christelsabine 1 #326 June 24, 2005 Quote Quote the greatest nation on the face of the earth Just out of curiosity... which nation do you think is the greatest? My guess is you'll say Spain... although I could be wrong because I've never met you... I think most people tend to think their nation is the greatest, other wise they would try to move to the one that they think is... J There only is one on earth (ask Frenchy, he will confirm): La Grande Nation = France. But, much more I tend to think: my nation is the greatest.... Except to Canada, I would not like to move to another country. Oh yeah. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #327 June 25, 2005 It's all about posturing politicians pandering to jingoism. The flag is just a bit of cloth. The substance, not the symbol, is what's important. Worst thing we did is rebuild DC after the Brits burned it in 1814. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #328 June 25, 2005 Quote Just playing man.. I won't act like the other cry babbies in here Just playing man...but I hope you saved one of those 'Hooked on Phonics' for yourself. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #329 June 25, 2005 Quote Just playing man...but I hope you saved one of those 'Hooked on Phonics' for yourself.Wink LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #330 June 25, 2005 Quote Quote and those of you that want to feed off of the constitution and burn flags, don't call yourselves americans, because your not. AGREED 100%. I have no interest in burning flags, but I have quite a bit of interest in not wanting more government interference in our lives. The beauty of free expression is that it allows for the expression of unpopular ideas without fear of government reprisals. We live in a country in which the will of the majority is forced upon the minority--at least that's the theory anyway. I think it is vitally important that minority opinions (as well as majority opinions) have the opportunity to be expressed openly. Does that make me un-American? I don't think so. I think it makes me someone who supports one of the most fundamental freedoms this country has to offer. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #331 June 25, 2005 Quote Does that make me un-American? NO! It makes you what I consider a true American. An American that has the same values this country was founded on. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #332 June 25, 2005 Quote I'm afraid while you served you might have missed the point of honor and respect for those that have fought and died before you in uniform.. Only if you consider not acting like a bully over something stupid, as honor....If thats what you mean, then yeah I must have missed that brand of honor for the one I followed. Which was doing what was right and defending freedom even if I don't agree with how some express it. Glad I seemed to miss out on your brand."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #333 June 25, 2005 Quote Yes. It is my standard. I fight for my standards. Just like I won't let a man hit a women because I SAY SO. It's my belief system and it will be enforced. Thank god you have no power, otherwise the folks that think this country is going to shit would be right."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #334 June 25, 2005 Quote No double standard at all. I support it being against the law. For all we know it will be a $50 fine. In some way IT NEEDS to be against the law. You said you would want to shoot someone. Hello double standard"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #335 June 25, 2005 Quote But we are talking about honor... Standards. Respect for those that gave you the right to have an opinion. If you try to force your will on others...There goes honor and respect. Quote I am loosing and have lost respect for each and every one of you that think burning our flag is acceptable. Never said it was acceptable...I said they have the right. BIG difference one you can't see."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #336 June 25, 2005 Quote Class and dignity is lacking in an EXTREME way in this country You mean how some people think its ok to beat people up just cause they do something legal that YOU don't agree with?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #337 June 25, 2005 the country is FAR MORE than a simply piece of colored cloth.. anyone who doesnt understand that, and doesnt recognize that ANYTHING done to a piece of cloth has NO EFFECT on the country, but instead is a clear demonstration of the strength of our system in comparison to all others.... needs to get the fuck out... substance always outweighs symbols... and you cant destroy a symbol in the first place.. even if you burn a physical representation...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #338 June 25, 2005 Quote Quote OK, flag #2 going up in smoke right ....now! You want to exercise your free speech.. Goto your local VFW and burn a flag.. I dare you.. Then pm me when you get out of the hospital in a month.. Try explaining to those veterans why burning your flag is acceptable.. You might get a word in edge wise you might not.. I live in Michigan.. You live in Florida. This is not a threat in any way (Billvon). It is a dare. Go to your local VFW and play this game and see if they understand. Rhino Pass, thanks. Pretty much for the same reason I would not go to a Klan cross burning (and meet some of the same people?) and burn a klan robe. Would be dangerous. However, I'll stand in front of you, bic one up in protest of your threats of violence and violation of your oath to support the constitution of this great country. I'd feel pretty safe and enjoy watching your cognitive dissonance as you try to weigh the relative values