Ron 10 #51 June 30, 2005 Quote>Can anyone show me one verse in the OT or NT that supports homosexuality? ?? There's nothing in there about skydiving, 747's or nuclear fusion either. I don't know of anyone who claims that all those things are therefore evil. You also can't show a single verse that claims those are sins....You know that the Bible does in fact say that Hohosexuality is a sin. Nice try, but not even close. Quote> then you can't have views that are against what the Bible says. You have said that you don't think gays should be killed. Contradicts Leviticus. Indeed, any church that allows gays to live is contradicting the bible. But most people have figured out that the bible is not to be followed literally, and contains a lot of outdated stuff. Then those that claim to be Christian and pick and choose what they want to follow and what they want to ignore are not true Christians. I don't think Homosexuals are to be killed, but I also don't believe in the Bible and don't claim to be a Christian or Jew. I didn't see anywhere in the Bible where it says you can pick and choose what you want to follow, and what you can ignore."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #52 June 30, 2005 >Then those that claim to be Christian and pick and choose what they >want to follow and what they want to ignore are not true Christians. Then no current religion falls under your heading of "true Christian," although all claim to be. Given that, I see nothing wrong with accepting gay members of the congregation and clergy. >I didn't see anywhere in the Bible where it says you can pick and >choose what you want to follow, and what you can ignore. You literally can't believe everything in the Bible. Genesis 1 says creation happened in this order: -earth -trees -stars -animals -man and woman Genesis 2 says things happened in this order: -earth and heavens -rain -man -trees -rivers -woman So if you believe the order of creation in Genesis 1, you have to disbelieve the order of Genesis 2 - if you choose to interpret everything in the Bible literally. So you either have to say "well, it's not 100% literally accurate, it's more of an approximation" or you have to pick one and claim the other is wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #53 June 30, 2005 QuoteWhen has 100% of the population ever voted? Enough people voted to outlaw interracial marriages in many states. Billvon is correct the majority in this country did not want interracial marriages. Just like less than 100 years ago the majority did not want women to vote. The 19th barely passed 2/3rsd by two votes in the Senate. "Enough People" does not equal "majority" no matter how much fun it is to say that. Also you are only talking of particular states. How do you know that "the majority" at those times just didn't have an opinion either way and -didn't vote at all- You have no statistics to determine what people felt 100 years ago. Or are you guys combination mindreaders/time travelers? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #54 June 30, 2005 QuoteI still don't see why it's wrong for gays to gather in their chosen place of worship and have their own church. Actually, I don't see why "they" can't go to "our" churches. However, I do understand wanting to be with a group of like-minded people who share your same beliefs. I don't see a problem with it either....However they really should not claim to be Christian when the Bible clearly states that Homosexuality is wrong. That would be like a person who thinks jumping is stupid and would never do it calling themselves a 'Skydiver'. You can claim it all day long, but when your life does not match your claims no matter how much you want it, it is not true. QuoteAs far as I know, no two religions believe the same thing Several 'new' religions have been started over things such as "what does Baptized really mean? does it mean duncked under water, sprinkled with water, babtized by fire...ect?" But none are directly against the words of the Bible. The Church of England seperated and was created to allow the King to get divorced...Instead of killing his ex wives. Still its been a bunch of years since I have read the Bible, but I think the Bible does not say anything about divorce being bad...In fact you can get divorced if you are Jewish. The Talmud specifically says that a man can divorce a woman because she spoiled his dinner or simply because he finds another woman more attractive, and the woman's consent to the divorce is not required. In fact, Jewish law requires divorce in some circumstances: when the wife commits a sexual transgression, a man must divorce her, even if he is inclined to forgive her. The NT does not really say anything about divorce. One view is God allows divorce and remarriage for three conditions: (a) adultery, (b) desertion of a believing spouse by an unbelieving spouse, and (c) if a person becomes saved after they were divorced because when they accept Christ they are beginning life anew Mattew: Quote19:6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate." 19:7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?"8 19:8 Jesus9 said to them, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hard hearts,10 but from the beginning it was not this way. 19:9 Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery." So the bible does allow divorce, so the Church of England had some proof. The Bible Clearly says Homosexuality is wrong. QuoteDo the gay people believe the Bible says homosexuality is a sin? It is clearly a sin according to the Bible. Old Testament: Leviticus 18:22, 29; 20:13; Genesis 19 Also 18 New Testament: Romans 1:26-27 Quote1:26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones,1 1:27 and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women2 and were inflamed in their passions3 for one another. Men4 committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. , 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Timothy 1:10; and see also Jude 7. Its pretty hard to claim that the Bible says its OK."