House OKs flag desecration amendment... PASS IT!

[Muenkel 0]

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With such a large amount of people saying burn the flag what do you expect?

Rob,

The people here are not saying you should burn the flag. What I believe is being said is don't make it a criminal act. This amendment is a slippery slope. It opens the door for all kinds of censorship, including banning your right to express your beliefs here. The flag is a beautiful symbol of our rights as citizens of this country. Wouldn't it be ridiculous to take away one of those rights? IMO the flag burning population is an extremely small percentage. I believe it would be extremely dangerous to pass an amendment just to stop the few from a certain behavior.

Chris

[rehmwa 2]

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They HAD NO right to vote, so they fought TO GET a right to vote..

how about this take on it -

Since our country does not 'give' rights to people (that's for other governmental systems), it just acknowledges rights we already have (some say inalienable rights given by the deity), then women already did have the right to vote by nature of them being human.

So the country did infringe on their 'god given' rights and they did fight to get their rights and that fight was acknowledged by amending the constitution.

The whole point is, the constitution doesn't grant rights. People have inalienable rights inherent and our constitutions job is to acknowledge and set a structure to protect those rights. (The context here is strongly tied to personal property rights, etc.....)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skydyvr 0]

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That does not mean he isn't a patriot or that he doesn't understand what being a patriot is.

I agree. You can hold a wide variety of beliefs and still be a patriot.

You can have a son and a father who served, and still be a patriot even though you personally didn't serve. You can even have no family members who've ever been in the military, and still be a patriot.

You can even tolerate some non-patriot protestor burning a flag, and still be a patriot yourself.

. . =(_8^(1)

[jdhill 0]

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With such a large amount of people saying burn the flag what do you expect?

In more than 12 pages of posts, I have not read one post in this thread where anyone said they wanted or intended to "burn the flag".

Just because someone says it should be considered protected speech, does not mean that they intend to partake in that type of speech, or even condone it.

Just because you don't like it, or find it offensive, does not mean someone else does not have the right to do it.

I have served my country in uniform, so my opinion counts just as much as yours, which is equal to every other citizen's opinion when it comes to the ratification process, which depends entirely on how much influence they have at their statehouse. (should it get that far).

Personally, I'd rather see the Congress and State legislatures spending their time on more important things.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[pajarito 0]

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It seems the "selectivity" might be yours.

Respect the flag man. Simple..

I do. I also served in the Army. I fought for you to be able to fly your flag with honor & respect. I also fought for that asshole on the side of the road burning his in protest. In many other places in the world, an act like that would get you shot in the middle of a soccer field and drug in front of the crowd. Thank God not here in the USA. You're correct in that you take your chances if you disrespect it in front of certain crowds, though. I'd probably respond violently if it were done in front of me. I'm sure someone would get their ass kicked pretty badly if they did it in front of the VFW. However, I hesitate to agree with making it against the law. There's no need to open up that floodgate. Our freedom of speech & expression is one of our most precious freedoms. Even for that asshole that I don't agree with.

[lawrocket 3]

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And I will bet that millions of Americans think they have a right not to have their flag burned. Like blacks thought they had a right not to be slaves, like women thought they had a right to vote...

For the first one, they are wrong. This right does not exist.
For the second one, they were wrong, until the 14th Amendment was passed. Then they did have the right.
For the third one, they were wrong. Women had no right to vote until the Constitution was amended. they now have this right.

What's the difference between these three examples? In only one of them does that right not presently exist. For the other two, they NOW exist, though they did not always exist.

By way of example, white men didn't always have the right to vote under the Constitution, either. That changed in 1787, when the Constitution was passed.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[skydyvr 0]

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In more than 12 pages of posts, I have not read one post in this thread where anyone said they wanted or intended to "burn the flag".

Seems you've missed a few then . . .

. . =(_8^(1)

[rehmwa 2]

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And I will bet that millions of Americans think they have a right not to have their flag burned. Like blacks thought they had a right not to be slaves, like women thought they had a right to vote...

For the first one, they are wrong. This right does not exist.
For the second one, they were wrong, until the 14th Amendment was passed. Then they did have the right.
For the third one, they were wrong. Women had no right to vote until the Constitution was amended. they now have this right.

What's the difference between these three examples? In only one of them does that right not presently exist. For the other two, they NOW exist, though they did not always exist.

By way of example, white men didn't always have the right to vote under the Constitution, either. That changed in 1787, when the Constitution was passed.

Oh c'mon JC - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1705352#1705352

I think I made a good point and you just blew right past it.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rwieder 0]

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unless you have been in the military, or served in some other capacity other than a "partaker" of all the goodies and rights you have as an american, i don't believe you will ever understand how a patriot feels.

Obviously, you missed the bold phrase.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[jdhill 0]

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Seems you've missed a few then . . .