of someone who burns a flag in protest vs a man who strikes a woman. Would be fun, don't you think. jen----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #339 June 25, 2005 Quote However, I'll stand in front of you, bic one up in protest of your threats of violence and violation of your oath to support the constitution of this great country. I'd feel pretty safe and enjoy watching your cognitive dissonance as you try to weigh the realative values of someone who burns a flag in protest vs a man who strikes a woman. Would be fun, don't you think. sounds like a riot... lets start a betting pool too... "cognitive dissonance " ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #340 June 25, 2005 Quote anyone who doesnt understand that, and doesnt recognize that ANYTHING done to a piece of cloth has NO EFFECT on the country, but instead is a clear demonstration of the strength of our system in comparison to all others.... needs to get the fuck out... You first. -Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #341 June 25, 2005 Quote Would be fun, don't you think. About as fun as seeing you start puberty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #342 June 25, 2005 Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #343 June 26, 2005 There's only one way to make sure that noone ever burns an American flag again. - Change the flag. - Keep the new flag a secret only known to the president. Now noone will know what to burn Btw I tried looking in your constitution. Am I the only one who cannot find the word "flag" in there?HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #344 June 26, 2005 Quote Flag Burning Myths and Realities MYTH: We need to pass the Flag Amendment to honor our flag. REALITY: We Do Not Honor Our Greatest Symbol of Freedom by Undermining the Freedom it Stands For. A broad range of liberal and conservative groups representing the full spectrum of mainstream politics see the Flag Amendment as both a violation of precious civil liberties and a radical, unnecessary alteration of the Bill of Rights. This amendment would directly restrict the First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of political expression - something no other constitutional amendment has done before. The groups that opposed the amendment, like most Americans, find flag desecration distasteful; but they also consider the amendment's threat to fundamental liberties to be even more distasteful. Destroying freedom is no way to save freedom's symbol. MYTH: The Amendment would resolve legal questions about punishing flag desecration. REALITY: The Flag Amendment Would Open a Pandora's Box of Legal Problems. Amazingly enough, this purportedly patriotic amendment makes no distinction between the immutable principles behind the flag and the flag as a physical object. The amendment raises more questions than it answers. For example, it does not define what a flag is. Is it only a traditional flag of cloth or plastic? Or does it include representations of the flag by artists, an image used in product promotions and advertising, an electronic or computer generated image on video or the Internet? And what constitutes an act of desecration? Would altering the flag or incorporating other elements to convey an artistic or political viewpoint be considered desecration? When the flag is used as part of a product design or in advertising and promoting products, would some kind of products be off-limits? House Constitution Subcommittee Chair Charles Canady (R-FL), who supports the amendment, has said that the amendment would permit punishment for producing boxer shorts containing the design of a flag. The amendment's vague language allows room for egregious, unintended censorship and prosecution. MYTH: The Flag Amendment has broad public support. REALITY: Most Americans Oppose Amending the Bill of Rights. Although many Americans initially favor the idea of making flag desecration a criminal offense, they strongly oppose amending the Bill of Rights for the first time. In 1995, a majority of Americans opposed such an amendment by 53% to 38% when they knew that it would restrict the First Amendment. A 1997 Freedom Forum poll yielded similar results. Congress has already debated and rejected a flag amendment twice, first in 1990 and again in 1995. Despite attempts to turn flag desecration into a political wedge issue, the 1990 and 1995 votes had no impact on subsequent congressional elections. Clearly, flag desecration is not a pressing issue for American voters. MYTH: Without the Flag Amendment, flag desecration is legal and unpunishable. REALITY: Most Acts of Flag Burning are Already Punishable Under Other Laws. Many public acts of flag desecration are already punishable under existing public burning, larceny or public property statutes. In addition, the First Amendment allows punishment for acts of desecration knowingly performed for the purpose of inciting a breach of the peace or producing an immediate danger. (See our analysis of recent flag incidents for more specific information) MYTH: Flag desecration is common, and strong steps are required to prevent it. REALITY: Flag Burning or Desecration is Extremely Rare. Published reports indicate that burning incidents have occurred, on average, less than five times per year since the Supreme Court's 1990 ruling that flag burning is protected speech under the First Amendment. Ironically, passage of the Flag Amendment could increase the frequency of such incidents by making martyrs out of flag burners - and thus lending visibility and credibility to what would otherwise be a non-issue. To tamper with our founding document in order to stop five incidents a year dishonors our Constitution and trivializes the amendment process. In the final analysis, a constitutional amendment is not the proper way to address a handful of flag burnings. In the past, the Constitution was amended to correct serious injustices affecting large numbers of people - ending slavery, for example, and giving women the vote. In those cases, constitutional amendments were justified and proper because of the urgent need to expand the guarantees of liberty to more Americans. The Flag Amendment does just the opposite. It imposes new limits and restrictions on the most fundamental freedom of all - the freedom to publicly express one's own viewpoint, even when that viewpoint offends authority. