Iraq and Iran?

[eaglenrider 0]

You know ,
The world is no longer a vaccum.
What happens in one part of the world effects other portions .

Considering the new alliance between the Iraq government and the Iranian government, could it be a possibility that todays London bombings were meant to resolve the British and American people to continue the war effort in Iraq?
It would be interesting if todays bombings were blamed on Iranians, wouldn't it?

Blues,
Cliff

[Anvilbrother 0]

I wish we could just all get along

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[eaglenrider 0]

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I wish we could just all get along

__________________________________________________

Your wish will come true ,Anvillbrother,when greed is a thing of the past.
When men see themselves as Brothers instead of someone to "get over on and subjugate".

The time is coming , Anvilbrother.
In the mean time don't give up your arms. They may be necessary to implement the change we seek .

Blues,
Cliff

[kelpdiver 2]

First thought in my mind was the French were still pissed about yesterday.

[eaglenrider 0]

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First thought in my mind was the French were still pissed about yesterday.

__________________________________________________

Probably a good Idea for you to eat "Freedom Fries" then Kelpdiver.

Fact is that there is over whelming evidence ,or at least grounds for wild speculation, to implicate the Jews in both the 9-11 and 7-7 attacks.
Not much credible evidence against Arabs .

Blues,
Cliff

[kelpdiver 2]

still using stinkbait?

[eaglenrider 0]

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still using stinkbait?

Beating your wife?

[kelpdiver 2]

Nope - your's.

Come on, you can do better than this.

[eaglenrider 0]

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Nope - your's.
Come on, you can do better than this.

__________________________________________________

You're right! I'll give you that!

So tell me .Kelp Diver,
How did Netenyahu recieve the warning ?

Officially it didn't come from Scotland Yard. Those incompetent bobbies were claiming it was a " power surge " for at least an hour!

I think we can rule out an Arab warning to the Israelis. Don't youi?
I mean really, do you think that Arabs would warn Israelis about an immenent attack?

So who warned the Israelis in London?
Could it be the Israelis who planned and executed the attack?
We know it wasn't Arabs, we know it wasn't the British.
Could it have been Isrealis?

Blues ,
Cliff

[kelpdiver 2]

I'm going back to blaming the French then. Since we know they're in bed with the Israelis, dating back to the development of their nuclear program, it's plain as day that the Jews found out about the frog plot and sent word along.

[billvon 3,080]

>Beating your wife?

This is your last warning. Cut it out.

[jdhill 0]

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Not much credible evidence against Arabs .

Except for that whole taking responsibility thing...

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[Michele 1]

Eaglenrider.

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How did Netenyahu recieve the warning ?

I googled 'Netanyahu warned london bombing,' no results about today's events.
I googled 'Netanyahu london bombing,' no results about today's events.
I used varient spellings (like you did) for Netanyahu, netenyaho, and so forth. You guessed it...no results.

So can I ask you two questions?

Where did you hear he was warned, and provide a link please?
And what, exactly, do you have against Jews?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Gravitymaster 0]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050707/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_britain_explosions_1

[eaglenrider 0]

[I googled 'Netanyahu warned london bombing,' no results about today's events.
I googled 'Netanyahu london bombing,' no results about today's events.
I used varient spellings (like you did) for Netanyahu, netenyaho, and so forth. You guessed it...no results.
__________________________________________________


Michelle,
here is a yahoo link to an AP report http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050707/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_britain_explosions_1

And the relevant text ;
Netanyahu Changed Plans Due to Warning By AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writer
Thu Jul 7, 7:14 AM ET



JERUSALEM - British police told the Israeli Embassy in London minutes before Thursday's explosions that they had received warnings of possible terror attacks in the city, a senior Israeli official said.

ADVERTISEMENT

Israeli Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had planned to attend an economic conference in a hotel over the subway stop where one of the blasts occurred, and the warning prompted him to stay in his hotel room instead, government officials said.

Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said he wasn't aware of any Israeli casualties.

Just before the blasts, Scotland Yard called the security officer at the Israeli Embassy to say they had received warnings of possible attacks, the official said. He did not say whether British police made any link to the economic conference.
__________________________________________________

Curious it is that for an hour during the attacks Scotland Yard was telling the people it was a power surge.
They also deny warning the Israelis.