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #55 June 30, 2005 I sometimes think that rather a few hot-button issues are but red herrings to keep the focus off the potentially insoluble problems we would just as soon ingore. Beyond the fact that I am entirely uninterested in having anything personally to do with homosexual marriage (or any other kind of homosexual relationship), I am wildly indifferent. If you are gay and want to be married as well, fine, knock yourself out. So long as everything is between consenting adults, you are on your own. I figure that it is of primary importance that people who see things differently than do I (read: 99+% of the population) should see fit to leave me to my own devices so long as I do not involve them. I thus try to grant the same leeway to pretty much everyone else. On the one hand, I oppose persecution of gays. OTOH, I like the idea of people doing whatever is necessary to spare me the details (I really don't want to know the specifics of what does or does not happen behind closed doors). At any rate, there have been people of all kinds of sexual persuasions through the centuries. I'll take peaceful (and discreet) gays over forceful/violent heteros any day. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #56 June 30, 2005 QuoteSo if you believe the order of creation in Genesis 1, you have to disbelieve the order of Genesis 2 - if you choose to interpret everything in the Bible literally. So you either have to say "well, it's not 100% literally accurate, it's more of an approximation" or you have to pick one and claim the other is wrong. Well Jews tend to go with the OT, and Christians the NT. However, the difference between Genesis and Romans is one is "History" and the other is "orders" on how to live your life. Bill you can't for ONE second claim that anywhere in the Bible that it says Homosexuality is OK. Now, since the Bible clearly says Homosexuality is wrong, then a church cannot claim to be Christian (Or Jewish) if the allow it. Old Testament: Leviticus 18:22, 29; 20:13; Genesis 19 (see also Genesis 18 for the context and problem of unrighteousness that existed in Sodom and Gomorrah). New Testament: Romans 1:26-27 (Both lesbian and homosexual activities are condemned in these verses and shown as a further result of turning away from God. God only approves of monogamous, heterosexual relationships in marriage, condemning fornication and adultery before marriage and within marriage.); 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Timothy 1:10; and see also Jude 7. QuoteThen no current religion falls under your heading of "true Christian," although all claim to be. Given that, I see nothing wrong with accepting gay members of the congregation and clergy. Then it is clear none of the modern religions are true."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #57 June 30, 2005 QuoteYou know that the Bible does in fact say that Hohosexuality is a sin. Hohosexuality??? Sounds like it has something to do with sex and Santa Claus... Now that's kinky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #58 June 30, 2005 QuoteHohosexuality??? Sounds like it has something to do with sex and Santa Claus... Now that's kinky Never underestimate little men with pointy toe shoes"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #59 June 30, 2005 QuoteOr are you guys combination mindreaders/time travelers? You dont have to be either to read up on history. Look up the Gallup interracial marriage poll in 1958. QuoteNinety-four percent of whites disapproved of interracial marriages (Gallup). Is 94% a majority? Interracial marriages was enough of a an issue for the SC to step in. At one point in time 41 states outlawed interracial marriage. Are you telling me that if the majority wanted to legalize interracial marriage that these states would not have outlawed it. QuoteYou have no statistics to determine what people felt 100 years ago Yeah we do. It's written down in history books. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #60 June 30, 2005 It's simple - close minded ignorant people will force others via law to do what they want. Why? Because it makes them uncomfortable and nothing else. Conservatives love to drown other peoples freedoms and rights in their beliefs. There is NOTHING wrong with same-sex couples wanting to pair up and get the same benefits as current married couples. If the church doesn't want to accept it - fine. That's religion. But when the gov't bans a civil union on religious beliefs??? That is un-American as you can get. Besides - why stop anyone from happiness? What give you the right to do so? Over 51% of this country gets marriage wrong. Why knock down anyone that wants to try to get it right and make it work? Bravo to Canada and Spain._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #61 June 