Skyrad 0 #1 May 31, 2005 I was watching a documentary about Kamakazi pilots and the cult of Bushido yesterday and wondered what you all thought about these men and what they did. Personaly I think they were brave men doing all they could to defend their homeland and their way of life.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #2 May 31, 2005 Controversial - aren't they yesteryears suicide bombers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #3 May 31, 2005 QuoteControversial - aren't they yesteryears suicide bombers? The cowardice displayed yesterday by the two suicide bombers is clearly demonstrated by the way they executed their deed. To my knowledge Kamakazi pilots only attacked the military targets of their enemy - most certainly never their own people. In the context WWII, I too think they were brave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #4 May 31, 2005 QuoteI was watching a documentary about Kamakazi pilots and the cult of Bushido yesterday and wondered what you all thought about these men and what they did. Personaly I think they were brave men doing all they could to defend their homeland and their way of life. I find myself agreeing with you on this one, which personally leaves me in a delema, I have to somehow seperate them from todays suicide bombers the only way I can do that is by thinking that they acted apon military targets in a time of war and under orders from a legitimate superior officer. Hope that makes scence as I do not think they should be lumped togeather with todays suicide bombers. One thing I think people should understand is that they where honrable men with a culture that westeners could not understand Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #5 May 31, 2005 QuoteI was watching a documentary about Kamakazi pilots and the cult of Bushido yesterday and wondered what you all thought about these men and what they did. Personaly I think they were brave men doing all they could to defend their homeland and their way of life. You left out stupid mind-nummed idiots. People with such a low-level of independent thought that the can't see they are being used while being thought of as expendible. Is it brave to kill innocent civilians because you think that since they are infidels you are going directly to heaven? I say definately NOT. These people are so clueless that they are able to be convinced that some loving God is going to reward them for their hanious crimes on earth.They are so stupid that they are not able to figure out the propanda that will cause their death for no good reason. For that reason I think that the truly stupid willing to do this would be best annihialated for the survival of the human race.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #6 May 31, 2005 QuoteKamakazis QuoteIs it brave to kill innocent civilians because you think that since they are infidels you are going directly to heaven? Quote I suspect you are talking about an entirely different group of people in an entirely different war here? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #7 May 31, 2005 Um... do you have any idea what a Kamakazi is? You talk of killing civilians and of attacking the "infidels"... are you sure you're talking about Kamikaze's or have you somehow got them confused with something that muslims are doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #8 May 31, 2005 haha - jinx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #9 May 31, 2005 QuoteI was watching a documentary about Kamakazi pilots and the cult of Bushido yesterday and wondered what you all thought about these men and what they did. Personaly I think they were brave men doing all they could to defend their homeland and their way of life. We must have had different History books. Mine said Japan was the aggressor in WW2. How do you justify their acts as defensive? Desperate would be a better description. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #10 May 31, 2005 They only turned to the use of Kamikaze and Kaiten pilots in defense of their territories. Yes they were the aggressors in WWII but then ended up defending after the loss of their carrier fleet at Midway. There's no hidden meaning to the term "defense" - even bad people are allowed to adopt a defensive strategy militarily speaking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Steel 0 #11 May 31, 2005 QuoteUm... do you have any idea what a Kamakazi is? You talk of killing civilians and of attacking the "infidels"... are you sure you're talking about Kamakazi's or have you somehow got them confused with something that muslims are doing? Yes "Kamakazis" were the Japanesse psycho pilots from WWII. Now they may not have specifically targeted civilians but what Skyrad is clearly trying to do here is draw a parallel with the Muslim suicide bombers who do. In anycase, I still hold that anybody who is able to be convinced to partake in a suicide mission is a mind-numbed idiot, not a hero, not brave.