Did Rove commit treason?

[EricTheRed 0]

What say you?

illegible usually

[jdhill 0]

Whether or not he outed Plame, he did not commit "Treason" by the legal definition.

I've heard the rumors about him being the source, but I have my doubts... if he were the one, I think it would have gotten out before the election... a Sr. Whitehouse advisor being outed as the guy who criminally leaked a CIA agent's name would have been sure to have some negative effects on the President's campaign... I doubt Time or NYT would have passed on the opportunity to launch the torpedo.

Edit to add... If he did leak it, he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[billvon 3,120]

>Whether or not he outed Plame . . .

Not too much doubt he did that. His attorney is laying the groundwork for the "ignorance of the law" defense. He's saying Rove "never knowingly disclosed classified information" which will become "he didn't really _know_ it was wrong to out a CIA operative" or "he didn't know she was really in the CIA" or whatever. But neither he nor his attorney is claiming he didn't do it.

[jdhill 0]

Like I said, if he did do it, charge him, and take him to trial... if he's guilty, throw the book at him... ignorance is no excuse... and if it was for political purpose, all the worse.

But in response to the original question of th e thread... even *if* he did do it, it is not Treason in a legal sense.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[wmw999 2,589]

Oh, don't worry. We'll hear more and more in the upcoming days about how she had no cover anyway, and how this was really at the direction of the now-discredited George Tenet, and all kinds of crap.

Just you wait. Shit never smelled so sweet.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[EricTheRed 0]

I think we have a winner!!!

illegible usually

[billvon 3,120]

>Just you wait. Shit never smelled so sweet.

It will be interesting to see conservatives heads explode when they discover that reporters for the "left wing liberal press" are willing to go to jail rather than expose Rove as a traitor. "But . . . but . . . who do we bash?"

[quade 4]

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>Just you wait. Shit never smelled so sweet.

It will be interesting to see conservatives heads explode when they discover that reporters for the "left wing liberal press" are willing to go to jail rather than expose Rove as a traitor. "But . . . but . . . who do we bash?"

Well, we -could- bash the second most guilty party in all of this, the guy that actually named her in the first place and the one that's not charged with -anything- Robert Novak.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[akarunway 1]

"ignorance of the law""Never worked for me" but Im just a pissant. BUT, I have a vote

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[jdhill 0]

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expose Rove as a traitor

Bill, you really need to look up the legal definition of Treason... there are two elements of the crime 1) waging war against the US, and 2) Providing aid and comfort to the enemy...

What Rove is rumored to have done meets neither of those elements... That does not mean it is not a crime, just not treason.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[kallend 2,151]

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expose Rove as a traitor

Bill, you really need to look up the legal definition of Treason... there are two elements of the crime 1) waging war against the US, and 2) Providing aid and comfort to the enemy...

What Rove is rumored to have done meets neither of those elements... That does not mean it is not a crime, just not treason.

J

To be a traitor it is sufficient, but not necessary, to commit the formal crime of treason. Bill just said he was a traitor: one who betrays a trust placed in him/her.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gmanpilot 0]

I don't know if he did or not, but guys like Rove don't make uninformed decisions. He has complete access to classified and compartmentalized information. If he outed her, he did it knowingly, and he won't be held accountable. At best, he will have his security clearance revoked and resign with the appreciation of a greatful administration.

What a bunch of thugs.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[EricTheRed 0]

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To be a traitor it is sufficient, but not necessary, to commit the formal crime of treason. Bill just said he was a traitor: one who betrays a trust placed in him/her

With that in mind I'll admit he's probably not a traitor. Those that trust Rove were (probably) not betrayed.

He might have tried to screw others and he may have committed an illegal act, but I for one never trusted him in the first place

illegible usually

[billvon 3,120]

>2) Providing aid and comfort to the enemy...

>What Rove is rumored to have done meets neither of those elements.

Revealing the name of an undercover CIA agent working against WMD proliferation isn't aiding our enemies?

What would you say if Ted Kennedy exposed the locations of monitoring devices we had in North Korea, to make the Bush administration look bad?

[jdhill 0]

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Revealing the name of an undercover CIA agent working against WMD proliferation isn't aiding our enemies?