30, 2005 QuoteThere is NOTHING wrong with same-sex couples wanting to pair up and get the same benefits as current married couples It is if you believe in the Bible. I however am a heathen, so I really don't care. But it must suck to claim to be a Christian and then ignore the Bible when you feel like it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #62 June 30, 2005 >Now, since the Bible clearly says Homosexuality is wrong, then a >church cannot claim to be Christian (Or Jewish) if the allow it. Per your definitions. Methodists have gay priests. You can claim that their religion is therefore invalid, but I have a feeling they may not heed your invalidation of their religion. >Then it is clear none of the modern religions are true. Again, per your definitions. Which is fine - you can decide that none or true, or all are true, or one is true, or even decide to start your own religion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #63 June 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteThere is NOTHING wrong with same-sex couples wanting to pair up and get the same benefits as current married couples It is if you believe in the Bible. I however am a heathen, so I really don't care. But it must suck to claim to be a Christian and then ignore the Bible when you feel like it. That is good for religion, like I said. However, this country is not ruled by what the Bible says. It also sucks when people use Christianity as an excuse to be ignorant, prejudice and racist. These are only some of the many reasons I separated myself from the Catholic Church. Also, you can live a good, moral, Christian life without ever having to rely upon the written word or a brick building. To limit yourself to those things works against you. These are mortal establishments that only serve as blinders for those that decide to live by the preachings of Jesus. I have my own beliefs, my own ideas of what is moral (I am NOT religious at all - that was a former life of mine) - I do not force them upon anyone. However, I am an American and believe in the written words of this gov't - esp the ones about freedom of speech/expression and seperation of church/state._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 104 #64 June 30, 2005 The bible also says the the following people should be stoned publicly: Any woman or man caught commiting adultery Anyone preaching or practicing a different religion Anyone commiting blasphemy Any man who does not obey the sabbath Stubborn or rebelious children I can go on and on. Are you saying that anyone who does not stone to death the people listed above are not true christians or jews? Sorry, but you know me personally and you know that this is a sore subject with me. Those of you that know me know that I am a straight male who grew up in a household with 2 mothers. My mother has been with the same woman for over 25 years. They own houses, cars and businesses together. Between the two of them they have raised 5 well adjusted and reasonably successful children. The fact that they don't have the same legal rights as any other couple is disgraceful.Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #65 June 30, 2005 QuotePer your definitions Per the Bible. It must suck to base your religion on something, then ignore parts of it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #66 June 30, 2005 QuoteIt also sucks when people use Christianity as an excuse to be ignorant, prejudice and racist. These are only some of the many reasons I separated myself from the Catholic Church. The same reason I am not religious. QuoteAlso, you can live a good, moral, Christian life without ever having to rely upon the written word or a brick building. Sorry that I don;t buy...OK I don't think you need to go to church, but you can't claim to be 'Christ like' and not listen to what he said. I'm sorry you think I was talking about you...I was not. It was an "in general" comment about how some think you can be "Christian" while you are in fact not at all like the Bible tells you to be."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #67 June 30, 2005 QuoteQuotePer your definitions Per the Bible. How is it then several variations of Christianity come up with their own version of the book and what it is trying to say? If I wanted to, I could put together my own belief structure based off one of the bible variants, file as a church with the gov't and be an official religion. It is that subjective and changes that easily. The Catholic Church is KNOWN for changing it's rules when it needs to - what is wrong with those in the seats doing the same thing. There is NOTHING that seperates the Pope from any other Catholic. Nothing._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #68 June 30, 2005 QuoteThe bible also says the the following people should be stoned publicly: Any woman or man caught commiting adultery Anyone preaching or practicing a different religion Anyone commiting blasphemy Any man who does not obey the sabbath Stubborn or rebelious children I can go on and on. Are you saying that anyone who does not stone to death the people listed above are not true christians or jews? Pretty much, yeah. QuoteSorry, but you know me personally and you know that this is a sore subject with me. Those of you that know me know that I am a straight male who grew up in a household with 2 mothers. My mother has been with the same woman for over 25 years. They own houses, cars and businesses