Tink1717 2 #26 July 17, 2005 Faith is believing what you know isn't so. - Mark Twain.Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off. -The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!) AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,577 #27 July 17, 2005 QuoteThe difference is the eye-witness martyrs of the New Testament saw what they saw, were threatened with their lives if they continued to proclaim it, and were true to what they spoke even as some of them were tortured and crucified upside down until death. I cannot reasonably believe that any human being could endure that (especially all but one of them) just to perpetuate a false religion for their own purposes. I'm not disputing that they thought they were right, I'm sure that they fully believed that Jesus was the son of god. I'm also sure that they were wrong. The bottom line is that people are very impressionable. How many people do you know who have seen a ghost, or spoken to dead friends at seances. How many people do you know who firmly believe that David Blaine can throw a card through a pane of glass and actually levitate. If you believe the disciples were correct because they were convinced that they saw divine power then you also have to believe the first Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists etc also saw real manifestations of that power.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,577 #28 July 17, 2005 QuoteI like your explanation too. Thanks. I've just thought about it a bit though and I think yours is better. My explanation (fear of death/ the unknown) is the main reason for faith, but your theory (someone to blame) is a better explanation for structured religion. Faith being belief in a higher power/plane of existence, Religion being "we must pray/ sacrifice more to god or our crops will fail again this year".Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alias 0 #29 July 17, 2005 QuoteQuotereligion=a belief for people to either blame something on or take the credit for.. Religion is false hope. Religion is the consequence of fear of death. Can't put it any more simply than that. It is possible to embrace the Christian religion, it's teachings and moral lessons, without taking the bible as a literal application. Seems to be a healthy philosophy to follow - the majority is based on love. I know many who contribute much to thier communities....in the name of religion. Not everyone that has "faith" is a bible thumping tard afraid of death Carpe Diem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #30 July 17, 2005 QuoteSeems to be a healthy philosophy to follow - Most people select a religious sect that already agrees with their philosophy. Then, the only follow the tenets that they agree on. How many Catholics take the pill ? How many Baptists drink alchohol ? It seems that most attend for social reasons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,577 #31 July 17, 2005 QuoteI know many who contribute much to thier communities....in the name of religion. Not everyone that has "faith" is a bible thumping tard afraid of death I wrote nothing about the bible, nor thumpers of it, nor about the teachings of christianity. But seeing as you've brought it up my position is that to get to the 'good' teachings of the bible you must first use common sense and your moral compass to cut out the 'bad' teachings. Therefore why not get rid of the middle man and just do what is right anyway? Besides, it's not like the bible was the first moral code ever published.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #32 July 17, 2005 QuoteBesides, it's not like the bible was the first moral code ever published. Thou shall not murder. Check. Thou shall not steal. Check. . . . Maybe there should be a group email, in the event that new material emerges. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #33 July 17, 2005 QuoteQuoteSeems to be a healthy philosophy to follow - Most people select a religious sect that already agrees with their philosophy. see my sig line.. repeated below because it will change eventually... If triangles had a God, he would have three sides.. God did not create man in his image, but Man creates his vision of divinity that way.... God is far more than any cultural mythos...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #34 July 17, 2005 QuoteI'm not disputing that they thought they were right, I'm sure that they fully believed that Jesus was the son of god. I'm also sure that they were wrong. The bottom line is that people are very impressionable. How many people do you know who have seen a ghost, or spoken to dead friends at seances. How many people do you know who firmly believe that David Blaine can throw a card through a pane of glass and actually levitate. If you believe the disciples were correct because they were convinced that they saw divine power then you also have to believe the first Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists etc also saw real manifestations of that power. How are you so sure they were wrong? I don’t think you’re putting the circumstances all together. A follower of a cult leader might be brainwashed into fully believing that he/she should drink the red cool-aid and catch a ride on a comet to meet up with space aliens. A Muslim terrorist may fully believe that God wants him to blow himself up on a bus also killing everyone else on it. But they didn’t actually see for themselves proof validating their cause. If they did, they were probably insane and delusional. Too many people saw the same thing happen in the case of the resurrection. There’s also no evidence to show that they were insane and no reason to believe, based on their own willingness to die horrible deaths, they were liars trying to