Ron 10 #26 June 3, 2005 QuoteHey, don't the French wear black berets? 1. Yeah, but not well. 2. Yes, until it falls off when they start running. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #27 June 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteTankers were wearing black berets before the Rangers. Paratroops were wearing berets before anyone else in the army. So? Does that make it OK to take the Rangers Beret away and give it to a POG just to make them feel special? How about this...Wanna Feel special?...BE special. Why do you think Rangers have exclusive rights to it when others had it first? Rangers didn't wear black berets 60 years ago. It changed in 1975 and it's changed again - deal with it. If everything stayed the same the army would dress like the attached pic.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #28 June 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteTankers were wearing black berets before the Rangers. Paratroops were wearing berets before anyone else in the army. Barbers were performing surgeries before physicians were. Does this mean that doctors should be considered no better than barbers today? Do physicians tell barbers what they can and cannot wear? The MD, like the JD, is a recent invention anyway, not a true doctor.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #29 June 3, 2005 QuoteWhy do you think Rangers have exclusive rights to it when others had it first? Did I SAY they should have exclusive rights? No I said it is a shame that some POG's crying got a shit for brains commander to take away a symbol that some folks busted their ass to EARN, and gave it away to a cry baby. Its a signal of our "I want special treatment, but don't want to earn it" times. QuoteIf everything stayed the same the army would dress like the attached pic. No, because those uniforms were combat ineffective....The second was cool looking however. QuoteThe MD, like the JD, is a recent invention anyway, not a true doctor. I guess only you are a true Dr? to quote you "deal with it""No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #30 June 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhy do you think Rangers have exclusive rights to it when others had it first? Did I SAY they should have exclusive rights? No I said it is a shame that some POG's crying got a shit for brains commander to take away a symbol that some folks busted their ass to EARN, and gave it away to a cry baby. Its a signal of our "I want special treatment, but don't want to earn it" times. QuoteIf everything stayed the same the army would dress like the attached pic. No, because those uniforms were combat ineffective....The second was cool looking however. " How combat effective is a black beret? Are they making them from kevlar these days?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #31 June 3, 2005 QuoteHow combat effective is a black beret? Are they making them from kevlar these days? They are not. But my beef is that you should not take a symbol of hard work and give it to anyone just to make them feel special if they did not earn it. How would you feel if all high school grads became Dr's to make them feel special?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #32 June 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteHow combat effective is a black beret? Are they making them from kevlar these days? They are not. But my beef is that you should not take a symbol of hard work and give it to anyone just to make them feel special if they did not earn it. How would you feel if all high school grads became Dr's to make them feel special? I see kindergarden graduations these days with the 5 year olds wearing caps and gowns. 100 years ago it was restricted to college graduates only. Things change, get used to it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nbblood 0 #33 June 3, 2005 QuoteHow combat effective is a black beret? Are they making them from kevlar these days? Exactly. The people that really know realize the beret is just a hat you wear on your head, nothing more. Everybody's got a job to do, whether there in some "elite" unit or not. Berets just really don't matter. (other than they suck) Blues, NathanBlues, Nathan If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #34 June 3, 2005 QuoteThe MD, like the JD, is a recent invention anyway, not a true doctor. True. the Ph.D. is also a fairly recent designation. IT wasn't revived until the 19th century. Actually, I dont' think it arrived in Englad until the 20th century, did it, doc? Y'all had your D.Phil. back then What separates a J.D. or an M.D. from a Ph.D. is that it is a professional designation. I also think that in the UK, "doctor" is an honorary designation for physicians. I'm well aware of the history of the "J.D." that sought to give a nicer status to me ilk. But, that's also a reason why you don't often find attorneys referring to themselves as "doctor." My best friend is a true doctor. He wouldn't have been 100 years ago, since they didn't confer those "Doctor of Economics" degrees back then. Still, we can agree on the point that changes are made quite often. I think I'll go ahead and start a movement to get my degree status changed from a J.D. to a Ph.D. You haven't done any more studying than I did through law school. It sure would make me feel better to at least have the appearrance of being a "true doctor." Something that you couldn't have been called 100 years ago. