skreamer 1 #1 July 12, 2005 Last week Thursday I was told to leave work early because of the travel disruptions (I use the Piccadilly line). I'm a self-employed contractor, so had pretty much written off the afternoon's wages. Today I got told that the company I work for is paying me until 6pm of last Thursday. They are doing the same for all non-salaried employees. Man, this is the second American company I've worked with and both have been by far the best employers I've come across. They have also been really accomodating about my lateness this week. I might not care much for the present American administration, but I absolutely enjoy working with American companies. My apologies to JP for misdirected venting on him, friendship is worth more than political differences. Bottom line : I don't like your leader but I certainly like the people. Will Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beerlight 0 #2 July 12, 2005 QuoteBottom line : I don't like your leader but I certainly like the people. Thank god we have a leader. A "real" leader..... It's crazy how soon people forget there are terrorists trying to kill you/me and anybody that doesn't stand in their line... Les we forget........ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #3 July 12, 2005 QuoteIt's crazy how soon people forget there are terrorists trying to kill you/me and anybody that doesn't stand in their line... I knew I made my post in the right forum! Love to stay and chat but I've got to get walking to Hyde Park Corner. How apt that I am leaving here to catch my nearest tube at the other Speaker's Corner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #4 July 12, 2005 QuoteThank god we have a leader. A "real" leader..... Bwa-hah-hah! He may meet the definition of one who "rules" others, but he certainly doesn't meet the criteria of inspiring or motivating others to follow him. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beerlight 0 #5 July 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteThank god we have a leader. A "real" leader..... Bwa-hah-hah! He may meet the definition of one who "rules" others, but he certainly doesn't meet the criteria of inspiring or motivating others to follow him.Quote Your opinion..... but I was fortunate enough to serve under him during my military career. To each who knows what leaders are made of...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #6 July 12, 2005 Will, I can't find the post where you tore me a new one for being a W supporter. It probably got deleted. It's one of the biggest reasons I don't come around Speakers any more, and almost never post here. I have some very good liberal friends who hate GW and think none of this stuff would have happened if his opponent had gotten elected. I don't think it matters too much, and I don't let it interfere with my friendships. The new and weird and terrifying thing is that western citizens, like that looney John Walker from Napa and the new group they found over in Lodi, CA have parents who send their kids to school in Pakistan and company to be educated that the west must be destroyed and all the territory taken during the crusades must be recovered and that all who do not convert to Islam must be killed. Pretty much. Now, there's not many of them, statistically, but it didn't take many to do the Twin Towers and most of downtown London.. Is it a war? If not, what is it? Those kids who were in those madrasas were educated over the courses of several western administratons, Conservative, Liberal, Tory, Socialist, Communist or whatever, depending on where you are from. The nearly month I spent in London, half of it with you, Will, there was little or no media coverage of my government that was positive. I look forward to you coming to live with me for a month and maybe seeing it's not quite as wild west as it seems, even if I do carry a gun a lot of the time. I think the folks who blew up London and New York, and Madrid don't give a whit about the stripes on the pants of the elected leaders. It's not like the parents get upset that Nader didn't get elected and then send their sons to a School For The Elimination Of Non-Muslim Western Civilization For Boys. It's usually way deeper and wierder than that. I remember being in Spain, quite a few years ago, and in the Southern part there are Moorish Mosques that had the minarets removed and bell towers built on top. and churches built inside cause they are just so huge that a church could be built inside. Beautiful buildings. Fairly crudely converted. Those conversions deeply and profoundly offend devout Muslims. When I was in Edinburgh, and even London just last year, there were a bunch of churches that had been converted to discotechs and other uses. Outrage? No. Heck, one of the local real estate offices I compete with is in a converted church. They even get bought back and forth from faith to faith. "Hey, the Methodist church is for sale." "Really, how many square feet? The Lutherans are looking for something with a pipe organ". Wow. I'm going on and on. Will, I wish I could have read your vent. I'm just guessing at how I might have pressed your buttons (and the buttons of lots of my anti-right-wing-American Politics leanings). It really isn't about the last few administrations in the West. The creation of martyrs that is bearing fruit now is not the result of Reagan/Clinton/Bush/Blair/Chirac/Shroeder/Howard yadayada. It doesn't matter how much a person may or may not like the current elected leaders of a western democracy. There are a whole lot of little boys with only one book that they have to memorize, and the way they are being taught to interpret that book does not allow for western freedom. Yikes. Sorry about all that. Will! Stop apologizing to me in speakers, you get me all typee. Laters! Stay safe! JP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites panzwami 0 #7 July 12, 2005 QuoteHe may meet the definition of one who "rules" others, but he certainly doesn't meet the criteria of inspiring or motivating others to follow him. Well, except for the majority of the American voting public that voted him back into office for a second term. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #8 July 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteHe may meet the definition of one who "rules" others, but he certainly doesn't meet the criteria of inspiring or motivating others to follow him. Well, except for the majority of the American voting public that voted him back into office for a second term. All his re-election says is that the majority of Americans thought he wouldn't do as bad as Kerry. It says nothing about his ability to lead. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #9 July 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteHe may meet the definition of one who "rules" others, but he certainly doesn't meet the criteria of inspiring or motivating others to follow him. Well, except for the majority of the American voting public that voted him back into office for a second term. And then there's the 150,000,000 or so American voters that didn't vote for W, so that's a lot of unmotivated non-followers.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ViperPilot 0 #10 July 12, 2005 QuoteAll his re-election says is that the majority of Americans thought he wouldn't do as bad as Kerry. It says nothing about his ability to lead. Not necessarily. While your description can describe large numbers of voters, the other large number of voters voted for Bush because they think he is a good leader. So their votes do say something about his ability to lead. Besides, a vote for Bush because a voter thinks he is a better leader just inherently implies that voter thinks Bush will do better thank Kerry. However, it's all really a moot point, because every election comes down to picking the "better" guy. Both candidates could be the best leaders or the worst leaders, or a mix. It doesn't matter, the basic principle is picking who you think is best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites panzwami 0 #11 July 12, 2005 QuoteAnd then there's the 150,000,000 or so American voters that didn't vote for W, so that's a lot of unmotivated non-followers. Luckily for us we still live in a country where majority rules (except in the Senate). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #12 July 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnd then there's the 150,000,000 or so American voters that didn't vote for W, so that's a lot of unmotivated non-followers. Luckily for us we still live in a country where majority rules (except in the Senate). ...and the 2000 presidential election. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites panzwami 0 #13 July 12, 2005 Quote ...and the 2000 presidential election. Blues, Dave Seems to me Bush got the majority of the electoral votes in that one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ViperPilot 0 #14 July 12, 2005 Well, there's approx 59,440,000 that voted against Bush. So where's your 150,000,000 figure coming from? Including non-voters? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #15 July 12, 2005 QuoteQuote ...and the 2000 presidential election. Blues, Dave Seems to me Bush got the majority of the electoral votes in that one. But he didn't get a majority of the popular vote, thus the majority doesn't always rule. That's all I was saying. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skreamer 1 #16 July 12, 2005 QuoteWill, I can't find the post where you tore me a new one for being a W supporter. Nah man, it was for the PM I sent you Saturday morning. I was hungover and looking to share the pain. The whole house is looking forward to your visit next year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AlexCrowley 0 #17 July 12, 2005 Quote The new and weird and terrifying thing is that western citizens, like that looney John Walker from Napa and the new group they found over in Lodi, CA have parents who send their kids to school in Pakistan and company to be educated that the west must be destroyed and all the territory taken during the crusades must be recovered and that all who do not convert to Islam must be killed. Yup, the meds are wearing off again...... I found the rest of your post very interesting and I share a lot of the same thoughts about the illusion of difference between left and right. Those with power use it for their own means, the polarization of the followers simply allows their continued existence. But with the greatest respect, I do feel strongly that this comment. I apologize to anyone who feels offended by the content of the rest of this post, it isnt intended to instigate but to generate discussion. I apologize for the length of it too. It may be true that muslims are sending their western raised children to be trained as terrorists but that is simply one side of the looking glass. There are as many white folks in the US, UK and Western Europe that are teaching their children similar values of hate and intolerance in the name of god. Sure, the vast majority are simply learning basic bigotry 101, be afraid of the unknown and turn that fear into aggression. BUT there are a hardcore group who are teaching their kids extremism of every stripe, these parents are part of every race, religion and nationality. Christian, Jewish, agnostics - the ideology differs but the hatred remains the same. My first memory of being in the US was driving down Main Street in Cheyenne Wy and seeing what I thought was a family church group having a picnic. On closer inspection they were holding signs with "AIDS KILLS FAGS" "AIDS -GODS MESSAGE TO FAGS" "GOD HATES FAGS". Nice and tolerant :-/ I mentioned on a previous thread: Olympic Bomber Eric Rudolph was a fundie christian who travelled in white supremacist circles and bombed abortion clinics because he believed it was against God. If your religion is a 'religion of peace and love' (tm George Bush) of *any* stripe does it not strike you as obscene that those who are in power would pervert those teachings into symbols of hate? Would you like to explain to the gay community that Christian politicians aren't preaching intolerance and bigotry but are simply telling us what God really meant? When Christian politicians equate gay marriage with marrying housepets or farm animals (yup, happened). Creationism? 60% of americans do not believe in Evolution as it is 'too complicated'. yes, an overwhelming majority of this 60% of respondents called themselves Christian. There are fights in several states courts over the need to teach Creationism/Intelligent Design in schools to balance out Science. Kansas has gained most of the press on this one. what does this have to do with the subject? The belief of a large cross section of society in one thing while another section whole heartedly rejects it. To someone outside of American religion (and trust me, its very different than european christianity) it's extremism. If you consider extremism to be holding a belief fanatically, often in the face of compelling evidence to the contrary. Lets look at something that Christians are very hot on: pornography and family values. These values include the protection of children from sexual images, and a way to protect children is to protect everyone from sexual images on broadcast television. Islam also has very strong rules on what is acceptable for a woman to show in public. The argument that censoring TV is different does not hold up once you consider that TV shapes the public conciousness and dictates taste and styles. How many generations would it take for Americans to have women dressing conservatively in public in its push for family values? Could it happen? The extreme christian right would like it that way because it is what they believe God intended. I do not mean to victimize Christianity here, but it's a religion that I have both been part of and know enough to talk about. I'm sure others could provide equal information regarding Jewish, Pagan and whatever-else extremism. Moving away from religion to political ideology: "If you want to insult the US then get out!" "Liberals are traitors!" or whatever else you see on political blogs nowadays. There are people on this forum who will argue until death that Rove is an evil criminal who exposed a CIA agent during a time of war. There are others who believe as passionately that Rove is innocent. Each of them is unable to dispassionately view the other argument, or to even hold it in their head long enough to take a second look, it's an immediate knee jerk "How the hell could anyone think that! They must be in league with bush|kerry". If a bunch of skydivers can be as passionate about something as trivial as some guy sending an email (I make no judgement as to the situations importance, only the respective sides reactions of defense and offence) can we begin to understand how someone half a world away, or half a state away can really feel about us? Each side is as guilty as the other. The west have standing armies to fill with their xenophobes and religious crusaders (certainly not the majority, but I think there have been enough propoganda reel footage of John Boy from AL talking about fighting for god and country - doesnt matter the truth of it, terrorists see it too without the mental filters we decode it with, they see weapons and someone talking about God and assume that he's not talking about Allah). The middle east, for thousands of years a tribal society, never cohesive enough to provide a united front have their terrorists. For *anyone* to claim that America was innocently sat there minding its own business as a superpower when it was heinously attacked has no knowledge of America's involvement in the middle east. Now, please note, I did not say 'America deserved being attacked' because I do not believe anyone deserves getting killed for any particular reason. However, the 'why me' syndrome that seems to be Joe Public's response to the attack with zero followup work by either press or public galls me no end. "They hate our freedoms" is a fairy tale told to children who refuse to grow up. "they" are not brown skinned, black skinned, yellow skinned or white skinned. They are all. There are many reasons Bin Laden and the middle east hate America, some perhaps justified, others definitely not, the majority - the ones that motivate terrorism, are - by and large, the intangibles, the ideologies rather than the acts. With the advent of Iraq this has changed somewhat, but even so it is seen simply as physical evidence of everything Bin laden et al were talking about in the first place. The english (at least until