together. Between the two of them they have raised 5 well adjusted and reasonably successful children. The fact that they don't have the same legal rights as any other couple is disgraceful. Well you can't really count you as 'well adjusted' I don;t really have a dog in this fight. Like I have said several times I don't care and unless I am forced to make a choice, I will not bother. I have also said that I think that same sex couples should have the rights, but I don't see it as marriage since that is religion. I have also said that the biggest problem is the militant of any group that uses the "Your an idiot if you don't agree with me", "you are an asshole if you don't agree with me", or "You are uncivilized if you don't agree with me" lines... You know we both know the same people that are gay...you also know I treat them based on nothing but personality. I find it funny that some many claim that they are "Christian" but ignore the bible when it suits them. And even funnier when they claim that they are correct when the Bible clearly says the opposite."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #69 June 30, 2005 QuoteSorry that I don;t buy...OK I don't think you need to go to church, but you can't claim to be 'Christ like' and not listen to what he said. Exactly what did he say? How do you know which version of the bible to believe? What about the disputed apocryphal gospels? To believe that the written word is infallible and really the words of Christ is where the leap of faith comes in. Without that faith it might as well be a really bad work of fiction._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #70 June 30, 2005 QuoteHow is it then several variations of Christianity come up with their own version of the book and what it is trying to say? Please, you know more about the Bible than me...Show me ONE verse where homosexuality is OK. QuoteIf I wanted to, I could put together my own belief structure based off one of the bible variants, file as a church with the gov't and be an official religion. It is that subjective and changes that easily. But my stance is that if your tenet is 180 from what the Bible says then you are false...In fact there is plenty about "false prophets" in the Bible. Yes, you could start a religion ACCORDING TO THE GOVERNMENT...but not according to God if you don't obey his laws. QuoteThe Catholic Church is KNOWN for changing it's rules when it needs to - what is wrong with those in the seats doing the same thing. There is NOTHING that seperates the Pope from any other Catholic. Nothing. And the Catholic Chuch is about as far removed from the Bible as you can get."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #71 June 30, 2005 QuoteI have also said that I think that same sex couples should have the rights, but I don't see it as marriage since that is religion. That is the issue I have here. I don't care if a non-profit, private organization wants to be selective on who it allows to eat it's bread and drink it's wine. But our gov't is flat out denying civil unions - based on what reasons? From where I stand it seems to be due to their faith and what their church is telling them. That is not right._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 104 #72 June 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteI have also said that I think that same sex couples should have the rights, but I don't see it as marriage since that is religion. That is the issue I have here. I don't care if a non-profit, private organization wants to be selective on who it allows to eat it's bread and drink it's wine. But our gov't is flat out denying civil unions - based on what reasons? From where I stand it seems to be due to their faith and what their church is telling them. That is not right. You beat me to it, so all I can say is....yeah what he said!Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #73 June 30, 2005 Quotebut not according to God if you don't obey his laws Who's laws? Did he tell them to you? Is their proof of this entity writing them down? If not, why argue over the validity of what's in the bible?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #74 June 30, 2005 QuoteExactly what did he say? How do you know which version of the bible to believe? What about the disputed apocryphal gospels? Please like I said find me one verse where it says homosexuality is OK....Use the apocrypal gospals also. QuoteTo believe that the written word is infallible and really the words of Christ is where the leap of faith comes in. Without that faith it might as well be a really bad work of fiction. It think it was the first self help book ever written...But then again I don't claim to follow it and at the same time ignore it. (Not saying you do, but you can't claim to be Christian and support gays, idol worship, murder, false gods ect)"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #75 June 30, 2005 Bo this is not diracted at you but everyone One little problem What would happen how would you know how is really a civil union and who is just getting a tax brake. What if me and a friend (male or female) decide hey lets pretend we have a civil union just for the tax benefits? How would you determine who is real and who is just trying to get a free ride. That really is questions and not a wise ass remark. I am for civil unions but I am against the law forcing it on a religion.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
