Tax Cuts for the Rich Reduce U.S. Budget Deficit

[kallend 2,147]

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Your graph is very telling. I'd like to see it normalized to GNP anyway as a better comparison. But with the big swings on the chart in recent, it's likely the normalization will still show what you hope it does. So why not just do that and shut down that particular argument?

As you wish...

How about a graph of DEBT vs GNP. IMO it's the cumulative debt we carry that is the real problem. There will be a point where service on the debt will become unsustainable without massive new revenue or very high inflation.
The US economy at present resembles a huge pyramid scheme that requires ever increasing growth to sustain itself. The problem with projecting growth forever is that it is simply not sustainable.
Nothing grows forever unless there are unlimited resources.
We are already beginning to see the limits of our resources, even if some choose to ignore that inconvenient fact.

Hey, someone else's turn to provide the data, I did two graphs already.

But I did find some numbers from the government:

When Pres. Reagan entered office the percent of US debt relative to GDP was 33.3%. Mr. Reagan campaigned on, and lobbied for a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution. He argued strongly to reduce the level liberal spending. However the only plan he pursued to get there was cutting taxes. Cutting taxes and not spending, predictably made the debt increase - in real dollars and as a percent of GDP. During his eight years in office the percentage of debt to GDP grew to 51.9%. This increase amounts to a 64% increase in debt relative to GDP, a rather significant increase by anyone’s measure.



The percentage of debt to GDP continued to grow until 1996, when Clinton began to get government spending under control. The US debt peaked at 67.3% of GDP under that administration. By the end of the Clinton administration this percentage had dropped to 57.6%.

Pres. Bush (43) inherited a shrinking government and debt in 2001. With his first budget he managed to increase the debt ratio to 60.0%, by cutting taxes but not spending. By 2004 this ratio had risen to 63.7%, as a result of additional tax cuts, but no significant corresponding cuts in spending. Using government estimations (which are notoriously low) they predict that the debt to GDP ratio will grow to 69.3% by 2008, two percent higher than the previous peak in 1996.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,147]

Well, no-one else would do it... so here it is. Notice that it declines fairly continuously from the Korean War until Reagan gets in office. The goes up under the neo-cons.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

Exactly - notice that cutting taxes no longer forces reduced spending. That's what is broken - cutting spending.

These guys don't know how to balance a budget - it's not in their best interests.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Just recounting my own experience.

I agree, individual experience is amazing. Here's mine.

Getting out of the military (public system) we had to fill out forms to be eligible for certain VA benefits later. Needed for me to get VA benefits later in the event my knee reconstruction needed followup care 10/20 years later.

This guy hands everything out, take 15 minutes to explain how to fill in the form (20+ pages, x out this, fill out this, etc). Would not repeat himself, would not let us fill it out as he went, insisted it be done with 4 copies and bound in a plastic sleeve and labeled exactly his way, the sleeve wasn't provided, he would not accept it that session, but if it eventually made it to his desk (address quickly stated out loud and not written down) and wasn't 100% perfect, he'd throw it in the trash and not notify you.

Every single person just got up and left the forms on the desks. I'm sure that was the goal.

Yup - governmental administration of health care will be the greatest thing in the world. Who needs it administrated by a group that considers customer service to be critical to their success? certainly not us. Only private companies are that way.

Now the private companies suck for other reasons - refusing claims, etc. (example - my daughter needed tooth extractions (orthodontic prep) - it would be covered if they did all 6, but not covered for 2. Even though the charge is per tooth. Our dentist, without telling us, only charged for 2 under the impression it would give us a break. he had to resubmit for all 6.

I'm buying a jar of leeches and letting my barber do my dental work. It's less painful.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mikkey 0]

Just in regard to healthcare. Public health care can work reasonable well. I lived under "medicare" public health care systems in both Europe and here down under. You pay a contribution via your taxes (automatically) and you have the option to "top up" with private health insurance to cover "extras" like dental, physio, chiro etc. etc. and use private hospitals. These system I lived under work quite well ensuring everybody has a reasonable access to free health care. Also the process of just flashing/swiping your medicare card and presto makes the process easier too. Works for me.

I remember reading an article that the US health care system is more expensive then the "medicare" public ones. Iif I remember right this amongst other caused by the cost of red tape and administration.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[rehmwa 2]

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If I remember right this amongst other caused by the cost of red tape and administration.

There I have to agree with you. It all about how it's administrated and how corrupt the people in charge are (in the end it's senators and representatives here in the US).

either way, we are screwed - the private side is becoming just as bad as the public version would be

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[bodypilot90 0]

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the private side is becoming just as bad as the public version would be

not really, the private side has to watch the cost. The public side whould be working with a blank check.

[Gawain 0]

Good grief.

When you have substantially more people paying a little less each, the pot grows. The rich still pay a disproportionate amount in taxes.