So who told Netenyahu?

Figure that out and you'll have your bombers.

Blues,
Cliff


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[falxori 0]

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So who warned the Israelis in London?
Could it be the Israelis who planned and executed the attack?
We know it wasn't Arabs, we know it wasn't the British.
Could it have been Isrealis?

do you really believe this? i mean, do you REALLY believe that israel would plan such an attack, send its #2 to oversee it, and then publish he was warned in advance (which is still not factual)?
besides, how do you KNOW it wasnt the arabs?

your whole theory relies on the possibility that there was some kind of warning. well, a) as i've heard it, he was confied to his hotel room after the first explosion, and b) there are terror warnings all the time (and sometimes too many, where security forces want to cover their asses in case something happens.)

all these theories of israelis being warned in advance were heard after 9/11 also (and they were pure crap then too) and just that you know it there is a missing israeli woman in london too.

i've just returned from Madrid this morning, i was amazed to see that in a city that have experienced terror recently there is almost no security what so ever. this includes metro stations and the airport in which you can go almost go where ever you want unchecked.
its often said that the US took security checks to the extreme (although checking you 5 times before flight is not very useful imho), but europe is still in a state of denial.
there is a new force in the world. it seeks destruction and it will hit with out the need for an obvious reason.
and this force is not israel...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[ViperPilot 0]

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but europe is still in a state of denial.
there is a new force in the world. it seeks destruction and it will hit with out the need for an obvious reason.

Until the entire world starts playing hardball with terrorists, people will continue to die. The US is playing some hardball, several other countries are...but there needs to be more. It's slowly becoming us or them...which do all of you choose? Denial is a deadly game.

[AlexCrowley 0]

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Fact is that there is over whelming evidence ,or at least grounds for wild speculation, to implicate the Jews in both the 9-11 and 7-7 attacks.
Not much credible evidence against Arabs .

I'm sorry, but as someone who's read as much public information as is available, researched each theory (including the main conspiracy ones) I find that statement incredibly hard to swallow. I cannot speak for 7/7, but 9/11 being a Jewish plot? I know where you're coming from on this, but I would strongly argue that while there may be some circumstantial evidence that Isreal/Mossad knew beforehand about 9/11 there is little reason to assume active participation. I have seen little publicly documented evidence beyond 2nd hand hearsay and rumor, if you have reliable source material to the contrary I would appreciate links to it as 9/11 research is of continuing interest to me.

Remember, Mossad is commonly regarded as the best intelligence agency in the world. I wouldnt rule out their knowledge of either attack. On the other hand, I wouldnt rule out MI6 or the CIA having had knowledge of either 9/11 or 7/7 beforehand either. I dont say that from a conspiracy theory perspective, simply that there is a high probability that both agencies had enough pieces of the puzzle to see either attack...........once 20/20 hindsight was available.

Eaglenrider, I would agree that there are many questions left unanswered, and more than a few inconsistencies with the official story of 9/11. However, Isreal being responsible for 9/11 is a charge as well founded and realistic as 'the CIA used remote control planes' theory.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[AlexCrowley 0]

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i've just returned from Madrid this morning, i was amazed to see that in a city that have experienced terror recently there is almost no security what so ever. this includes metro stations and the airport in which you can go almost go where ever you want unchecked.
its often said that the US took security checks to the extreme (although checking you 5 times before flight is not very useful imho), but europe is still in a state of denial.

Respectfully I have to disagree with you here. Europe is not in a state of denial about terrorism, and to suggest so does a major disservice to the european public, their politicians and their intelligence services.

I realize that most Americans have not paid attention to the rest of the world, which is part of your news culture (I grew up in europe and have spent 10 years in the US so I speak from personal experience having witnessed this). While Arab terrorists are a hot button issue for the US the rest of Europe has faced terrorism for many decades. Spain in particular has a long history of dealing with ETA seperatists, who have been responsible for many bloody attacks over the last 40 years in Spain. http://www.teror.gen.tr/english/organisations/eta.html


What Spain, the UK and the rest of Europe discovered is that beyond vigilence there is no way to ensure that terrorist attacks can be stopped beyond long term intel gathering and awareness of the population. It isnt done by reducing the rights of the population, gathering data on every human being in your borders, or writing draconian bills that allow for secret police, secret searches and secret detentions.