the British Government censored the news reports more and more) understood why the IRA committed its acts of terrorism. They didnt' sympathise with them, they didnt agree with them, but they were aware that there was a counter argument to the reality they saw. Look at the history of Ireland, where most dont even know the true history of the conflict understand why they were fighting, its something that they're ingrained to know. As much as the air you breathe you absorb your countries values and personality through osmosis, and it isnt until you leave that space that you start to understand that layer you filter through. I can't speak for Spain, but I'd ask a Spaniard if he knew what the seperatist movement was about. Americans, in conversations about terrorism, are quick to point to other nations that we need to take terrorism seriously, that in a post 9/11 world we can't be too careful, that we need to stop these evil people. Perhaps we could start by stopping the demonization of Islam and realize that terrorism is a world wide problem that is based on differences in ideology, and that includes more than just religion. Yes, there are dangerous Islamic extremists, and they're getting our front pages. But there are also dangerous Catholic/Baptist/Protestant/Fundie christian extremists who commit acts of terrorism as often (bombing/burning abortion clinics, killing doctors) albeit with a smaller, less headline grabbing bodycount - or such dramatic visuals. Just as there are terrorists based on blood lines (Basque seperatists, the situation Bosnia/Serbia). It is everywhere, our reaction to that threat is a measure of both our awareness and maturity as a society. In a true sense American society (in other words, the man in the street) is having to catch up with the rest of the world, who've lived through their own struggles in their own countries, who understand from recent and past histories that nothing in life is certain and that while we hope for peaceful happy lives there is always a risk it could end in an instant due to the actions of a madman. I speak only from my experience of being an outsider around groups of Americans during both the Olympic bombing and 9/11 and sharing information and getting reactions from them, and my observations of American society in the last 4 years post 9/11 in comparison to European culture. I'm sorry to take this topic on a little joyride across varying tangents but I wanted to see where that was going. My main point was how tiring it is to see the arab world and muslims being singled out by people at the expense of thinking about the real issues in play with regards to terrorism, their ideologies and training, because my major concern is that while we're all paying attention to the little dark guy with the turban we're going to miss blue eyed blond haired Billy Bob who's fighting the US because of the injustices of Waco and the Oklahoma bombing "martyrs". TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #18 July 12, 2005 Dude, I just re-read Deuce's post. I don't see anywhere that he says something like "and of course all christians are good," or "it's only Muslims who are intolerant," or anything like that. Maybe you can point me to that part?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #19 July 12, 2005 Holy Crap Will! That?! I had to re-read it to find offense. Fuggetabout it. Like I said, I don't think the young men who are doing this stuff decided their course after reading the back of a breakfast cereal box. They've been being acclimated to it as soon as they learn to read, and they aren't allowed to read "Cat in the Hat" or watch "teletubbies". They are usually about 20 or so, and over here that would put them born about 1985 to parents mad that Reagan was president until 1989. Then they are still mad that Bush 41 gets the job for 4 years, but then maybe are mollified that Clinton gets the job from 93 to 2001. It has been my experience that Clinton was pretty well liked internationally (regardless of whatever foaming at the mouth reasons some of my compatriots just couldn't stand him) OK, so these boys started out under Reagan for 4 years, turned 8 when Clinton was the boss and learned how to drive a car bomb legally when Bush 43 won, or the pentaverate arranged with Sandra Day O'Connor for HW to become president. Some of these boys learned how to fly jets into buildings, and some learned how to destroy subway systems. It did not happen in a week or a month or a year. They were raised to it. The west is not prepared for this. We are a drive-through, what pill do I take to fix it now, what do you mean my connecting flight is an hour after I arrive? kind of people. Worse in the US, but it is a western thing. A 30 year old man who was raised to beleive the west is evil in a demonic was is going to be pretty hard to do business with. You tell your housemates to be ready! Some rumours that Herc may not happen because of the demands on their air force, but we'll find some excuse! JP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,588 #20 July 12, 2005 I don't think he's indicating that Deuce said so. It's just that Deuce only pointed out the anti-West training that some extremist Muslims received, and Alex is pointing out that it's not just Muslims. As he said, food for thought and discussion. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AlexCrowley 0 #21 July 12, 2005 QuoteDude, I just re-read Deuce's post. I don't see anywhere that he says something like "and of course all christians are good," or "it's only Muslims who are intolerant," or anything like that. Maybe you can point me to that part? I'm sorry Tom, I wasn't attacking Deuce or Christianity. I read Deuces post, thought it was pretty good and said I agreed with him. It wasn't even the attacking him about his statement regarding muslims, only his comment about the weird and terrifying thing of muslims being sent home to terrorist school. The rest of my post was an attempt to illustrate the fallacy that all terrorists are muslims (please review the current terrorist posts on this forum, but in my review of the threads I only saw mention of AQ and Muslims), and talk a little about ideology not having racial, nationalistic or religious limitations. As I stated within my post, I apologized for the examples using only Christianity as a representative religion, but being of British decent I grew up around Christianity and studied it I felt able to discuss what *I* consider to be perversions of Christianity. I also stated that I was sure people with knowledge of other faiths could discuss extremists there. Personally I dont know all the Jewish holidays so discussing Jewish extremism would be difficult for me to grasp or cover at any length. As for the rest of the post, it was just me seeing where things went.. Again, my apologies if you had misunderstood my intent or use of Deuces post as a springboard. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JanelleAgin 0 #22 July 12, 2005 If your terms of employment are to be at work till a certain prescribed time and they send you home early (for whatever reason), then it is only reasonable for them to pay you for the entire day. Even if this were not the case; the events of last thursday were extraordinary, and it would have been in poor taste for them not to show some concern and make extra concessions. I'm glad you weren't hurt and also that you're having good experiences with Americans - we're not all loud obnoxious gun-totin' Bush-lovin' republicans! hmm..I'm gonna get pummeled for that one.. "Hold on to the goodness in the people you connect with." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #23 July 12, 2005 QuoteI'm glad you weren't hurt and also that you're having good experiences with Americans - we're not all loud obnoxious gun-totin' Bush-lovin' republicans! hmm..I'm gonna get pummeled for that one.. Yes we are, dammit! Skreamer, come to Idaho, where the white guys with assault rifles live. We can chuck you off a bridge and unload a drum of 7.62 from the AK, all legally, and all within 10 miles of home.