Let's have another cut.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[rehmwa 2]

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the private side is becoming just as bad as the public version would be

not really, the private side has to watch the cost. The public side whould be working with a blank check.

That is true, but I meant in terms of the administrative hassle to get anything approved. That is one way they do cut costs. Make it practice to deny the first claim of any payment and then cash in on those too lazy to resubmit or fight for the benefits they paid in the first place.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gravitymaster 0]

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the private side is becoming just as bad as the public version would be

not really, the private side has to watch the cost. The public side whould be working with a blank check.

That is true, but I meant in terms of the administrative hassle to get anything approved. That is one way they do cut costs. Make it practice to deny the first claim of any payment and then cash in on those too lazy to resubmit or fight for the benefits they paid in the first place.

Apparently you've never dealt with the IRS.

[rehmwa 2]

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Apparently you've never dealt with the IRS.

Let me be clear, my personal position is to NOT want public healthcare. I'm only commenting that private insurance is steadily looking worse in terms of administration of claims (likely due to restrictive policies by the government and some level of showmanship by the companies themselve to maximize profit). Which is a given in my mind for public health care from the get go - public will be the same, likely worse from the start and worsen from there. In addition, I'd predict public would also be more expensive for everyone (except congressmen), and much lower quality (except congressmen).

A democracy is only successful until the people start thinking they can vote themselves rich. That's the start of a corrupt form of socialism.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[bodypilot90 0]

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That is true, but I meant in terms of the administrative hassle to get anything approved. That is one way they do cut costs. Make it practice to deny the first claim of any payment and then cash in on those too lazy to resubmit or fight for the benefits they paid in the first place.

Ever try to get disability from SSI, good luck with out a law firm.

[mikkey 0]

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Apparently you've never dealt with the IRS.

Let me be clear, my personal position is to NOT want public healthcare. I'm only commenting that private insurance is steadily looking worse in terms of administration of claims (likely due to restrictive policies by the government and some level of showmanship by the companies themselve to maximize profit). Which is a given in my mind for public health care from the get go - public will be the same, likely worse from the start and worsen from there. In addition, I'd predict public would also be more expensive for everyone (except congressmen), and much lower quality (except congressmen).

A democracy is only successful until the people start thinking they can vote themselves rich. That's the start of a corrupt form of socialism.

I was just making the point that whatever type of public healthcare you have in the States might be screwed, but there are countries who have public health care systems (with a private component for those who wish) where it works quite well and the total cost as % of GDP is lower. Not saying that the US shoudl go down that road, but it could be useful to study the experience other sytems provide. From what I read (and my knowledge of the US system is very limited) it seems that your system as such is not working too well (?)....

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[bodypilot90 0]

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From what I read (and my knowledge of the US system is very limited) it seems that your system as such is not working too well (?)....

works fine for me. However I do hear people from canada having to wait years for health care. NO THANKS.....

[kallend 2,147]

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From what I read (and my knowledge of the US system is very limited) it seems that your system as such is not working too well (?)....

works fine for me. However I do hear people from canada having to wait years for health care. NO THANKS.....

Well, if it's hearsay we're going by, I hear of people being denied service in the USA.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[bodypilot90 0]

the person waiting is a few houses down from me, hardly hearsay

[mikkey 0]

It is true that in countries with mainly public health service there are "waiting lists" due to bottle neck issues. However, if you top up with private health insurance you can cut the waiting line using a private hospital. Now, what is the situation for somebody without private health insurance in the US?

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[sundevil777 102]

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the person waiting is a few houses down from me, hardly hearsay

Quite right. The Toronto paper had an article when I was up there a while back about the long wait for chemotherapy and heart by-pass operation, etc. They were having to send patients to the US for procedures due to the lack of capacity to do it. They also mentioned how Pittsburgh has more magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) machines than all of Ontario. Even my little town of 16,000 has one. One of the engineers I work with in Alliston told me of her experience, how hard it was to get a pediatrician to agree to order the procedure to finally put tubes in her son's ears, after so many repeated infections. Kinda like how some complain that in the US there are too many C-section births. I think there may be something to the charge that doctors may do it too often because it is good for their 'schedule' and pocketbook, but after having one of my sons need the procedure, I'm very glad that there was not so much pressure on the doctors to avoid cost. HMOs are often criticized for being stingy, but this hasn't been my experience either. Usually they are the only ones that will not care about pre-existing conditions. When it matters, I want a specialist that is well paid, and gets a lot of free time to relax, instead of being overworked and underpaid as a government employee.

If you want to ensure a shortage of a commodity, having the government supply it is usually a good strategy. Everything is free, except if you need chemo or whatever, you face the decision to spend your life savings to go to the states to get it now or wait, what would you do?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[bodypilot90 0]

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However, if you top up with private health insurance you can cut the waiting line using a private hospital. Now, what is the situation for somebody without private health insurance in the US?

public health clinics.