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #35 June 3, 2005 QuoteI see kindergarden graduations these days with the 5 year olds wearing caps and gowns. 100 years ago it was restricted to college graduates only. Things change, get used to it. God, I again agree with Kallend on another topic (this and the 45 degree rule so far amongst others - what am I to do?). The beret is a 'symbol' only. So what? Rangers are special because of the training and skills they have. Naked, they'd still be Rangers (capital R). I just don't imagine someone that competent needing a symbol to validate who they are. If so, then make a new symbol (like a beret with the word 'Ranger' printed on it.) Conversely, if the regular troops want the beret to feel like they are special 'just like the big bad rangers' then I'd say they have self image issues too. I don't much care as long as they do their jobs well. But I'm not a big fan of symbols when content and character are being marginalized nowadays. (and yes, I do see how diluting a symbol is a very clear symptom of the problem - just it's not the problem itself) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #36 June 3, 2005 Doctor's And dammit - an 'engineer' only drives the trains. Any other use is just coddling the college boys - and garbage men - and social workers - and so on and so on ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #37 June 3, 2005 QuoteDoctor's And dammit - an 'engineer' only drives the trains. Any other use is just coddling the college boys - and garbage men - and social workers - and so on and so on Nope. Engineers made engines of war. Then 'civil' engineers came along who made "engines" that weren't for the military. Predates trains by hundreds of years.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #38 June 3, 2005 You know when I first joined the army there was only one thing that mattered to me. And that was EARNING a black beret. I wanted one but I wanted to work for it, I wanted to put in the blood, sweat, and commitment to EARN my right to wear it. And I did, and I wore it with pride, I was in awe every time I saw it hanging on my wall. Then it's given to the rest of the military, the first time I saw some disgusting fat f%ck of a shitbag soldier that proabaly couldn't even pass the two mile run in time wearing it I wanted to rip his god d@mn spine out. And pretty much since then the sense of pride I once had for my accomplishments has run out. Things like that which reminded me of my accomplishments and dedication once motivated the hell out of me, and made me want to do my job better and better, and now they mean nothing to me. It truly was heart breaking to see people put the beret on their head even though it meant nothing to them, just another thing they had to buy for their uniform. The Army took something that many great men wore with distinction and it now sits on the desk of every finance officer, cook, mechanic, truc driver, whatever, they take no pride in it, I've seen ones with the flash so greasy and dirty it was solid black and they don't care, they don't take the time to shave and shape them and wear them as they should. Every Ranger I saw wearing one kept it in immaculate condition, and took good care of it. BS like this is why I'm getting out, not simply because I want my special hats to myself, but because the Army has completely lost focus on whats important.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #39 June 3, 2005 Quote Then 'civil' engineers came along rubbish - engineers aren't civil catapults are cool ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #40 June 3, 2005 Quotecatapults are cool Trebuchets are cooler.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #41 June 3, 2005 QuoteYou know when I first joined the army there was only one thing that mattered to me. And that was EARNING a black beret. I wanted one but I wanted to work for it, I wanted to put in the blood, sweat, and commitment to EARN my right to wear it. And I did, and I wore it with pride, I was in awe every time I saw it hanging on my wall. Then it's given to the rest of the military, the first time I saw some disgusting fat f%ck of a shitbag soldier that proabaly couldn't even pass the two mile run in time wearing it I wanted to rip his god d@mn spine out. And pretty much since then the sense of pride I once had for my accomplishments has run out. Things like that which reminded me of my accomplishments and dedication once motivated the hell out of me, and made me want to do my job better and better, and now they mean nothing to me. It truly was heart breaking to see people put the beret on their head even though it meant nothing to them, just another thing they had to buy for their uniform. The Army took something that many great men wore with distinction