mislead the people and create some religion for their own personal agendas. No other religion can claim the number of validating sources that Christianity can. It’s one thing when one person was involved in witnessing an event. He might be lying. He may be insane. He may be telling the truth. It still isn’t very credible with only one source. When many trusted and knowledgeable people can validate what others are saying about an event, one is compelled to pay closer attention to what they are saying. We believe events happened in history based on the eyewitness testimony of others all the time. There is no reason why the evidence proposed in the Gospels of the New Testament should be treated any differently just because it hits a nerve with so many people. It reveals information that many people simply choose not to hear. That’s because it convicts us of our wrongs. We don’t want to hear that. We want to live our lives any way we want. It’s called pride and selfishness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #35 July 17, 2005 Quote Too many people saw the same thing happen in the case of the resurrection. There’s also no evidence to show that they were insane and no reason to believe, based on their own willingness to die horrible deaths, they were liars trying to mislead not true. a handful of accounts, all written FAR after the fact (and very possibly, all plagarized from a single source document) all written by believers, by the faithful of a developing religion, to CLAIM that these events happened as they describe.. but the fact is there are NO objective accounts, NO third party sources that back the Gospel's stories as fact, and very very little archeological evidence to support anything other than the basic cultural circumstances recounted.. no matter how often Christians make the same ridiculous appeal as 'history' and if dying for your belief is an indication of Truth, then the extremists Muslims are winning the 'Truth' fight atm...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KidWicked 0 #36 July 17, 2005 QuoteGod will not answer prayer unless the prayer is asked in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ. God does not answer all prayers, but He surely does answer prayers.Absolutely. God will also NOT answer prayers of people who ask something but are ignoring His commanments, and living willfully in a sinful manner. You cannot have it both ways. Either you follow Satan, and your prayers are not worth the time it took to make them,........ or you follow Christ, and your prayers ARE heard, and answered according to God's infinite goodness, as to what He knows is best for you and the situation. His wisdom and understanding are soooooo far above ours, He does always what He knows is in our best interests. Most people use God like a spare tire....only when they have a big problem, and once the problem is over, they toss God aside for the things of the world...until the next problem, then they haul their version of God down off the shelf, and try to get His support and co-operation for the problem at hand. SORRY...but it won't work that way. Not ever. And ......God cares about everyone. They don't care for Him, because to follow Him, they would have to change their sinful lifestyle...and they aren't willing to do that. I really enjoy reading your posts more than anyone else on this forum.Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #37 July 17, 2005 QuoteQuote Too many people saw the same thing happen in the case of the resurrection. There’s also no evidence to show that they were insane and no reason to believe, based on their own willingness to die horrible deaths, they were liars trying to mislead Quotenot true. a handful of accounts, all written FAR after the fact (and very possibly, all plagarized from a single source document) all written by believers, by the faithful of a developing religion, to CLAIM that these events happened as they describe.. but the fact is there are NO objective accounts, NO third party sources that back the Gospel's stories as fact, and very very little archeological evidence to support anything other than the basic cultural circumstances recounted.. no matter how often Christians make the same ridiculous appeal as 'history' Non-biblical Accounts of the Resurrection Regarding the Quotes from the Historian Josephus about Jesus The Trial of Jesus: An Account Josephus, a Jewish historian writes in the 80’s or early 90’s: QuoteAbout the same time there lived Jesus, a wise man for he was a performer of marvelous feats and a teacher of such men who received the truth with pleasure. He attracted many Jews and many Greeks. He was called the Christ. Pilate sentenced him to die on the cross, having been urged to do so by the noblest of our citizens; but those who loved him at the first did not give up their affection for him. And the tribe of the Christians, who are named after him, have not disappeared to this day. Tacitus, a late 1st century Roman historian writes: Quote Christus [Jesus], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, and the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Quoteand if dying for your belief is an indication of Truth, then the extremists Muslims are winning the 'Truth' fight atm... I don’t think you’re reading all I’m posting. There’s a lot more to it than just dying for a belief. If that was all there was to it, you’d have a good point. I made that point in an earlier post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,577 #38 July 17, 2005 You've talked about how so many people witnessed Jesus acts they must be telling the truth, well how many people saw the priestess of Delphi recieve the predictions of Apollo? Is Apollo real? Thousands of people have witnessed evangelical ministers cure sick people, do you believe all the ministers were imbued with divine power? Everything you've said so far just seems to read as 'But those other guys were all wrong, it was different this time because they were right.' Also QuoteChristus [Jesus], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, and the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. So? At the time Tacitus was writing Christianity was a fast growing religion, and the first persecutions of Christians had already taken place- of course he's going to note Jesus death. He says nothing about any miracles though. Why did you include it, I don't think anyone is disputing the existence of a man called Jesus. You'll note he also calls Christianity 'shameful' and 'evil'.