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #24 July 12, 2005 QuoteDude, I just re-read Deuce's post. I don't see anywhere that he says something like "and of course all christians are good," or "it's only Muslims who are intolerant," or anything like that. Maybe you can point me to that part? Yeah, Tom, that's why I pretty much don't visit here much. Lots of parsing for the joy of an internet argument where one participant is driven to exasperation and leaves and the other claims victory. Regarding Mr. Crowley's statement that everybody is guilty, I disagree. If the Unibomber, McVeigh, Eric Rudolph (abortion clinic and Olympic bomber) had all been acting under whatever the christian version of a fatwah is, we'd be rounding up those clergy members for conspiracy and they would have been charged as well. Regardless of their "religion" particularly that nutwad Rudolph there is no mainstream religious tolerance of their actions. If there is an Al Quaeda type of support structure for the McVeigh's and Rudolphs of the world, I'm unaware of it. I'm betting is has something to do with the Colonel with his wee beady eyes, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #25 July 12, 2005 QuoteSkreamer, come to Idaho, where the white guys with assault rifles live. We can chuck you off a bridge and unload a drum of 7.62 from the AK, all legally, and all within 10 miles of home. OK, that's on the road trip when he comes out! A drum though? That's a pretty tall bridge! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Deuce 1 #6 July 12, 2005 Will, I can't find the post where you tore me a new one for being a W supporter. It probably got deleted. It's one of the biggest reasons I don't come around Speakers any more, and almost never post here. I have some very good liberal friends who hate GW and think none of this stuff would have happened if his opponent had gotten elected. I don't think it matters too much, and I don't let it interfere with my friendships. The new and weird and terrifying thing is that western citizens, like that looney John Walker from Napa and the new group they found over in Lodi, CA have parents who send their kids to school in Pakistan and company to be educated that the west must be destroyed and all the territory taken during the crusades must be recovered and that all who do not convert to Islam must be killed. Pretty much. Now, there's not many of them, statistically, but it didn't take many to do the Twin Towers and most of downtown London.. Is it a war? If not, what is it? Those kids who were in those madrasas were educated over the courses of several western administratons, Conservative, Liberal, Tory, Socialist, Communist or whatever, depending on where you are from. The nearly month I spent in London, half of it with you, Will, there was little or no media coverage of my government that was positive. I look forward to you coming to live with me for a month and maybe seeing it's not quite as wild west as it seems, even if I do carry a gun a lot of the time. I think the folks who blew up London and New York, and Madrid don't give a whit about the stripes on the pants of the elected leaders. It's not like the parents get upset that Nader didn't get elected and then send their sons to a School For The Elimination Of Non-Muslim Western Civilization For Boys. It's usually way deeper and wierder than that. I remember being in Spain, quite a few years ago, and in the Southern part there are Moorish Mosques that had the minarets removed and bell towers built on top. and churches built inside cause they are just so huge that a church could be built inside. Beautiful buildings. Fairly crudely converted. Those conversions deeply and profoundly offend devout Muslims. When I was in Edinburgh, and even London just last year, there were a bunch of churches that had been converted to discotechs and other uses. Outrage? No. Heck, one of the local real estate offices I compete with is in a converted church. They even get bought back and forth from faith to faith. "Hey, the Methodist church is for sale." "Really, how many square feet? The Lutherans are looking for something with a pipe organ". Wow. I'm going on and on. Will, I wish I could have read your vent. I'm just guessing at how I might have pressed your buttons (and the buttons of lots of my anti-right-wing-American Politics leanings). It really isn't about the last few administrations in the West. The creation of martyrs that is bearing fruit now is not the result of Reagan/Clinton/Bush/Blair/Chirac/Shroeder/Howard yadayada. It doesn't matter how much a person may or may not like the current elected leaders of a western democracy. There are a whole lot of little boys with only one book that they have to memorize, and the way they are being taught to interpret that book does not allow for western freedom. Yikes. Sorry about all that. Will! Stop apologizing to me in speakers, you get me all typee. Laters! Stay safe! JP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
panzwami 0 #7 July 12, 2005 QuoteHe may meet the definition of one who "rules" others, but he certainly doesn't meet the criteria of inspiring or motivating others to follow him. Well, except for the majority of the American voting public that voted him back into office for a second term. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #8 July 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteHe may meet the definition of one who "rules" others, but he certainly doesn't meet the criteria of inspiring or motivating others to follow him. Well, except for the majority of the American voting public that voted him back into office for a second term. All his re-election says is that the majority of Americans thought he wouldn't do as bad as Kerry. It says nothing about his ability to lead. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #9 July 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteHe may meet the definition of one who "rules" others, but he certainly doesn't meet the criteria of inspiring or motivating others to follow him. Well, except for the majority of the American voting public that voted him back into office for a second term. And then there's the 150,000,000 or so American voters that didn't vote for W, so that's a lot of unmotivated non-followers.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ViperPilot 0 #10 July 12, 2005 QuoteAll his re-election says is that the majority of Americans thought he wouldn't do as bad as Kerry. It says nothing about his ability to lead. Not necessarily. While your description can describe large numbers of voters, the other large number of voters voted for Bush because they think he is a good leader. So their votes do say something about his ability to lead. Besides, a vote for Bush because a voter thinks he is a better leader just inherently implies that voter thinks Bush will do better thank Kerry. However, it's all really a moot point, because every election comes down to picking the "better" guy. Both candidates could be the best leaders or the worst leaders, or a mix. It doesn't matter, the basic principle is picking who you think is best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
panzwami 0 #11 July 12, 2005 QuoteAnd then there's the 150,000,000 or so American voters that didn't vote for W, so that's a lot of unmotivated non-followers. Luckily for us we still live in a country where majority rules (except in the Senate). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #12 July 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnd then there's the 150,000,000 or so American voters that didn't vote for W, so that's a lot of unmotivated non-followers. Luckily for us we still live in a country where majority rules (except in the Senate). ...and the 2000 presidential election. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
