law enforcment ammunition

[Zep 0]

I was working in the police station the other day, an ran into a drinking buddy (who's a police officer)
Anyway we where chatting an he showed me his new service pistol, Lama M-82 (well new for him)
He took out the mag let me look at it, it was ok but a bit on the heavy side,
What surprised me was the load, it was loaded with 9x21 JHP's

In other countries is this normal I thought it was a bit over the top.

Gone fishing

[larsrulz 0]

As I understand it (at least as far as the US police go) hollow point bullets are the most common type used.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[JohnRich 4]

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What surprised me was the load, it was loaded with 9x21 JHP's
In other countries is this normal I thought it was a bit over the top.

What's wrong with hollow points for self defense? If you need to stop someone from killing you, that's one of the best types of ammo available.

Even better than 9mm hollow points would be .45 hollow points.

Are you suggesting that the police should use something less effective, at the risk of their own lives?

[Zep 0]

>Are you suggesting that the police should use something less effective<

No, For some reason I thought they used the standard hardball.

Gone fishing

[skymedic 0]

9mm is pretty rare now a days. as it just doesn't have the stopping power of a more powerfull load. eg.. 40SW, 375auto, etc...

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[craddock 0]

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No, For some reason I thought they used the standard hardball.

Just curious as to why you would think that?

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[fallingchip 0]

Most departments including mine use a low grain(less gunpowder) hollow point.

With that combination the chances of the bullet exiting the body is reduced to NEAR impossible. It wouldn't be good if a bullet exited a person and struck a bystander. Also the full metal jackets(hard shell) as you call it are known to ricochet inside the body off of bones and tear threw organs.

______________________________________________
"A radical man is a man with both feet firmly planted in the air."
-Franklin Delano Roosevelt

[Zep 0]

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No, For some reason I thought they used the standard hardball.

Just curious as to why you would think that?

I don't know, Something to do with international treaties, Maybe I was thinking along the lines of
if NATO has a standard round perhaps police forces do too,

Gone fishing

[mattsplat 0]

Here in N.J. If someone breakes into your house And you shoot and kill them with hollow points you will be convicted of murder. Same situation with fmj is ok. Now either or and he lives he can sue you.Got to love N.J. laws.

[jumperboy357 0]

So you have to use fmj's in N.J. but you should just take a central nervous system shot. That way the intruder dies instantly (except for some minor twitching) and you didn't have to use a hollow point. There.....problem solved! And less messy!!! SSG James

[Ron 10]

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I don't know, Something to do with international treaties, Maybe I was thinking along the lines of
if NATO has a standard round perhaps police forces do too,

Nope it only applies to military.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[airtwardo 7]

Even better than 9mm hollow points would be .45 hollow points.

***

And now Glock has created a NEW .45 round,
shorter brass...about the same as a 9mm, but with
'standard' .45 ballistics.

.45 power on a 9mm frame...

(he bets his life on a llama?!)

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skydivadee 0]

make the first 2 dum dum rounds...... get a messy kill on the first double tap, that'll teach em.......

[screwball 0]

Ploice usually use hollow points because they will not pass through the target (person) and into a bystander.

[StreetScooby 5]

This is a big off thread, but ya'll should check this out. 50-cal marine sniper shots in Afghanistan.
http://www.ehowa.com/showmovie.shtml?movie=marinesniperafghanistan.wmv

We are all engines of karma

[ECVZZ 0]

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9mm is pretty rare now a days.

9x21 is not quite the same as a "standard" 9mm round (9x19), and the terminal ballistics are significantly better. It is most commonly used in the USA in IPSC matches as you can "make major" with it.

9x19 (Luger, or parabellum if you prefer) is still quite popular in CCW states, with folks who like more stopping power than a .38 with less bulk, and less recoil than a .40 cal or a .357 Sig. in the same size frame.

Personally, my CCW is a .40 S&W stoked with 155 gr GDHP, and I see no reason to change.

G. Jones

"I've never been quarantined. But the more I look around, the more I think it might not be a bad idea."

[JohnRich 4]

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It is most commonly used in the USA in IPSC matches as you can "make major" with it.

What does "make major" mean? Does that mean shooting well enough to get promoted to higher rankings?

[Tonto 1]

Do you have a time machine?

http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/dumdum.htm

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[skydivadee 0]

No, I wish I did but....

back in my own darkness, we were restricted to 9mm ball rounds, so we used to 'Doctor' the first top 2 rounds in the mag. This has changed now as we can choose the ammo, depending on the job.

You would file the top down of the round down a few mm then cut an ' X ' in 1 or 2 mm.

This practise was illegal, so it was not an open spoken practise.

[StreetScooby 5]

Great website Tonto! Thanks for posting it.

We are all engines of karma

[ECVZZ 0]

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What does "make major" mean?

It refers to power factor ratings, which determine how hits are scored. The formula for determining power factor for a given "load" is Bullet weight (in grains) x velocity / 1000.

Some divisions have only a minimum power factor requirement, or "floor", while in other divisions you may "make major" by meeting a higher power factor (usually 160-170, depending on which division you're shooting in).

Peripheral hits are scored higher with major power factor due to the fact that heavier projectiles with higher velocities generally produce more damage, and will be more likely to "take the fight out of the bad guy".

G. Jones

"I've never been quarantined. But the more I look around, the more I think it might not be a bad idea."

[JohnRich 4]

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What does "make major" mean?

It refers to power factor ratings, which determine how hits are scored. The formula for determining power factor for a given "load" is Bullet weight (in grains) x velocity / 1000.

Some divisions have only a minimum power factor requirement, or "floor", while in other divisions you may "make major" by meeting a higher power factor (usually 160-170, depending on which division you're shooting in).

Peripheral hits are scored higher with major power factor due to the fact that heavier projectiles with higher velocities generally produce more damage, and will be more likely to "take the fight out of the bad guy".

Aha! Thanks for that explanation. So this is a way to give a higher score for lethality based on the bigger calibers and/or higher velocities?

So a .45 with the standard 230 grain bullets at 850 feet per second, would be a power factor of ...(calculating)... 195.5. And a 9mm with 115 grain bullets at 1200 fps would be... 138. Since I shoot .45's, I think I would like this scoring advantage!

That's very sophisticated scoring. I shoot high-power rifle, and it reminds me of a rule we have in that competition. If the edge of a bullet hole is just touching the line around a scoring ring, the shooter gets the higher value of the ring he's touching, even though the majority of the hole is in the lower scoring ring. The problem is, .223 shooters make such tiny holes, that they can be real close to a line, but not touch it, where the same shot with a .30 caliber would touch the line and get an extra point. So you can get a little advantage with a .30 caliber over .223.