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StreetScooby 5 #39 July 18, 2005 Jesus is a name, thus a noun. So is Mohammed(sp?) A powerful noun butno the lest Buddah, and many more. They are all sons of god, as are we. I was raised in a hard-core fundamentalist church (one step above Pentacostal) in the deep south, saved when I ws 12. Wanted to become a southern bapstist precher when I was 16. I lived that life fully,constonatly waiting for the second comoing of Christ. BTW - don't handle the snakes uness the ether is working College taught me the first of of thermo, and _that_ made wasy too mch sense. At at about this time, FEEL in love with a Catholic gird. Her morthe farbde me tos ee her. Took about 3 years to reconcile the two (God, thero), but I managed it. Lots of everny _real_ reserviuos out that that our formal hyics don't appcet. Dosn't make the any less real.. Ended up voted with my feet regarding relgion. Then, happend to come acroos a guy name Hunter S. Thompson. His writings touched me in way that I couldn't never have dremed out. Ended up traveling the world, wanyitng to the see rainbow first hand. At it's there. big time. You can't alway see it every dat, but's still there. Good alwasy maeks a rainbow. Just because you can't see it don't mean it's not there.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #40 July 18, 2005 i wonder if you really read the text of links you've posted.. they admit both the lack of primary sources, the lack of outside evidence, and then still try to use the Gospels to assert why such evidence doenst exist.. blind faith is such a scary thing..it creates the exact same type of mindset we are fighting against... those who are willing to believe anything their religion tells them with no evidence at all...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #41 July 18, 2005 Quote... those who are willing to believe anything their religion tells them with no evidence at all... I think in general people are only "willing" to believe such things with "no evidence at all" when those things pretty much go along with their own underlying beliefs. For example, I expect that if "his religion" told a devout christian in the USA that child molestation was a good thing, he'd be unlikely to accept that on blind faith.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 2 #42 July 18, 2005 QuoteQuote... those who are willing to believe anything their religion tells them with no evidence at all... I think in general people are only "willing" to believe such things with "no evidence at all" when those things pretty much go along with their own underlying beliefs. For example, I expect that if "his religion" told a devout christian in the USA that child molestation was a good thing, he'd be unlikely to accept that on blind faith. And yet, if "your religion" does tell you to do things that you would not normally want to do, that would make it more likely that there was real entity to it external to yourself. That's why the story of God commanding Abraham to kill his son is so powerful. On the other hand, if "your religion" always tells you to do things that you would normally believe, it's very hard to prove empirically that "your religion" is not just an extension of your own thoughts and feelings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuteless 1 #43 July 18, 2005 There are many many people who use DZ.Com Forums to state their belief in things that they know nothing about. Most have never read or studied in depth the mysteries of God that are found in His WORD, and that is a terrible loss of a great opportunity. It is one thing to read the printed words, but there are many thousands of things that are hidden from immediate view, and unless one takes the time to study, and as Christ said "Search the Scriptures" those hidden things will remain hidden, and the "reader" will have missed the opportunity to Spiritually understand what God has put before him. The scriptures were written by 41 writers over a 1500 years period, and to REALLY KNOW the Divine way in which they came together in 1611 A.D., would make your head spin. Now before anyone says that the Bible was simply written by men" in one sense that is true, but only by Holy men as they were directed by the Holy Spirit of God. They never put a single word in their writings without God's direction, and God brought those writings to a Divine conclusion in 1611, in London England, the center of the world, so His Divine WORDwould go to the four corners of the word. There are 791,328 words in the Authorized King James version, and not a single letter out of place. The New Intnl Version, and all others are nothing but perversions, done for financial gain, and published in Grand Rapids Michigan USA...the center of nothing, and that is the value of those publications. For some people to say the Bible is lies is totally wronmg. God CANNOT lie, for if He could, then he would not be the total TRUTH, and Jesus, the Christ of