Vallerina 2 #1 June 28, 2005 Since many people believe that their feelings for flags are justifiable means for laws, my question is when will they outlaw the Confederate flag? It is pretty much the Anti-American flag. It represents one of the worst times our country has ever had. It is highly offensive to many. You could even argue that flying a flag which represents a dis-union of our country is even more anti-American than burning a flag. (Disclaimer: I'm not for outlawing the Confederate flag even if it is offensive.)There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #2 June 28, 2005 The Confederate flag will never be officially outlawed. Private possession and use of the flag will always be a right. However, you won't find it in any government buildings. They will all be outlawed there. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #3 June 28, 2005 Im not for outlawing it, and I don't find it offensive."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #4 June 28, 2005 QuoteThe Confederate flag will never be officially outlawed. Private possession and use of the flag will always be a right. However, you won't find it in any government buildings. They will all be outlawed there. Yeah, I know. Basically, I'm not saying that I think it should be outlawed or that it will. I'm saying that if someone wishes to outlaw symbols, then why would they want to keep the Confederate flag legal?There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #5 June 28, 2005 QuoteI'm saying that if someone wishes to outlaw symbols, then why would they want to keep the Confederate flag legal? who is trying to outlaw symbols? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 June 28, 2005 Quotethen why would they want to keep the Confederate flag legal? Its still perfectly legal to have nazi symbols and memorabilia right? Its still perfectly legal to have a cross. Its still perfectly legal to have a star of david. All of those symbols offend someone. They're not illegal, You can own just about anything you want, although they may not be displayed in government buildings (or they might for a short time). I give this thread a "meh" as well as only a 3 out of 10 for trolling.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #7 June 28, 2005 QuoteYeah, I know. Basically, I'm not saying that I think it should be outlawed or that it will. I'm saying that if someone wishes to outlaw symbols, then why would they want to keep the Confederate flag legal? Why would you want Malcom X's symbol? Why would you want the little support our troops ribbon? Why would someone put the USPA wings on their car? People use symbols to express an attachment. And unlike what some think the Confederate flag is not about racism."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #8 June 28, 2005 Ack! No one seems to be getting my point! I AM NOT WANTING TO OUTLAW THE CONFEDERATE FLAG! However, if you want to outlaw burning personal property because it offends you, then why not outlaw owning personal property beacause it's equally as offensive?There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #9 June 28, 2005 Quote Ack! No one seems to be getting my point! No, I get it, I just think that you're not a very good troll. It was a decent idea for a trolling post, to get people riled up and such, you just don't know how to troll very well.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #10 June 28, 2005 ***No, I get it, I just think that you're not a very good troll. It was a decent idea for a trolling post, to get people riled up and such, you just don't know how to troll very well. That pretty much sums it upMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hackb431 0 #11 June 28, 2005 I am tracking with your point. My take on it is; being able to legally offend someone is part of what makes this a great country. I am not sure when people got so uptight about EVERYTHING? Relax people, think about it if everyone had the same views, ideas, and thought processes we would never progress. It is these opposing views and our ability to express them that has launched us forward. Although if I could change one thing I would make it so that all the women in this country were madly in "lust" with me. Instead of the underage ones that seem to haunt me at every turn.HackB A.K.A. "Puppy" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #12 June 28, 2005 I know Vallerina's point. There are plenty out there who want this flag banned. I'm talking destroyed. There are many places in Europe where Nazi symbolism is banned. I am POSITIVE that there is a large group of people out there who want the same thing done to the Confederate flag. It won't be banned. But there is presently a building social stigma, especially among the PC crowd and popular media, attached to those who would have the insensitivity to display such a symbol. It won't be banned, but it might as well be. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #13 June 28, 2005 Oh I am getting your point. Some people find it offensive, so why not ban it? Why would you want Malcom X's symbol? Why would you want the little support our troops ribbon? Why would someone put the USPA wings on their car? Why have a cross? Why have a Star of David? All of these are symbols, and all of them are offensive to someone. If you want to ban everthing that upsets your delicate sensabilities....There would be nothing left. People use symbols to express an attachment. And unlike what some think the Confederate flag is not about racism, so why focus on banning it? Might as well ban Crosses, The Star of David, The "X" of Malcom X, the troop supprt ribbons, the aids awareness ribbons, breast cancer ribbons, Human rights watch flag, the gay pride rainbow....I could go on for days at symbols that others don't like but should not be banned. Why the hard on for the Confederate flag? Edit: I also think you are trolling."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #14 June 28, 2005 Well first you are making the assumption that owning property is the same as destroying it as a statement. I personally think they are very different. But...that aside, if for no other reason, you cannot just erase parts of history. And yes, yes, I know...the victors write the history. Be that as it may, if you start outlawing things where does it end? Who decides what is offensive and what isn't? The next thing you know, you are living in an Orwellian society: He who controls the past controls the future, he who controls the present controls the past. If you were to purge or distance yourself from symbols of history, what would be missing, what would people not see to avoid next time. Either way, regardless of all the theoretical thought, the idea that you can outlaw symbols is a very very dangerous one. Actions yes, symbols (particularly as private property) ? The fact that you even think it is likely or possible goes against everything I hope we still harbor under the auspices of Liberty. But....I am not really that surprised. EDIT: Oh yeah, my troll-o-meter is showing a troll too.