The US have taken this approach towards a terrified, isolated and psychologically delicate populace and whipped them into a frenzy of fear with the use of repeated warnings, mistrust and propoganda to allow the passing of many laws that provide no real security.

1. Security checkpoints on planes and the removal of shoes, nail files do not prevent terrorism or attacks.
- In the vast majority of airplane hijackings over the last 40 years, weapons have been smuggled on board by the cleaning crew. Hijackings are rarely a 'spur of the moment' thing, they are carefully planned. Airplane cleaning crews are minimum wage jobs with companies being (usually) contracted third parties that hire minorities. It's never been too tough to infiltrate these crews and then leave weapons on the plane for someone to pick up later.

2. National ID cards - This law was just passed recently, your drivers license will now carry a lot more info about you. This will ensure safety for everyone.
- Um no it wont. Each of the hijackers on 9/11 had valid identification. Some were known terrorists, several were trained here in the US to fly. But they did have valid identification. Putting things on computer just makes it far easier to compromise the system and for people to have their identities stolen (and recycled for criminals and/or terrorists).

3. Threat warning system.
- Ummm. Definitely no help here, except to scare people even further, and maybe sell a little duct tape. Terrorism and threats to the public are a daily occurrence, its why we have intelligence agencies. The public doesnt need to know about anything until there's real information. For instance: how does it help me knowing that its situation orange, i mean in real terms? Do I hide in bed under my sheets? Do I get the day off work? Do I not go shopping? how exactly is this a help to me in any real and tangible way?

4. The Patriot act. Wow, you want to discuss Europeans not having a clue? This cobbled together piece of legislation that runs hundreds of pages just happens to be ready to be signed a few days after a major terrorist attack. What luck! Actually the patriot act is nothing more than a compilation of several scary bills which had been rejected previously because they were seen as unconstitutional infringements of our civil liberties. The fact that it passed in a few days without any review is something that shocked everyone who was paying attention. Under the new ruling: secret search and seizure, little oversight on wiretaps and surviellence, severe weakening of the Bill of Rights, spying on citizens, etc etc http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/usapatriot/default.html

Europe in denial? No, the public in europe accept that there are risks to breathing and that security cannot be legislated, and that life happens. The public, on the whole, tend to be more involved in politics and world events, which gives them a more realistic perspective with regards to security. Sharing borders and having several thousand years of history, wars, invasions, expansions allows for a cultural awareness that cannot be found in the US.

America is a very young country that is still finding its identity, as a society it looks to its government to provide security and protection from the outside world. It has no real history and due to its size and self-sufficiency has little reason to look outward to gain perspective.

From the rest of the worlds perspective it is the US and its populace who 'do not get it' and are 'living in denial' because they believe that enacting some laws will protect them, and by bombing as many dark skinned desert countries as possible will protect them.

When Bush announced that the US was starting a War On Terror I wondered if the US public would fall for it, or would ask questions. What is terror? (this was part of the other discussion on an earlier thread about AQ). A War against Terror is like a War Against Drugs, unwinnable. Terrorism is everywhere. Telling the world that you're shopping because you dont want the terrorists to win while asking your governement to restrict everything you do in the name of an illusive and impossible to get security seems to be a state of denial to me.

In very basic terms:

Security is exactly like skydiving. You can spend every waking hour worrying about the dangers and decide that you need to legislate against jumping out of planes, or you can pack carefully, take reasonable safety precautions, train well, and know what to do in an emergency and realize that while you've lowered the odds as much as you can there is still a significant risk by taking part - but thats the charge for admission.

[edited for spelling]

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Botellines 0]

Those islamic terrorists are living among us. It is not like we can build a wall around Madrid and keep them outside.

Sure we can send the army to every airport, train and subway, but then the next terrorist attack will be on a bus station or a mall while Madrid gets collapsed every morning due to long delays in check lines.

Besides, where do you draw the lines? should the army check just backpacks or maybe shoes as well, or you would rather go with the random full cavity search. Oh boy, how hard the terrorsist would laugh if they saw that.