God, said, "I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE....NO MAN cometh to the Father...BUT BY ME (Jesus). If God wasnt total truth, then everything Jesus said would be suspect to being a lie, and if so, then Jesus could not be the Saviour of the World...and that is EXACTLY what He is. He is the CHRIST of God, (Christ is Greek for Messiah) and Jesus IS the Messiah. As for my friend Christel, I can see you have been hurt by the tragic loss of your husband. I can't say he was saved by the blood of Christ, only Jesus knowns that answer,but if I spoke to you for awhile privately ( for I think it is a private matter) then I could tell you much that would relieve the pain and sorrow. Don't blame God, for each of us has an exact second of time to be born, and an exact second in time,to die. No one is born before their time, and no one will die before God wants them to, unless they decide to take their own life. No matter who you are, where you are, or what you believe, when God calls for you, you WILL go, and not even Mr Walmart with all his millions of dollars (11th richest man in the world) could buy another ten seconds. His time was up. Email me Christel, and we can discuss things, or if you are still planning to come by Toronto, call me. All the best Bill Cole edited for a spelling mistake...sorry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #44 July 18, 2005 Strange, though. In questions of faith, you can write as many pages as you want, but it still comes down to circular logic (it is because it is said to be...). If it didn't, it wouldn't be faith. In any case, Bill, be glad you have something strong in you life. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #45 July 18, 2005 Hi Bill, I'm looking forward to that discussion. That surely will be highly interesting. Cya Christel dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #46 July 18, 2005 QuoteYou've talked about how so many people witnessed Jesus acts they must be telling the truth, well how many people saw the priestess of Delphi recieve the predictions of Apollo? Is Apollo real? Thousands of people have witnessed evangelical ministers cure sick people, do you believe all the ministers were imbued with divine power? I don’t know how else to explain it. Reliable records presenting multiple eye-witnesses corroborating each other’s stories all willing to die horrible deaths because they would not deny what they saw or refuse to preach to the world the implications of it. The stories of the Priestess of Delphi nor all the people in an auditorium watching a televangelist don’t have that. No I don’t believe all the ministers you mentioned were imbued with divine power. I don’t deny that miracles occur, however. The sincerity of such a person must be determined by examining the totality of his/her works (whether they are “of God” or “of self). There are many people out there who use religion for selfish gain. Unfortunately, many people see this hypocrisy and are turned away even though, in reality, that doesn’t represent the true nature of the religion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #47 July 18, 2005 QuoteStrange, though. In questions of faith, you can write as many pages as you want, but it still comes down to circular logic (it is because it is said to be...). If it didn't, it wouldn't be faith. You probably believe John Hancock signed the Declaration of Independence. Why, because there were others who signed and authenticated it such as John Adams and Samuel Adams. These were reliable witnesses to the fact. No one alive today was witness to the fact that they all personally signed this document. However, I believe that they did based on the corroborating evidence. I guess there's a little bit of faith in all of that but it is certainly not "blind faith." “It is because it is said to be” isn’t a very convincing argument. “It is because multiple reliable people all willing to die because of what each of them saw together” is a little more convincing and worthy of investigation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LawnDart21 0 #48 July 18, 2005 The Bible's purpose is not Fact, it's Truth. ie, Many would believe that it is highly improbable that Moses actually descended from Mt. Sinai with the Ten Commandments in hand. Whether some people believe that the event actually occured or not, is irrelavent, what is relevant, is that believers and non believers alike would tend to agree that the Commandments themselves are not a bad way to live and foster a healthy society. "Do not kill, respect Mom and Dad, be nice to your neighbor, etc", the TRUTH is the message, not how its delivered. Another example, it may very well be that some day (even in our life time), that the absolutely unrefuted proof that Mankind came to be through evolution and not through Adam and Eve, is presented to the world, which would in effect rattle the foundation of the "Bible Thumpers", they would call it Satan's teachings and insist it was all part of Satan's plans to tear apart God's work. Point is, whether we evolved from Apes, or from Adam and Eve, it shouldnt affect ones faith in God (or the Bible for that matter) one iota. Again, the Bible is about Truth not Fact. Truth is God created the universe and mankind, how it was done is the Fact, but its largly unimportant whether it was Adam or evolution. Either way (Truth) He brought it to be. (Even scientists will admit that the Universe is sooooo complex that the idea of a higher power guiding its creation is not beyond possibility. Lastly, the Da Vinci Code......I consider myself to be good Catholic, and I actually try to conscouisly live my life by the WWJJ (What would Jesus Do) ideal. I also read the Da Vinci Code, loved the book, absolutely loved it. Is it fact or fiction? Who cares? Even if it were all true, it wouldnt shake or change my faith at all. The Church as a whole was even pressuring its flock to not read the book? Was it Satan seeping into thier flock? Nope, just a concern that the weak of faith could be further splintered. And my response is if some's faith is already weak, they will stray whether they read the book or not. My faith is built on the Truths of Bible, not the Facts. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Alias 0 #49 July 18, 2005 QuoteQuoteI know many who contribute much to thier communities....in the name of religion. Not everyone that has "faith" is a bible thumping tard afraid of death QuoteI wrote nothing about the bible, nor thumpers of it, nor about the teachings of christianity. No, you didn't. But to simply reduce "religion" to "the consequence of fear of death" I think is a bit naive. I have seen it to be more then that. I guess that was my point. and I used Christianity as an example. QuoteTherefore why not get rid of the middle man and just do what is right anyway? I'm sure that would work to some degree. But I think the reason I act the way I do, "right", is that I was taught to live in a christian fashion. And I bet you too. It is hard to have come up in the US without aknowledging that influence to your "moral compass". I guess I could skip everything else that re-enforces my beliefs. But you haven't told me why I would want to? Did you have a point? QuoteBesides, it's not like the bible was the first moral code ever published. Maybe not the first. But certainly the one of the first ever embraced by such a large following for such a long time. Carpe Diem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,577 #50 July 18, 2005 Quote Whether some people believe that the event actually occured or not, is irrelavent, what is relevant, is that believers and non believers alike would tend to agree that the Commandments themselves are not a bad way to live and foster a healthy society. Even the first four? Not only do they seem rather irrelevant to the smooth running of society they also infringe quite strongly on freedom of speech and expression. Quote I. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. II. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. III. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain. IV. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Do you want to have an ideagasm? 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jakee 1,577 #38 July 17, 2005 You've talked about how so many people witnessed Jesus acts they must be telling the truth, well how many people saw the priestess of Delphi recieve the predictions of Apollo? Is Apollo real? Thousands of people have witnessed evangelical ministers cure sick people, do you believe all the ministers were imbued with divine power? Everything you've said so far just seems to read as 'But those other guys were all wrong, it was different this time because they were right.' Also QuoteChristus [Jesus], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, and the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. So? At the time Tacitus was writing Christianity was a fast growing religion, and the first persecutions of Christians had already taken place- of course he's going to note Jesus death. He says nothing about any miracles though. Why did you include it, I don't think anyone is disputing the existence of a man called Jesus. You'll note he also calls Christianity 'shameful' and 'evil'.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #39 July 18, 2005 Jesus is a name, thus a noun. So is Mohammed(sp?) A powerful noun butno the lest Buddah, and many more. They are all sons of god, as are we. I was raised in a hard-core fundamentalist church (one step above Pentacostal) in the deep south, saved when I ws 12. Wanted to become a southern bapstist precher when I was 16. I lived that life fully,constonatly waiting for the second comoing of Christ. BTW - don't handle the snakes uness the ether is working College taught me the first of of thermo, and _that_ made wasy too mch sense. At at about this time, FEEL in love with a Catholic gird. Her morthe farbde me tos ee her. Took about 3 years to reconcile the two (God, thero), but I managed it. Lots of everny _real_ reserviuos out that that our formal hyics don't appcet. Dosn't make the any less real.. Ended up voted with my feet regarding relgion. Then, happend to come acroos a guy name Hunter S. Thompson. His writings touched me in way that I couldn't never have dremed out. Ended up traveling the world, wanyitng to the see rainbow first hand. At it's there. big time. You can't alway see it every dat, but's still there. Good alwasy maeks a rainbow. Just because you can't see it don't mean it's not there.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #40 July 18, 2005 i wonder if you really read the text of links you've posted.. they admit both the lack of primary sources, the lack of outside evidence, and then still try to use the Gospels to assert why such evidence doenst exist.. blind faith is such a scary thing..it creates the exact same type of mindset we are fighting against... those who are willing to believe anything their religion tells them with no evidence at all...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #41 July 18, 2005 Quote... those who are willing to believe anything their religion tells them with no evidence at all... I think in general people are only "willing" to believe such things with "no evidence at all" when those things pretty much go along with their own underlying beliefs. For example, I expect that if "his religion" told a devout christian in the USA that child molestation was a good thing, he'd be unlikely to accept that on blind faith.