Perhaps so, but hey, I have a job that does not afford me time to read all 310 posts to this point... and if there are a few, it was far from a "large amount"

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[skydyvr 0]

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unless you have been in the military, or served in some other capacity other than a "partaker" of all the goodies and rights you have as an american, i don't believe you will ever understand how a patriot feels.

Obviously, you missed the bold phrase.

No, I didn't miss it, but I ignored it because it's meaningless without further definition.

Anyone who pays taxes or volunteers time to something positive is more than just a "partaker of the goodies". I'll bet that applies to everyone here. Try again.

. . =(_8^(1)

[Botellines 0]

I think Rhino should be the next president of the United States. He has the rare ability to make the reps and the dems join files (even if it is against him)

Everybody remember the thread about the marines getting the bounty on OBL´s head? and now this one.

RHINO FOR PRESIDENT...

[jdhill 0]

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the greatest nation on the face of the earth

Just out of curiosity... which nation do you think is the greatest? My guess is you'll say Spain... although I could be wrong because I've never met you...

I think most people tend to think their nation is the greatest, other wise they would try to move to the one that they think is...

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[pajarito 0]

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RHINO FOR PRESIDENT...

Hmmmmm....... Uhhhhh..... No.

[rehmwa 2]

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Everybody remember the thread about the marines getting the bounty on OBL´s head?

Oh, that one was sweet. There was no strong emotions tied up in that one at all. Let's talk about some more.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,558]

I'm not Botellines, but I think "greatest nation" is kind of like "best color." It depends on who's doing the judging, and what their standards are.

It's not a vote kind of thing, where the winner is declared a great nation, and all the losers are declared wrong.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rhino 0]

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You can even tolerate some non-patriot protestor burning a flag, and still be a patriot yourself.

That is where we don't agree.

[rhino 0]

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In more than 12 pages of posts, I have not read one post in this thread where anyone said they wanted or intended to "burn the flag".

Go back and read Jen's posts..

[jdhill 0]

Um, that was kinda the point... I think my nation is the greatest... A Russian thinks Russa is the greatest, yada yada yada... but to call someone an asshole for voicing their opinion of which the greatest is, is silly.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[rhino 0]

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I have a job that does not afford me time to read all 310 posts to this point

But you said you read 12 pages of posts? lol

Just playing man.. I won't act like the other cry babbies in here

[lawrocket 3]

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Since our country does not 'give' rights to people (that's for other governmental systems), it just acknowledges rights we already have (some say inalienable rights given by the deity), then women already did have the right to vote by nature of them being human.

You are right on the acknowledgement. Dead on.

But, apparently our nations leaders had problems in the prophecy area in the early going. That's why we needed these amendments to grant these rights.

That is, of course, unless God changed his/her/its mind. Maybe God also caught on with the times, and decided that he needed another Abraham to spread his new word. The old Abraham was good, but maybe god wanted one with a last name, but liked the crazy wife angle.

I mean, we all now have a God given right to eat fish on Fridays, right? IT means no more Filet-O-Fish at McDonalds unless we like them. Still, I'm concerned with an allmighty deity changing his mind, especially to be more hip, yo'!

God decides every now and then to change his mind about God-given rights, I think. Is there a God-given right to burn a flag? I dunno. I'm no prophet. And since I note no new star in the north, virgin births or even three dudes riding in from the desert, I'm not prone to seeing any changes in God-given rights. Only the rights that we recognize.

Or maybe God has been the same, and we've been doing it and reading it wrong all along. Maybe they forgot to list "acceptance of burning a flag or burning flags" as the 8th Deadly Sin. Perhaps we are all, except rhino, doomed to be cast into fire and brimstone. Personally, I think they left the "R" out of "celebrate." Even the Apostles make typos. maybe women shouldn't vote. Maybe we thought God gave us rights when he didn't.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[wmw999 2,558]

There's a difference between saying "The US is the greatest nation on earth" and saying "I think the US is the greatest nation on earth."

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rhino 0]

true

[jdhill 0]

Perhaps in an overly literal world.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[wmw999 2,558]

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Perhaps in an overly literal world

I've never been accused of being overly literal . But to me, one is an assertion that might need to be defended -- after all, if you say it is the greatest nation, then you have to provide some standards.

If it's your opinion, well, everyone has one of those.

It's like asking (heh heh heh) what is desecration of the flag? Until Congress decides if they pass this amendment, desecration is either:
a. whatever each person decides it is (and we've seen a wide variety there)
b. whatever it says not to do in the "how to treat the flag" books (which is a LOT of stuff like T-shirts that's not commonly thought to be desecration by some).

And the more one takes responsibility for one's opinion by claiming it (i.e. that "in my opinion" or "I think" stuff), then the less assailable your assertions are, the more likely they are to be listened to. Because you're not accusing the other person of being wrong if they disagree, you're providing them with information.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)