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #345 June 26, 2005 My position: I don't like the idea of someone burning the flag. If I see someone about to do it, I will move to stop him. However, I am in favor of assholes having the right to try. I don't think it should be against the law. ======================================I've flown the ONLY flag at my apt. complex>800 apts< for two yrs. BUT if I were to want to fuckin burn it I WILL. How YOU gonna stop me? TRY to stick a jackboot up my ass. God I love the right to bear arms.I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #346 June 26, 2005 Quote God I love the right to bear arms. veiled threats, that's good. be careful, if you throw down on someone they may just take your firearm away from you and pistol whip you with your own gun. how'd that be? Quote what can not be remedied must be endured for each problem, there is a remedy. -Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #347 June 26, 2005 Quote People who burn U.S. Flags in the United States do not have free speech in mind, they only hope to anger and offend others. Free political speech must be just that, political speech, not calculated attempt to offend We all want the United States to be a strong country. We want its citizens to be proud of her accomplishments and proud to be citizens of the most free country the Earth has ever seen. Should we not place the very existence of our country above allowing total freedom to do and act as people please? There must be laws in a society to prevent some citizens taking advantage of others and to maintain order. Some laws sustain our nation and its symbols of pride; a constitutional amendment against flag burning or desecration would accomplish this objective. Allowing people to destroy symbols of our great Country weakens our country from the inside out. People who do not love or like this country should not live here, they should move. The only actions they take are negative acts, sometimes violent, sometimes not. We must protect ourselves from the many groups who would like to destroy the United States. We must also have laws which engender pride and respect for the United States or young people will grow up having no desire to respect our country and its rich history. Instead, they will grow up respecting entertainers and athletes more than political and military hero's, the very people who sacrificed and died so that we have the freedom we have today. Their blood is on our hands and we owe them a debt that will never be repaid. The least we can do is not destroy the symbols many men and women have sacrificed their lives for. Lewis Litsey edit to add Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. How does setting ANYTHING on fire constitute as speech? Or peaceful assemble. Explain that to me please. The first amendmentSudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,115 #348 June 26, 2005 Quote Quote People who burn U.S. Flags in the United States do not have free speech in mind, they only hope to anger and offend others. Free political speech must be just that, political speech, not calculated attempt to offend We all want the United States to be a strong country. We want its citizens to be proud of her accomplishments and proud to be citizens of the most free country the Earth has ever seen. Should we not place the very existence of our country above allowing total freedom to do and act as people please? There must be laws in a society to prevent some citizens taking advantage of others and to maintain order. Some laws sustain our nation and its symbols of pride; a constitutional amendment against flag burning or desecration would accomplish this objective. Allowing people to destroy symbols of our great Country weakens our country from the inside out. People who do not love or like this country should not live here, they should move. The only actions they take are negative acts, sometimes violent, sometimes not. We must protect ourselves from the many groups who would like to destroy the United States. We must also have laws which engender pride and respect for the United States or young people will grow up having no desire to respect our country and its rich history. Instead, they will grow up respecting entertainers and athletes more than political and military hero's, the very people who sacrificed and died so that we have the freedom we have today. Their blood is on our hands and we owe them a debt that will never be repaid. The least we can do is not destroy the symbols many men and women have sacrificed their lives for. Lewis Litsey So Lewis Litsey writes self-contradicting claptrap with what authority?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #349 June 26, 2005 explain how you feel this is self-contradictingSudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,088 #350 June 26, 2005 >How does setting ANYTHING on fire constitute as speech? Same reason writing a book is free speech, or carrying a banner is free speech, or flying a flag is free speech. Would you be OK with a ban on flag-flying because flags don't talk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
