on their SDS server.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.