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #42 July 18, 2005 QuoteQuote... those who are willing to believe anything their religion tells them with no evidence at all... I think in general people are only "willing" to believe such things with "no evidence at all" when those things pretty much go along with their own underlying beliefs. For example, I expect that if "his religion" told a devout christian in the USA that child molestation was a good thing, he'd be unlikely to accept that on blind faith. And yet, if "your religion" does tell you to do things that you would not normally want to do, that would make it more likely that there was real entity to it external to yourself. That's why the story of God commanding Abraham to kill his son is so powerful. On the other hand, if "your religion" always tells you to do things that you would normally believe, it's very hard to prove empirically that "your religion" is not just an extension of your own thoughts and feelings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #43 July 18, 2005 There are many many people who use DZ.Com Forums to state their belief in things that they know nothing about. Most have never read or studied in depth the mysteries of God that are found in His WORD, and that is a terrible loss of a great opportunity. It is one thing to read the printed words, but there are many thousands of things that are hidden from immediate view, and unless one takes the time to study, and as Christ said "Search the Scriptures" those hidden things will remain hidden, and the "reader" will have missed the opportunity to Spiritually understand what God has put before him. The scriptures were written by 41 writers over a 1500 years period, and to REALLY KNOW the Divine way in which they came together in 1611 A.D., would make your head spin. Now before anyone says that the Bible was simply written by men" in one sense that is true, but only by Holy men as they were directed by the Holy Spirit of God. They never put a single word in their writings without God's direction, and God brought those writings to a Divine conclusion in 1611, in London England, the center of the world, so His Divine WORDwould go to the four corners of the word. There are 791,328 words in the Authorized King James version, and not a single letter out of place. The New Intnl Version, and all others are nothing but perversions, done for financial gain, and published in Grand Rapids Michigan USA...the center of nothing, and that is the value of those publications. For some people to say the Bible is lies is totally wronmg. God CANNOT lie, for if He could, then he would not be the total TRUTH, and Jesus, the Christ of God, said, "I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE....NO MAN cometh to the Father...BUT BY ME (Jesus). If God wasnt total truth, then everything Jesus said would be suspect to being a lie, and if so, then Jesus could not be the Saviour of the World...and that is EXACTLY what He is. He is the CHRIST of God, (Christ is Greek for Messiah) and Jesus IS the Messiah. As for my friend Christel, I can see you have been hurt by the tragic loss of your husband. I can't say he was saved by the blood of Christ, only Jesus knowns that answer,but if I spoke to you for awhile privately ( for I think it is a private matter) then I could tell you much that would relieve the pain and sorrow. Don't blame God, for each of us has an exact second of time to be born, and an exact second in time,to die. No one is born before their time, and no one will die before God wants them to, unless they decide to take their own life. No matter who you are, where you are, or what you believe, when God calls for you, you WILL go, and not even Mr Walmart with all his millions of dollars (11th richest man in the world) could buy another ten seconds. His time was up. Email me Christel, and we can discuss things, or if you are still planning to come by Toronto, call me. All the best Bill Cole edited for a spelling mistake...sorry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #44 July 18, 2005 Strange, though. In questions of faith, you can write as many pages as you want, but it still comes down to circular logic (it is because it is said to be...). If it didn't, it wouldn't be faith. In any case, Bill, be glad you have something strong in you life. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #45 July 18, 2005 Hi Bill, I'm looking forward to that discussion. That surely will be highly interesting. Cya Christel dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #46 July 18, 2005 QuoteYou've talked about how so many people witnessed Jesus acts they must be telling the truth, well how many people saw the priestess of Delphi recieve the predictions of Apollo? Is Apollo real? Thousands of people have witnessed evangelical ministers cure sick people, do you believe all the ministers were imbued with divine power? I don’t know how else to explain it. Reliable records presenting multiple eye-witnesses corroborating each other’s stories all willing to die horrible deaths because they would not deny what they saw or refuse to preach to the world the implications of it. The stories of the Priestess of Delphi nor all the people in an auditorium watching a televangelist don’t have that. No I don’t believe all the ministers you mentioned were imbued with divine power. I don’t deny that miracles occur, however. The sincerity of such a person must be determined by examining the totality of his/her works (whether they are “of God” or “of self). There are many people out there who use religion for selfish gain. Unfortunately, many people see this hypocrisy and are turned away even though, in reality, that doesn’t represent the true nature of the