panzwami 0 #13 July 12, 2005 Quote ...and the 2000 presidential election. Blues, Dave Seems to me Bush got the majority of the electoral votes in that one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ViperPilot 0 #14 July 12, 2005 Well, there's approx 59,440,000 that voted against Bush. So where's your 150,000,000 figure coming from? Including non-voters? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #15 July 12, 2005 QuoteQuote ...and the 2000 presidential election. Blues, Dave Seems to me Bush got the majority of the electoral votes in that one. But he didn't get a majority of the popular vote, thus the majority doesn't always rule. That's all I was saying. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #16 July 12, 2005 QuoteWill, I can't find the post where you tore me a new one for being a W supporter. Nah man, it was for the PM I sent you Saturday morning. I was hungover and looking to share the pain. The whole house is looking forward to your visit next year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AlexCrowley 0 #17 July 12, 2005 Quote The new and weird and terrifying thing is that western citizens, like that looney John Walker from Napa and the new group they found over in Lodi, CA have parents who send their kids to school in Pakistan and company to be educated that the west must be destroyed and all the territory taken during the crusades must be recovered and that all who do not convert to Islam must be killed. Yup, the meds are wearing off again...... I found the rest of your post very interesting and I share a lot of the same thoughts about the illusion of difference between left and right. Those with power use it for their own means, the polarization of the followers simply allows their continued existence. But with the greatest respect, I do feel strongly that this comment. I apologize to anyone who feels offended by the content of the rest of this post, it isnt intended to instigate but to generate discussion. I apologize for the length of it too. It may be true that muslims are sending their western raised children to be trained as terrorists but that is simply one side of the looking glass. There are as many white folks in the US, UK and Western Europe that are teaching their children similar values of hate and intolerance in the name of god. Sure, the vast majority are simply learning basic bigotry 101, be afraid of the unknown and turn that fear into aggression. BUT there are a hardcore group who are teaching their kids extremism of every stripe, these parents are part of every race, religion and nationality. Christian, Jewish, agnostics - the ideology differs but the hatred remains the same. My first memory of being in the US was driving down Main Street in Cheyenne Wy and seeing what I thought was a family church group having a picnic. On closer inspection they were holding signs with "AIDS KILLS FAGS" "AIDS -GODS MESSAGE TO FAGS" "GOD HATES FAGS". Nice and tolerant :-/ I mentioned on a previous thread: Olympic Bomber Eric Rudolph was a fundie christian who travelled in white supremacist circles and bombed abortion clinics because he believed it was against God. If your religion is a 'religion of peace and love' (tm George Bush) of *any* stripe does it not strike you as obscene that those who are in power would pervert those teachings into symbols of hate? Would you like to explain to the gay community that Christian politicians aren't preaching intolerance and bigotry but are simply telling us what God really meant? When Christian politicians equate gay marriage with marrying housepets or farm animals (yup, happened). Creationism? 60% of americans do not believe in Evolution as it is 'too complicated'. yes, an overwhelming majority of this 60% of respondents called themselves Christian. There are fights in several states courts over the need to teach Creationism/Intelligent Design in schools to balance out Science. Kansas has gained most of the press on this one. what does this have to do with the subject? The belief of a large cross section of society in one thing while another section whole heartedly rejects it. To someone outside of American religion (and trust me, its very different than european christianity) it's extremism. If you consider extremism to be holding a belief fanatically, often in the face of compelling evidence to the contrary. Lets look at something that Christians are very hot on: pornography and family values. These values include the protection of children from sexual images, and a way to protect children is to protect everyone from sexual images on broadcast television. Islam also has very strong rules on what is acceptable for a woman to show in public. The argument that censoring TV is different does not hold up once you consider that TV shapes the public conciousness and dictates taste and styles. How many generations would it take for Americans to have women dressing conservatively in public in its push for family values? Could it happen? The extreme christian right would like it that way because it is what they believe God intended. I do not mean to victimize Christianity here, but it's a religion that I have both been part of and know enough to talk about. I'm sure others could provide equal information regarding Jewish, Pagan and whatever-else extremism. Moving away from religion to political ideology: "If you want to insult the US then get out!" "Liberals are traitors!" or whatever else you see on political blogs nowadays. There are people on this forum who will argue until death that Rove is an evil criminal who exposed a CIA agent during a time of war. There are others who believe as passionately that Rove is innocent. Each of them is unable to dispassionately view the other argument, or to even hold it in their head long enough to take a second look, it's an immediate knee jerk "How the hell could anyone think that! They must be in league with bush|kerry". If a bunch of skydivers can be as passionate about something as trivial as some guy sending an email (I make no judgement as to the situations importance, only the respective sides reactions of defense and offence) can we begin to understand how someone half a world away, or half a state away can really feel about us? Each side is as guilty as the other. The west have standing armies to fill with their xenophobes and religious crusaders (certainly not the majority, but I think there have been enough propoganda reel footage of John Boy from AL talking about fighting for god and country - doesnt matter the truth of it, terrorists see it too without the mental filters we decode it with, they see weapons and someone talking about God and assume that he's not talking about Allah). The middle east, for thousands of years a tribal society, never cohesive enough to provide a united front have their terrorists. For *anyone* to claim that America was innocently sat there minding its own business as a superpower when it was heinously attacked has no knowledge of America's involvement in the middle east. Now, please note, I did not say 'America deserved being attacked' because I do not believe anyone deserves getting killed for any particular reason. However, the 'why me' syndrome that seems to be Joe Public's response to the attack with zero followup work by either press or public galls me no end. "They hate our freedoms" is a fairy tale told to children who refuse to grow up. "they" are not brown skinned, black skinned, yellow skinned or white skinned. They are all. There are many reasons Bin Laden and the middle east hate America, some perhaps justified, others definitely not, the majority - the ones that motivate terrorism, are - by and large, the intangibles, the ideologies rather than the acts. With the advent of Iraq this has changed somewhat, but even so it is seen simply as physical evidence of everything Bin laden et al were talking about in the first place. The english (at least until the British Government censored the news reports more and more) understood why the IRA committed its acts of terrorism. They didnt' sympathise with them, they didnt agree with them, but they were aware that there was a counter argument to the reality they saw. Look at the history of Ireland, where most dont even know the true history of the conflict understand why they were fighting, its something that they're ingrained to know. As much as the air you breathe you absorb your countries values and personality through osmosis, and it isnt until you leave that space that you start to understand that layer you filter through. I can't speak for Spain, but I'd ask a Spaniard if he knew what the seperatist movement was about. Americans, in conversations about terrorism, are quick to point to other nations that we need to take terrorism seriously, that in a post 9/11 world we can't be too careful, that we need to stop these evil people. Perhaps we could start by stopping the demonization of Islam and realize that terrorism is a world wide problem that is based on differences in ideology, and that includes more than just