There is no solution, but if choice was mine, i would increase intteligence about those groups rather than military presence in transport systems that will have no real effect.

By the way, today since the London terrorist attack we are on highest terrorist alert. You may not have seen the security forces, but i am sure they have seen you.

[kallend 2,112]

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Those islamic terrorists are living among us. It is not like we can build a wall around Madrid and keep them outside.

Sure we can send the army to every airport, train and subway, but then the next terrorist attack will be on a bus station or a mall while Madrid gets collapsed every morning due to long delays in check lines.

Besides, where do you draw the lines? should the army check just backpacks or maybe shoes as well, or you would rather go with the random full cavity search. Oh boy, how hard the terrorsist would laugh if they saw that.

There is no solution, but if choice was mine, i would increase intteligence about those groups rather than military presence in transport systems that will have no real effect.

By the way, today since the London terrorist attack we are on highest terrorist alert. You may not have seen the security forces, but i am sure they have seen you.

Just think what the $200B or so spent (wasted) in Iraq could have done to our intelligence gathering capacity.

Doesn't anyone in the administration ever wonder - why do these people hate us, and can we do anything about THAT?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ViperPilot 0]

Even I think we need to allocate more money to intelligence. We can fight terror with conventional war, but we can't completely win with conventional war. The challenge is to convince the terror organizations that attacking western civilization is not lucrative because there is something far better. We can only win this thing in the end by turning terrorist away from attacking us, and towards something that has a much greater benefit/value to them. Now, find that thing and you're golden. But until then...

[TomAiello 26]

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...I realize that most Americans have not paid attention to the rest of the world, which is part of your news culture...

You realize that this has nothing to do with "his" news culture, as the poster you are responding to is not an American, right?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[AlexCrowley 0]

For that I should apologize. It's simply that the content of this paragraph showed a level of ignorance of Spains dealings with terrorism, plus the common 'increasing security by limiting freedom is rational' stance that is commonly (not usually) seen by American posters who think they are knowledgable about security and international terrorism from watching the evening news and believing it.

The previous was not a backhanded insult to any poster here. It was simply an observation made from my experiences talking to Americans since 9/11/01 when a significant percentage of people became experts in security methods and international terrorism by watching CNN and Fox news for a few days. Whereas I am posting as someone who has been involved in the security field for over 15 years. [ disclosure: I work in information|technology security and study public security and intelligence as a by-product/side-line of that, as my work brings me into contact with those agencies] With respect Tom, just as you'd think I was an idiot if I tried pass myself off as someone who could make authoratative statements about skydiving (actually at this point if I tried to discuss *anything* about skydiving), I have a similar reaction when I read something as obviously inaccurate as falxori's post. I have bolded out the comments that led me to write the post below.

Of course, I shouldnt jump to conclusions about the nationality of a poster on an international board and apologize for that.

From the security industrys perspective (from the crypto and anti-virus guys on up thru physical security and counter terrorism) there is much concern about the quality of information that is broadcast to the public, because most of it is over simplified when it's correct, or dangerously innaccurate when it's incorrect or simply political spin - and post 9/11 there have been plenty of examples of both.

As far as Falxori's knowledge of terrorism from an Israeli point of view, I do not know, but I would be interested to hear.

But as usual, my meds wear off and I read a single post that gives me a place to jump off and go with it to see what happens.

Falxori, I apologize for calling you an american.


"i've just returned from Madrid this morning, i was amazed to see that in a city that have experienced terror recently there is almost no security what so ever. this includes metro stations and the airport in which you can go almost go where ever you want unchecked.

its often said that the US took security checks to the extreme (although checking you 5 times before flight is not very useful imho), but europe is still in a state of denial.

there is a new force in the world. it seeks destruction and it will hit with out the need for an obvious reason.
and this force is not israel... "

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[TomAiello 26]

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Of course, I shouldnt jump to conclusions about the nationality of a poster on an international board and apologize for that.

I actually often hit the profile link to check location, especially in this forum. We are all, to whatever extent, products of our environment, and I find it interesting to see how the viewpoints of various folks from different places reflect that. Personally, I expect that someone from Israel is likely to have much greater firsthand experience with terrorism and security than almost any of the rest of us.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com