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #15 June 28, 2005 I'm not reading "troll" of off her post. Personally, I think she's got a good question here. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #16 June 28, 2005 Quote I'm not reading "troll" of off her post. Personally, I think she's got a good question here. I seriously don't see her as posing this as a good question, just one to get folks worked up and have a thread go ballistic. Trolling. That's the first thing that came to mind upon reading her initial post, that was 100% reinforced by her second post.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #17 June 28, 2005 Well good for you....a few of the rest of us think it is a trolling question. Besides, any meat in the question, even you answered in your first post, it will never be outlawed. And while I have no desire to debate it...the flag was for a country that attempted sovereignty. We gonna outlaw all of the flags of country that were beaten in wars because their view proved to be wrong/dangerous for the masses? Quotetroll 1. v.,n. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase “trolling for newbies” which in turn comes from mainstream “trolling”, a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also YHBT. 2. n. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, “Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll.” Compare kook. -- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #18 June 28, 2005 Some people like to explore situations/whatever that they see as somewhat parallel to controversial ones to fill out their understanding. It's not trolling when done for that reason. I didn't see it as trolling either. The other thing about a real troll is that they keep egging on and saying stupid stuff. Val hasn't been doing that -- she's trying to see if there's a parallel. Maybe there isn't, but it's worth understanding if you think that way. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #19 June 28, 2005 I respect your views and I respect Val's. But the question was succintly answered in a few posts. Not much food for thought. I could ask when we were gonna outlaw the n-word or chink, but I think it would be a fruitless conversation. I could ask when women were gonna start clinging to equal rights because some people find it offensive; equally fruitless. But because of the emotional stigma attached that make great flame bait. And based on Vallerina's post history....well....emotional posts are not exactly infrequent. Interestingly enough I recently tried to argue a point about outlawing cell phones during driving, compared to street racing, and from some of the same people in this thread, took a beating for even comparing the two. So, yeah I see some disparity in seeking nice little parrallels. Some posters have never been interested in views outside their own.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #20 June 28, 2005 Depends on whose feelings it is. I can see the parallel in here in a way (maybe "that which offends should be outlawed"), but just as legislating against desecrating the US flag in private won't ever be possible until we register all flags , legislating against owning a Confederate flag also won't be. Display on government buildings possibly. And yes, people who say that feelings about the US flag should make laws might be a little hypocritical when they say that others' feelings about the Confederate flag are unimportant. Feelings are feelings, and no one can take them away from you. I'd rather people were able to enforce some sort of standard of conduct that respecting others' feelings was worthwhile, even when you don't agree with them. At least to some degree. You can't legislate it, because there are people who have strong feelings about the weirdest things. And whose feelings are more important? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #21 June 28, 2005 QuoteSince many people believe that their feelings for flags are justifiable means for laws, my question is when will they outlaw the Confederate flag? It is pretty much the Anti-American flag. It represents one of the worst times our country has ever had. It is highly offensive to many. You could even argue that flying a flag which represents a dis-union of our country is even more anti-American than burning a flag. (Disclaimer: I'm not for outlawing the Confederate flag even if it is offensive.) As soon as they get rid of that "free-speech + expression" thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genoyamamoto 0 #22 June 28, 2005 QuoteHowever, if you want to outlaw burning personal property because it offends you, then why not outlaw owning personal property beacause it's equally as offensive? Because there is a double standard. Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #23 June 28, 2005 Just for the record destroying property publically is not quite the same as simply owning it. Much like public intoxication is not the same as owning alcohol. Becuase of the complexity of the issue, I am undecided on the flag descration issue, so I am not trying to argue for it. Simply suggesting that you are comparing apples to oranges, hence the 'double standard'-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwtom 0 #24 June 28, 2005 QuoteSince many people believe that their feelings for flags are justifiable means for laws, my question is when will they outlaw the Confederate flag? ... not so fast ... not so fast ... we're barely there that Confederate flags disappeared from state flags. The Georgia Legislature finally removed it with a lot of wincing in 2003, but the people of Mississippi decided in 2001 to keep a good sized confederate flag (ironically called "union square") in their state flag. Alabama's "Crimson cross of St. Andrew" also has some hard to overlook resemblance with the Confederate battle flag. Right now we should be content that burning a Confederate flag is not a capital crime (though it may draw a lynch mob) On another note - I really have to know this since my wife often gets desparate with me because I tend to use the wrong detergents for all sorts of stuff: Would it be considered a desecration of the flag if I washed it with Chlorox (rather than Woolite) and, as a result, bleach and bleed out the colors? Would they be able to prosecute me under the proposed constitutional amendment if I screw up in the laundry room? Cheers, T ******************************************************************* Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,596 #25 June 28, 2005 QuoteAs soon as they get rid of that "free-speech + expression" thing. Since it will be circumvented to make flag burning illegal, whats the problem with circumventing it to make confederate flags illegal? These things are usually far easier to do the second time. I think thats the whole point of Vals post. Edit: Jees, have none of you guys ever heard of playing devils advocate?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