religion. Yes, there are dangerous Islamic extremists, and they're getting our front pages. But there are also dangerous Catholic/Baptist/Protestant/Fundie christian extremists who commit acts of terrorism as often (bombing/burning abortion clinics, killing doctors) albeit with a smaller, less headline grabbing bodycount - or such dramatic visuals. Just as there are terrorists based on blood lines (Basque seperatists, the situation Bosnia/Serbia). It is everywhere, our reaction to that threat is a measure of both our awareness and maturity as a society. In a true sense American society (in other words, the man in the street) is having to catch up with the rest of the world, who've lived through their own struggles in their own countries, who understand from recent and past histories that nothing in life is certain and that while we hope for peaceful happy lives there is always a risk it could end in an instant due to the actions of a madman. I speak only from my experience of being an outsider around groups of Americans during both the Olympic bombing and 9/11 and sharing information and getting reactions from them, and my observations of American society in the last 4 years post 9/11 in comparison to European culture. I'm sorry to take this topic on a little joyride across varying tangents but I wanted to see where that was going. My main point was how tiring it is to see the arab world and muslims being singled out by people at the expense of thinking about the real issues in play with regards to terrorism, their ideologies and training, because my major concern is that while we're all paying attention to the little dark guy with the turban we're going to miss blue eyed blond haired Billy Bob who's fighting the US because of the injustices of Waco and the Oklahoma bombing "martyrs". TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #18 July 12, 2005 Dude, I just re-read Deuce's post. I don't see anywhere that he says something like "and of course all christians are good," or "it's only Muslims who are intolerant," or anything like that. Maybe you can point me to that part?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #19 July 12, 2005 Holy Crap Will! That?! I had to re-read it to find offense. Fuggetabout it. Like I said, I don't think the young men who are doing this stuff decided their course after reading the back of a breakfast cereal box. They've been being acclimated to it as soon as they learn to read, and they aren't allowed to read "Cat in the Hat" or watch "teletubbies". They are usually about 20 or so, and over here that would put them born about 1985 to parents mad that Reagan was president until 1989. Then they are still mad that Bush 41 gets the job for 4 years, but then maybe are mollified that Clinton gets the job from 93 to 2001. It has been my experience that Clinton was pretty well liked internationally (regardless of whatever foaming at the mouth reasons some of my compatriots just couldn't stand him) OK, so these boys started out under Reagan for 4 years, turned 8 when Clinton was the boss and learned how to drive a car bomb legally when Bush 43 won, or the pentaverate arranged with Sandra Day O'Connor for HW to become president. Some of these boys learned how to fly jets into buildings, and some learned how to destroy subway systems. It did not happen in a week or a month or a year. They were raised to it. The west is not prepared for this. We are a drive-through, what pill do I take to fix it now, what do you mean my connecting flight is an hour after I arrive? kind of people. Worse in the US, but it is a western thing. A 30 year old man who was raised to beleive the west is evil in a demonic was is going to be pretty hard to do business with. You tell your housemates to be ready! Some rumours that Herc may not happen because of the demands on their air force, but we'll find some excuse! JP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,588 #20 July 12, 2005 I don't think he's indicating that Deuce said so. It's just that Deuce only pointed out the anti-West training that some extremist Muslims received, and Alex is pointing out that it's not just Muslims. As he said, food for thought and discussion. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AlexCrowley 0 #21 July 12, 2005 QuoteDude, I just re-read Deuce's post. I don't see anywhere that he says something like "and of course all christians are good," or "it's only Muslims who are intolerant," or anything like that. Maybe you can point me to that part? I'm sorry Tom, I wasn't attacking Deuce or Christianity. I read Deuces post, thought it was pretty good and said I agreed with him. It wasn't even the attacking him about his statement regarding muslims, only his comment about the weird and terrifying thing of muslims being sent home to terrorist school. The rest of my post was an attempt to illustrate the fallacy that all terrorists are muslims (please review the current terrorist posts on this forum, but in my review of the threads I only saw mention of AQ and Muslims), and talk a little about ideology not having racial, nationalistic or religious limitations. As I stated within my post, I apologized for the examples using only Christianity as a representative religion, but being of British decent I grew up around Christianity and studied it I felt able to discuss what *I* consider to be perversions of Christianity. I also stated that I was sure people with knowledge of other faiths could discuss extremists there. Personally I dont know all the Jewish holidays so discussing Jewish extremism would be difficult for me to grasp or cover at any length. As for the rest of the post, it was just me seeing where things went.. Again, my apologies if you had misunderstood my intent or use of Deuces post as a springboard. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JanelleAgin 0 #22 July 12, 2005 If your terms of employment are to be at work till a certain prescribed time and they send you home early (for whatever reason), then it is only reasonable for them to pay you for the entire day. Even if this were not the case; the events of last thursday were extraordinary, and it would have been in poor taste for them not to show some concern and make extra concessions. I'm glad you weren't hurt and also that you're having good experiences with Americans - we're not all loud obnoxious gun-totin' Bush-lovin' republicans! hmm..I'm gonna get pummeled for that one.. "Hold on to the goodness in the people you connect with." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #23 July 12, 2005 QuoteI'm glad you weren't hurt and also that you're having good experiences with Americans - we're not all loud obnoxious gun-totin' Bush-lovin' republicans! hmm..I'm gonna get pummeled for that one.. Yes we are, dammit! Skreamer, come to Idaho, where the white guys with assault rifles live. We can chuck you off a bridge and unload a drum of 7.62 from the AK, all legally, and all within 10 miles of home.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #24 July 12, 2005 QuoteDude, I just re-read Deuce's post. I don't see anywhere that he says something like "and of course all christians are good," or "it's only Muslims who are intolerant," or anything like that. Maybe you can point me to that part? Yeah, Tom, that's why I pretty much don't visit here much. Lots of parsing for the joy of an internet argument where one participant is driven to exasperation and leaves and the other claims victory. Regarding Mr. Crowley's statement that everybody is guilty, I disagree. If the Unibomber, McVeigh, Eric Rudolph (abortion clinic and Olympic bomber) had all been acting under whatever the christian version of a fatwah is, we'd be rounding up those clergy members for conspiracy and they would have been charged as well. Regardless of their "religion" particularly that nutwad Rudolph there is no mainstream religious tolerance of their actions. If there is an Al Quaeda type of support structure for the McVeigh's and Rudolphs of the world, I'm unaware of it. I'm betting is has something to do with the Colonel with his wee beady eyes, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #25 July 12, 2005 QuoteSkreamer, come to Idaho, where the white guys with assault rifles live. We can chuck you off a bridge and unload a drum of 7.62 from the AK, all legally, and all within 10 miles of home. OK, that's on the road trip when he comes out! A drum though? That's a pretty tall bridge! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