In a tangible sense yes, in a legal sense not necessarily... If he had revealed the name to an agent of a specific enemy, perhaps...

The same would apply to your TK scenario... if he called the NK ambassedor and said "we have a bug in your office", that could qualify, if he said on the floor of the Senate that we have ways to listen to the NK ambassedor, maybe not... There is actually history of classified programs being outed by represenatives during budget debates...

Is it illegal, yes...

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Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982, codified as 50 U.S.C., Section 421 (a):

Protection of identities of certain United States undercover intelligence officers, agents, informants, and sources:

(a) Disclosure of information by persons having or having had access to classified information that identifies covert agent

Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified information that identifies a covert agent, intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent's intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined not more than $50,000 or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

Is it treason, no... If he did do it he should get 10 years and $50K for each person he told. If Bush knew he did it and did not fire him, or worse, directed it, he should be impeached.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[billvon 3,120]

>In a tangible sense yes, in a legal sense not necessarily...

OK, I agree with you there. I have little doubt that lawyers will successfully argue that it's not really treason.

[lawrocket 3]

I think this has greater similarities to "Watergate" than did the whole "Clinton/Lewinsky" scandal. This is a very trusted advisor and key strategist with the administration.

If Rove leaked the name, then all hell will break loose. And, all hell SHOULD break loose.

I will wanna know how Rove got the name. Was he looking for the name or information? Who gave Rove the information and what were the circumstances.

Once the leak was made, what did Rove's staff and underling's know? What did members of the Bush administration know? Was there any internal investigation as to what happened? What were the results? Did anyone finger Rove? Was his clearance taken?

All of these are pretty important issues dealing with abuse of power and NEED to be answered.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Channman 2]

Who cares, I certainly don't. Rove, please..sounds like another CBS story or something from the NYT, how many stories have they been found to have fabricated. Just as a thread has mentioned, if Rove was responsible for so called leaking her name as if no one else did not know who she was working for the liberal media would have hung him out to dry root.

[billvon 3,120]

>Rove, please..sounds like another CBS story or something from the
> NYT, how many stories have they been found to have fabricated.

Right, like those pesky reporters Woodward and Bernstein. If they had just kept their big yaps shut I'm sure everyone would have been better off.

>Just as a thread has mentioned, if Rove was responsible for so
>called leaking her name as if no one else did not know who she was
>working for the liberal media would have hung him out to dry root.

Hold onto your head - the bleeding heart liberal media is _protecting_ him. They actually seem to hold their principles above politics. Which has been very rare recently.

[Channman 2]

They don't seem to be doing a very good job. They appear to have already spilled the beans to you. Better make sure the judge doesn't bring you into this. Oh, by the way, the source has given them permission to bring him/her out before the Grand Jury. Thats why one choose to testify and the other jail.

Still trying to figure that one out.

[billvon 3,120]

>They appear to have already spilled the beans to you.

Actually it was Rove's lawyer who spilled the beans two days ago. But I'm sure that the right wingers here will continue to blame the "liberal left-leaning press" for something.

[Channman 2]

To error is human, to blame someone else is more human.

Well I'm sure it will all be brought into the light soon.

cheers

[kallend 2,151]

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>They appear to have already spilled the beans to you.

Actually it was Rove's lawyer who spilled the beans two days ago. But I'm sure that the right wingers here will continue to blame the "liberal left-leaning press" for something.

The right wingers probably don't know about it because FOX News has, alone among the major media, been silent on the Rove connection.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tbrown 26]

It will be interesting to see conservatives heads explode when they discover that reporters for the "left wing liberal press" are willing to go to jail rather than expose Rove as a traitor. "But . . . but . . . who do we bash?"

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Quote

>They appear to have already spilled the beans to you.

Actually it was Rove's lawyer who spilled the beans two days ago. But I'm sure that the right wingers here will continue to blame the "liberal left-leaning press" for something.

The right wingers probably don't know about it because FOX News has, alone among the major media, been silent on the Rove connection.

Must be a conspiracy, then, because a quick scan of MSNBC, CNN, ABC etc. show no references either. Do you think this whitewash of such an important story on all major networks has been orchestrated by Rove? Sounds like something he'd be behind doesn't it?