religion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #47 July 18, 2005 QuoteStrange, though. In questions of faith, you can write as many pages as you want, but it still comes down to circular logic (it is because it is said to be...). If it didn't, it wouldn't be faith. You probably believe John Hancock signed the Declaration of Independence. Why, because there were others who signed and authenticated it such as John Adams and Samuel Adams. These were reliable witnesses to the fact. No one alive today was witness to the fact that they all personally signed this document. However, I believe that they did based on the corroborating evidence. I guess there's a little bit of faith in all of that but it is certainly not "blind faith." “It is because it is said to be” isn’t a very convincing argument. “It is because multiple reliable people all willing to die because of what each of them saw together” is a little more convincing and worthy of investigation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #48 July 18, 2005 The Bible's purpose is not Fact, it's Truth. ie, Many would believe that it is highly improbable that Moses actually descended from Mt. Sinai with the Ten Commandments in hand. Whether some people believe that the event actually occured or not, is irrelavent, what is relevant, is that believers and non believers alike would tend to agree that the Commandments themselves are not a bad way to live and foster a healthy society. "Do not kill, respect Mom and Dad, be nice to your neighbor, etc", the TRUTH is the message, not how its delivered. Another example, it may very well be that some day (even in our life time), that the absolutely unrefuted proof that Mankind came to be through evolution and not through Adam and Eve, is presented to the world, which would in effect rattle the foundation of the "Bible Thumpers", they would call it Satan's teachings and insist it was all part of Satan's plans to tear apart God's work. Point is, whether we evolved from Apes, or from Adam and Eve, it shouldnt affect ones faith in God (or the Bible for that matter) one iota. Again, the Bible is about Truth not Fact. Truth is God created the universe and mankind, how it was done is the Fact, but its largly unimportant whether it was Adam or evolution. Either way (Truth) He brought it to be. (Even scientists will admit that the Universe is sooooo complex that the idea of a higher power guiding its creation is not beyond possibility. Lastly, the Da Vinci Code......I consider myself to be good Catholic, and I actually try to conscouisly live my life by the WWJJ (What would Jesus Do) ideal. I also read the Da Vinci Code, loved the book, absolutely loved it. Is it fact or fiction? Who cares? Even if it were all true, it wouldnt shake or change my faith at all. The Church as a whole was even pressuring its flock to not read the book? Was it Satan seeping into thier flock? Nope, just a concern that the weak of faith could be further splintered. And my response is if some's faith is already weak, they will stray whether they read the book or not. My faith is built on the Truths of Bible, not the Facts. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alias 0 #49 July 18, 2005 QuoteQuoteI know many who contribute much to thier communities....in the name of religion. Not everyone that has "faith" is a bible thumping tard afraid of death QuoteI wrote nothing about the bible, nor thumpers of it, nor about the teachings of christianity. No, you didn't. But to simply reduce "religion" to "the consequence of fear of death" I think is a bit naive. I have seen it to be more then that. I guess that was my point. and I used Christianity as an example. QuoteTherefore why not get rid of the middle man and just do what is right anyway? I'm sure that would work to some degree. But I think the reason I act the way I do, "right", is that I was taught to live in a christian fashion. And I bet you too. It is hard to have come up in the US without aknowledging that influence to your "moral compass". I guess I could skip everything else that re-enforces my beliefs. But you haven't told me why I would want to? Did you have a point? QuoteBesides, it's not like the bible was the first moral code ever published. Maybe not the first. But certainly the one of the first ever embraced by such a large following for such a long time. Carpe Diem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,577 #50 July 18, 2005 Quote Whether some people believe that the event actually occured or not, is irrelavent, what is relevant, is that believers and non believers alike would tend to agree that the Commandments themselves are not a bad way to live and foster a healthy society. Even the first four? Not only do they seem rather irrelevant to the smooth running of society they also infringe quite strongly on freedom of speech and expression. Quote I. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. II. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. III. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain. IV. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
jakee 1,577 #50 July 18, 2005 Quote Whether some people believe that the event actually occured or not, is irrelavent, what is relevant, is that believers and non believers alike would tend to agree that the Commandments themselves are not a bad way to live and foster a healthy society. Even the first four? Not only do they seem rather irrelevant to the smooth running of society they also infringe quite strongly on freedom of speech and expression. Quote I. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. II. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. III. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain. IV. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