and it now sits on the desk of every finance officer, cook, mechanic, truc driver, whatever, they take no pride in it, I've seen ones with the flash so greasy and dirty it was solid black and they don't care, they don't take the time to shave and shape them and wear them as they should. Every Ranger I saw wearing one kept it in immaculate condition, and took good care of it. BS like this is why I'm getting out, not simply because I want my special hats to myself, but because the Army has completely lost focus on whats important. I'm sorry that you find the symbol more important than the substance. But remember that the symbol you cherish so much is less than half as old as the US Army Rangers. The men who took the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc on D-Day weren't given black berets. Do you think they were upset to have the same headgear as the other grunts? Here's an interesting article on the Rangers.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #42 June 3, 2005 QuoteQuote Then 'civil' engineers came along rubbish - engineers aren't civil catapults are cool Well, as we tell our ME freshmen, mechanical engineers design weapons and civil engineers design targets.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #43 June 4, 2005 The ranger tab still means a lot to the the folks that count. Enough that a officer at Ft lewis got busted for wearing the ranger tab without earning it. The army/military IMO is a little strange about their medals. The west pointers go thru jump school and get to wear their jump wings for the rest of their career withoutout making another jump. We recently found out that their are actually 2 different bronze stars. The real one for herorism, and another one for meritorious service Irather judge a soldier by what they are in the field than the medals they may have been awarded for questionable reasons. Like McArthur recieving the Medal of Honor so he wouldn't feel bad for bugging out of the P.I. West pointers R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfzombie13 324 #44 June 4, 2005 the thing that everyone here totally missed on this, (and i'm not surprised) is financially. it cost over $7 million to give berets to everyone. and it took over 3 years to do it. most of the berets worn by our soldiers (or first issued to them) came from china. they couldn't produce enough of them here in the states. i was in when the transition ocurred, (although we wore maroon and green ones) and all the people i talked to about it didn't want to wear them. they liked the pc better (as do i). they are not very useful, too hot in the summer, can't keep the sun out of your eyes, lose shape when wet, need shaved, etc. when i got my maroon beret, though, it was a very proud day indeed. had i earned a green one before leaving, it would have been 10x the amount of pride. about medals, they are based on rank. i know too many people who got bronze stars because they were an e7 or higher, some without ever leaving the fob (which was in uzbekistan for ops in afghanistan). there are letter from marines in ww2 that complain about the same thing. i was an e6 when i got out and had 14 ribbons (medals) not counting oak leaf clusters for 2d and 3d awards. does this make me special? i think not, just means that someone thought i did a good job. of course some of them were just because i went to war (6 total for 2 tours). when you're in a unit like my former one (sf), you'll see the true meaning of "quiet professionals". they are all heroes, and they'll never talk about it. first off, most of it's classified, second of all, they don't like to brag. the stories they can tell are usually hilarious, though._________________________________________ Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #45 June 4, 2005 >To me it's like seeing a 300 way patch on a 20 jump wonder.... Can't comment on the berets, but it just doesn't bug me to see stuff like the 300 way patch any more. I see tandem students with closing pin necklaces, 100 jump wonders with 'sponsorship' patches all over them, new jumpers wearing "Aerodyne Instructor" shirts, people at boogies wearing staff shirts they got from their buddies. At one point I was all upset that they were being 'fake' but I've come to realize that the accomplishment that comes from doing something like a 300-way (or getting a sponsorship, or helping run a boogie) is the important part. The patch, or the shirt, or the hat is good to have if it reminds you of the event, but as for proving anything to anyone else about your abilities - it's just wasted effort. There are some people far more skilled than me who think I'm an OK skydiver, and they don't pay much heed to patches and shirts. They are the people whose opinions I care about. I realize everyone's not the same, though - and if there are people out there who _do_ care, then more power to them. I just don't get mad about it anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #46 June 5, 2005 Kallend, I really question some of the facts you stated earlier. From the sounds of things everyone and their dog was issued a beret long before Special