AlexCrowley 0 #17 July 12, 2005 Quote The new and weird and terrifying thing is that western citizens, like that looney John Walker from Napa and the new group they found over in Lodi, CA have parents who send their kids to school in Pakistan and company to be educated that the west must be destroyed and all the territory taken during the crusades must be recovered and that all who do not convert to Islam must be killed. Yup, the meds are wearing off again...... I found the rest of your post very interesting and I share a lot of the same thoughts about the illusion of difference between left and right. Those with power use it for their own means, the polarization of the followers simply allows their continued existence. But with the greatest respect, I do feel strongly that this comment. I apologize to anyone who feels offended by the content of the rest of this post, it isnt intended to instigate but to generate discussion. I apologize for the length of it too. It may be true that muslims are sending their western raised children to be trained as terrorists but that is simply one side of the looking glass. There are as many white folks in the US, UK and Western Europe that are teaching their children similar values of hate and intolerance in the name of god. Sure, the vast majority are simply learning basic bigotry 101, be afraid of the unknown and turn that fear into aggression. BUT there are a hardcore group who are teaching their kids extremism of every stripe, these parents are part of every race, religion and nationality. Christian, Jewish, agnostics - the ideology differs but the hatred remains the same. My first memory of being in the US was driving down Main Street in Cheyenne Wy and seeing what I thought was a family church group having a picnic. On closer inspection they were holding signs with "AIDS KILLS FAGS" "AIDS -GODS MESSAGE TO FAGS" "GOD HATES FAGS". Nice and tolerant :-/ I mentioned on a previous thread: Olympic Bomber Eric Rudolph was a fundie christian who travelled in white supremacist circles and bombed abortion clinics because he believed it was against God. If your religion is a 'religion of peace and love' (tm George Bush) of *any* stripe does it not strike you as obscene that those who are in power would pervert those teachings into symbols of hate? Would you like to explain to the gay community that Christian politicians aren't preaching intolerance and bigotry but are simply telling us what God really meant? When Christian politicians equate gay marriage with marrying housepets or farm animals (yup, happened). Creationism? 60% of americans do not believe in Evolution as it is 'too complicated'. yes, an overwhelming majority of this 60% of respondents called themselves Christian. There are fights in several states courts over the need to teach Creationism/Intelligent Design in schools to balance out Science. Kansas has gained most of the press on this one. what does this have to do with the subject? The belief of a large cross section of society in one thing while another section whole heartedly rejects it. To someone outside of American religion (and trust me, its very different than european christianity) it's extremism. If you consider extremism to be holding a belief fanatically, often in the face of compelling evidence to the contrary. Lets look at something that Christians are very hot on: pornography and family values. These values include the protection of children from sexual images, and a way to protect children is to protect everyone from sexual images on broadcast television. Islam also has very strong rules on what is acceptable for a woman to show in public. The argument that censoring TV is different does not hold up once you consider that TV shapes the public conciousness and dictates taste and styles. How many generations would it take for Americans to have women dressing conservatively in public in its push for family values? Could it happen? The extreme christian right would like it that way because it is what they believe God intended. I do not mean to victimize Christianity here, but it's a religion that I have both been part of and know enough to talk about. I'm sure others could provide equal information regarding Jewish, Pagan and whatever-else extremism. Moving away from religion to political ideology: "If you want to insult the US then get out!" "Liberals are traitors!" or whatever else you see on political blogs nowadays. There are people on this forum who will argue until death that Rove is an evil criminal who exposed a CIA agent during a time of war. There are others who believe as passionately that Rove is innocent. Each of them is unable to dispassionately view the other argument, or to even hold it in their head long enough to take a second look, it's an immediate knee jerk "How the hell could anyone think that! They must be in league with bush|kerry". If a bunch of skydivers can be as passionate about something as trivial as some guy sending an email (I make no judgement as to the situations importance, only the respective sides reactions of defense and offence) can we begin to understand how someone half a world away, or half a state away can really feel about us? Each side is as guilty as the other. The west have standing armies to fill with their xenophobes and religious crusaders (certainly not the majority, but I think there have been enough propoganda reel footage of John Boy from AL talking about fighting for god and country - doesnt matter the truth of it, terrorists see it too without the mental filters we decode it with, they see weapons and someone talking about God and assume that he's not talking about Allah). The middle east, for thousands of years a tribal society, never cohesive enough to provide a united front have their terrorists. For *anyone* to claim that America was innocently sat there minding its own business as a superpower when it was heinously attacked has no knowledge of America's involvement in the middle east. Now, please note, I did not say 'America deserved being attacked' because I do not believe anyone deserves getting killed for any particular reason. However, the 'why me' syndrome that seems to be Joe Public's response to the attack with zero followup work by either press or public galls me no end. "They hate our freedoms" is a fairy tale told to children who refuse to grow up. "they" are not brown skinned, black skinned, yellow skinned or white skinned. They are all. There are many reasons Bin Laden and the middle east hate America, some perhaps justified, others definitely not, the majority - the ones that motivate terrorism, are - by and large, the intangibles, the ideologies rather than the acts. With the advent of Iraq this has changed somewhat, but even so it is seen simply as physical evidence of everything Bin laden et al were talking about in the first place. The english (at least until the British Government censored the news reports more and more) understood why the IRA committed its acts of terrorism. They didnt' sympathise with them, they didnt agree with them, but they were aware that there was a counter argument to the reality they saw. Look at the history of Ireland, where most dont even know the true history of the conflict understand why they were fighting, its something that they're ingrained to know. As much as the air you breathe you absorb your countries values and personality through osmosis, and it isnt until you leave that space that you start to understand that layer you filter through. I can't speak for Spain, but I'd ask a Spaniard if he knew what the seperatist movement was about. Americans, in conversations about terrorism, are quick to point to other nations that we need to take terrorism seriously, that in a post 9/11 world we can't be too careful, that we need to stop these evil people. Perhaps we could start by stopping the demonization of Islam and realize that terrorism is a world wide problem that is based on differences in ideology, and that includes more than just religion. Yes, there are dangerous Islamic extremists, and they're getting our front pages. But there are also dangerous Catholic/Baptist/Protestant/Fundie