Forces and the Rangers were. You stated that airborne troops were the first in the army to be issued berets. That just isn't true. I was jump qualified in 1970. We were all giving a slit type cap that had a crest on the right front of it (of a glider and parachute). It was the same cap given to para-troops during W.W.II. That was 1970, quite a while after Special Forces and Rangers were given their berets. I see nothing wrong with airborne troops wearing the maroon colored beret. They earned it, and it's not stealing someone else's beret. As far as tankers and other folks in the army wearing berets I never saw a one during the early 70's. Things seemed to change radically in about 75. I remember walking into a P.X. back then, and I felt like I had landed in the land of Ozz. There were all these different caps representing who knows what. There was even a few who had a type of cowboy hat. I think they may have been helicopter pilots. I'm sure this was a great recruiting idea...If you sign your life away we'll give you a really cool uniform. I remember back in those days, when I was a lot younger and dumber, I almost enlisted in the Marine Corps. One reason was because they had a cooler looking fatigue hat than the army's baseball cap. The green beret and black beret are very similiar in color. The green beret is also very dark in color and both have a flash on the front. In Special Forces the flash represents the group, that soldier is assigned to. I was not ranger qualified so I guess I don't know much about their flash. Shaving a beret must be something new. I never heard of that. Nor did anyone tear the liners out that I knew. We did get them wet and shape them though, (back in the good old days). At any rate it just bothers me to see a new recruit all duded up like a green beret or ranger. And yes, I know this isn't a new change. I'm just having a hard time adapting. I don't know if I ever will..."Just get used to it!" No, berets aren't made out of kevlar. They don't need to be. Contrary to what you see on T.V., they aren't worn into combat. Maybe I am hung up on symbols. Again this is my perspective on things. Wearing a beret in the Army once meant something. Now it doesn't. I guess I shouldn't let the phonyness in some people and things bother me so much. There's plenty of it out there. This is one of the flaws of my character that I struggle with a lot....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #47 June 5, 2005 Kallends acount is backed by the Army Instatute of Heraldry. I have worn many of the disputed forms of headgear in the last 18.5 years. I have earned many of the medals ribbons and badges in the last 18.5 years too. The one that means the most to me is the 5 inch tape that says US.ARMY. Regardless of what is pinned, sewn or placed on a uniform it is servicemens (and Women) perfomance in the field that counts, not the rows of ribbons or qualifications. The marines do not place a bunch of stuff on thier battle uniform or on their head to show you who they are, they just show you through performance, the Army's SOF and high esprit de corp units are the same way, as I am sure the Navy and Air Force are. Side bar; Rogers Rangers whore a bit different version but it was a Black Beret none the less, any one know the year (75th guys can't anser, you have the unfair advantage). MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #48 June 5, 2005 QuoteKallends acount is backed by the Army Instatute of Heraldry. Thanks.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #49 June 6, 2005 Quotesays US.ARMY. Regardless of what is pinned, sewn or placed on a uniform it is servicemens (and Women) perfomance in the field that counts, not the rows of ribbons or qualifications. Side bar; Rogers Rangers whore a bit different version but it was a Black Beret none the less, any one know the year (75th guys can't anser, you have the unfair advantage). Matt I do agree with this. There's lot's of other people in the military who I have great respect for and they aren't issued any special head gear at all. Navy Seals are a good example. I doubt if I could have ever gotten through their training. I've always looked up to people in the Marine Corps. Again they don't have any special head gear. Probably the service people I look up to most are those who have risked it all in combat. I can only imagine how hard that would be. Yes, I was Special Forces qualified, had tons of pride in the beret I wore, but I was also in the National Guard, which I didn't take much pride in at all. It was during the Vietnam Era and not many guardsmen were activated. I know lot's of people who have risked it all many times in combat. To me this stands for a lot more than any fancy hat that someone earns in training. I do remember Roberts Rangers. No, I'm not quite that old. But if I remember right, Special Forces based many of their ideas on Special Warfare on this group....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #50 June 6, 2005 QuoteQuotecatapults are cool Trebuchets are cooler. That's some kind of egg dish, right? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