christian extremists who commit acts of terrorism as often (bombing/burning abortion clinics, killing doctors) albeit with a smaller, less headline grabbing bodycount - or such dramatic visuals. Just as there are terrorists based on blood lines (Basque seperatists, the situation Bosnia/Serbia). It is everywhere, our reaction to that threat is a measure of both our awareness and maturity as a society. In a true sense American society (in other words, the man in the street) is having to catch up with the rest of the world, who've lived through their own struggles in their own countries, who understand from recent and past histories that nothing in life is certain and that while we hope for peaceful happy lives there is always a risk it could end in an instant due to the actions of a madman. I speak only from my experience of being an outsider around groups of Americans during both the Olympic bombing and 9/11 and sharing information and getting reactions from them, and my observations of American society in the last 4 years post 9/11 in comparison to European culture. I'm sorry to take this topic on a little joyride across varying tangents but I wanted to see where that was going. My main point was how tiring it is to see the arab world and muslims being singled out by people at the expense of thinking about the real issues in play with regards to terrorism, their ideologies and training, because my major concern is that while we're all paying attention to the little dark guy with the turban we're going to miss blue eyed blond haired Billy Bob who's fighting the US because of the injustices of Waco and the Oklahoma bombing "martyrs". TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #18 July 12, 2005 Dude, I just re-read Deuce's post. I don't see anywhere that he says something like "and of course all christians are good," or "it's only Muslims who are intolerant," or anything like that. Maybe you can point me to that part?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #19 July 12, 2005 Holy Crap Will! That?! I had to re-read it to find offense. Fuggetabout it. Like I said, I don't think the young men who are doing this stuff decided their course after reading the back of a breakfast cereal box. They've been being acclimated to it as soon as they learn to read, and they aren't allowed to read "Cat in the Hat" or watch "teletubbies". They are usually about 20 or so, and over here that would put them born about 1985 to parents mad that Reagan was president until 1989. Then they are still mad that Bush 41 gets the job for 4 years, but then maybe are mollified that Clinton gets the job from 93 to 2001. It has been my experience that Clinton was pretty well liked internationally (regardless of whatever foaming at the mouth reasons some of my compatriots just couldn't stand him) OK, so these boys started out under Reagan for 4 years, turned 8 when Clinton was the boss and learned how to drive a car bomb legally when Bush 43 won, or the pentaverate arranged with Sandra Day O'Connor for HW to become president. Some of these boys learned how to fly jets into buildings, and some learned how to destroy subway systems. It did not happen in a week or a month or a year. They were raised to it. The west is not prepared for this. We are a drive-through, what pill do I take to fix it now, what do you mean my connecting flight is an hour after I arrive? kind of people. Worse in the US, but it is a western thing. A 30 year old man who was raised to beleive the west is evil in a demonic was is going to be pretty hard to do business with. You tell your housemates to be ready! Some rumours that Herc may not happen because of the demands on their air force, but we'll find some excuse! JP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,588 #20 July 12, 2005 I don't think he's indicating that Deuce said so. It's just that Deuce only pointed out the anti-West training that some extremist Muslims received, and Alex is pointing out that it's not just Muslims. As he said, food for thought and discussion. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #21 July 12, 2005 QuoteDude, I just re-read Deuce's post. I don't see anywhere that he says something like "and of course all christians are good," or "it's only Muslims who are intolerant," or anything like that. Maybe you can point me to that part? I'm sorry Tom, I wasn't attacking Deuce or Christianity. I read Deuces post, thought it was pretty good and said I agreed with him. It wasn't even the attacking him about his statement regarding muslims, only his comment about the weird and terrifying thing of muslims being sent home to terrorist school. The rest of my post was an attempt to illustrate the fallacy that all terrorists are muslims (please review the current terrorist posts on this forum, but in my review of the threads I only saw mention of AQ and Muslims), and talk a little about ideology not having racial, nationalistic or religious limitations. As I stated within my post, I apologized for the examples using only Christianity as a representative religion, but being of British decent I grew up around Christianity and studied it I felt able to discuss what *I* consider to be perversions of Christianity. I also stated that I was sure people with knowledge of other faiths could discuss extremists there. Personally I dont know all the Jewish holidays so discussing Jewish extremism would be difficult for me to grasp or cover at any length. As for the rest of the post, it was just me seeing where things went.. Again, my apologies if you had misunderstood my intent or use of Deuces post as a springboard. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JanelleAgin 0 #22 July 12, 2005 If your terms of employment are to be at work till a certain prescribed time and they send you home early (for whatever reason), then it is only reasonable for them to pay you for the entire day. Even if this were not the case; the events of last thursday were extraordinary, and it would have been in poor taste for them not to show some concern and make extra concessions. I'm glad you weren't hurt and also that you're having good experiences with Americans - we're not all loud obnoxious gun-totin' Bush-lovin' republicans! hmm..I'm gonna get pummeled for that one.. "Hold on to the goodness in the people you connect with." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #23 July 12, 2005 QuoteI'm glad you weren't hurt and also that you're having good experiences with Americans - we're not all loud obnoxious gun-totin' Bush-lovin' republicans! hmm..I'm gonna get pummeled for that one.. Yes we are, dammit! Skreamer, come to Idaho, where the white guys with assault rifles live. We can chuck you off a bridge and unload a drum of 7.62 from the AK, all legally, and all within 10 miles of home.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #24 July 12, 2005 QuoteDude, I just re-read Deuce's post. I don't see anywhere that he says something like "and of course all christians are good," or "it's only Muslims who are intolerant," or anything like that. Maybe you can point me to that part? Yeah, Tom, that's why I pretty much don't visit here much. Lots of parsing for the joy of an internet argument where one participant is driven to exasperation and leaves and the other claims victory. Regarding Mr. Crowley's statement that everybody is guilty, I disagree. If the Unibomber, McVeigh, Eric Rudolph (abortion clinic and Olympic bomber) had all been acting under whatever the christian version of a fatwah is, we'd be rounding up those clergy members for conspiracy and they would have been charged as well. Regardless of their "religion" particularly that nutwad Rudolph there is no mainstream religious tolerance of their actions. If there is an Al Quaeda type of support structure for the McVeigh's and Rudolphs of the world, I'm unaware of it. I'm betting is has something to do with the Colonel with his wee beady eyes, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #25 July 12, 2005 QuoteSkreamer, come to Idaho, where the white guys with assault rifles live. We can chuck you off a bridge and unload a drum of 7.62 from the AK, all legally, and all within 10 miles of home. OK, that's on the road trip when he comes out! A drum though? That's a pretty tall bridge! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