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Newbie 0 #12 May 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteI was watching a documentary about Kamakazi pilots and the cult of Bushido yesterday and wondered what you all thought about these men and what they did. Personaly I think they were brave men doing all they could to defend their homeland and their way of life. I find myself agreeing with you on this one, which personally leaves me in a delema, I have to somehow seperate them from todays suicide bombers Kamakazi pilots did what they felt was a last resort and necessary for the betterment of their families and certainly did not wish to die, and only attacked those they were directly at war with - namely military targets. Suicide bombers will do something almost incomprehendable to normal human beings, often as a first resort to what they think is right, not necessarily something that is deemed necessary, for the betterment of themselves (they are going to be sent straight to their God to live in unimaginable and eternal bliss) and will often target non military targets. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crozby 0 #13 May 31, 2005 QuoteThe cowardice displayed yesterday by the two suicide bombers is clearly demonstrated by the way they executed their deed. I don't understand why people use the word coward to describe suicide bombers - they may be a lot of things, but coward isn't one of them. In my view, there is little difference between Japanese suicide bombers and any other suicide bomber. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Erroll 80 #14 May 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe cowardice displayed yesterday by the two suicide bombers is clearly demonstrated by the way they executed their deed. I don't understand why people use the word coward to describe suicide bombers - they may be a lot of things, but coward isn't one of them. In my view, there is little difference between Japanese suicide bombers and any other suicide bomber. I described their acts as cowardice based on the way they perpetrate them. Yesterday's killers deliberately mingled with a crowd of innocent people when they detonated their explosives. The kamakazi pilots wore the Japanese uniforms, flew in aircraft showing distinct identification markings and only attacked military targets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crozby 0 #15 May 31, 2005 QuoteI described their acts as cowardice based on the way they perpetrate them. Yesterday's killers deliberately mingled with a crowd of innocent people when they detonated their explosives. The kamakazi pilots wore the Japanese uniforms, flew in aircraft showing distinct identification markings and only attacked military targets. Cowardice is a lack of courage, or it is showing fear in the face of danger. It may be immoral and wrong to mingle amongst innocent civilians and blow yourself up, but it isn't cowardly. Suicide bombing seems far braver to me than say bombing people from 45,000ft or firing missiles at them from miles away. The Japanese also employed suicide submarine pilots that snuck up on allied shipping and detonated themselves - i don't think they felt they needed to display their credentials in order for it to be legit - dying for the emperor and for japan was considered noble whatever way it took place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #16 May 31, 2005 Actualy Steel I wasn't about to start banging on about Iraq but as its been brought up... Erroll what if a suicide bomber in Iraq is clothed in a recognisable 'uniform' and attacks a millitary target? Is there a big diference? On the program I was watching they also showed Japanese Army suicide bombers that belived strongly in the Bushido cult and did exactly what the suicide bombers in Iraq did to American troops in the same way. *Climbing into flame proof coverall* And before anyone says I do, I don't support the suicide bombers but I do think it takes courage to do what they do.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #17 May 31, 2005 I think it takes more courage to live, then to die. Suicide is the easy way out. It doesn't take much to commit suicide, but it takes courage to live with mistakes and face the rest of your natural life. Suicide bombers = lowlife cowards Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Steel 0 #18 May 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote Personaly I think they were brave men doing all they could to defend their homeland and their way of life. ... leaves me in a delema, I have to somehow seperate them from todays suicide bombers Kamakazi pilots did what they felt was a last resort and necessary for the betterment of their families and certainly did not wish to die, and only attacked those they were directly at war with - namely military targets. . I find it funny how many people try to romanticize this. In any case it did not serve to protect their families, as all it really did was cause us (American's) to have to use the nuclear option on them.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Botellines 0 #19 May 31, 2005 QuoteIn anycase, I still hold that anybody who is able to be convinced to partake in a suicide mission is a mind-numbed idiot, not a hero, not brave. [sarcasm] Yeah, the true brave man and heroes will not die for what they believe. Brave people picks on enemies who can take out easily by more advance weaponry. [/sarcasm] Edited to remark the unfortunate words: "mind numbed idiot". Truly unfortunate for nowadays people are willing to believe pretty much anything. I mean, what is the excuse this month for the Iraq war? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Botellines 0 #20 May 31, 2005 QuoteIn any case it did not serve to protect their families, as all it really did was cause us (American's) to have to use the nuclear option on them. Nice job avoiding responsability. So how did they make you use WMD on them? By not doing what you wanted them to do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Steel 0 #21 May 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteIn any case it did not serve to protect their families, as all it really did was cause us (American's) to have to use the nuclear option on them. Nice job avoiding responsability. So how did they make you use WMD on them? By not doing what you wanted them to do? A little common sense will clear everything up for you. If you break into my house trying to kill me. I will blow your head off with my shotgun, and then I will walk over to the door and shoot ten other idiots headed for my house before they get there. I won't feel the least bit guilty about it. And when I compare that to what the U.S. did nuking Japan, I feel like a great American, who can see eye to eye with other Americans.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crozby 0 #22 May 31, 2005 What are your views on Japanese suicide bombers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #23 May 31, 2005 I'd still defer to the individual - so you don't know and never will. One guy might have used his last moments for the greatest effects in something he honestly thought would help his people - brave but misplaced values Another might just have been a drone being used by the establishment - weak fool (I think these first two are likely the most popular stereotypes people think of) Another might have been able to ditch/survive but wanted to remembered as a hero or just do what the others did - coward Maybe some just crashed where they did - chance and so on - how do you know what another's motivations are at the moment they 'choose' to die. In any case, I personally think 'choosing' suicide as a destructive choice is a bad decision unless it's extremely personal (one on one - you know "that specific person" will live as a result of your sacrifice. Pushing someone out of the way of a car, saving a drowning person at the cost of your own life, taking on the tiger so the family can escape, jumping on the grenade, etc). Allusions to a 'larger' subjective purpose is just another form of self delusion. I mean, if it's such a large purpose, then there is room for planning and 'suicide' bombing/crashing is a result of bad planning or laziness or indication of low value of human life. When you get to the 'intimate, eye to eye' level, a suicide kamikaze or suicide bomber is choosing to use his life to kill - not save life. If his motive is self perceived as honorable (it can be and still be a wrong choice), then it's based on delusion. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites eaglenrider 0 #24 May 31, 2005 . The kamakazi pilots wore the Japanese uniforms, Oh! It's all about fashion then? I doubt the Iraqi Resistance Forces have alot of funding for *spiffy* uniforms. Does their niggardly finances make them less brave? Blues , Cliff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,587 #25 May 31, 2005 QuoteWhen you get to the 'intimate, eye to eye' level, a suicide kamikaze or suicide bomber is choosing to use his life to kill - not save life. If his motive is self perceived as honorable (it can be and still be a wrong choice), then it's based on delusion. Very nicely said. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. 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mr2mk1g 10 #7 May 31, 2005 Um... do you have any idea what a Kamakazi is? You talk of killing civilians and of attacking the "infidels"... are you sure you're talking about Kamikaze's or have you somehow got them confused with something that muslims are doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #9 May 31, 2005 QuoteI was watching a documentary about Kamakazi pilots and the cult of Bushido yesterday and wondered what you all thought about these men and what they did. Personaly I think they were brave men doing all they could to defend their homeland and their way of life. We must have had different History books. Mine said Japan was the aggressor in WW2. How do you justify their acts as defensive? Desperate would be a better description. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #10 May 31, 2005 They only turned to the use of Kamikaze and Kaiten pilots in defense of their territories. Yes they were the aggressors in WWII but then ended up defending after the loss of their carrier fleet at Midway. There's no hidden meaning to the term "defense" - even bad people are allowed to adopt a defensive strategy militarily speaking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #11 May 31, 2005 QuoteUm... do you have any idea what a Kamakazi is? You talk of killing civilians and of attacking the "infidels"... are you sure you're talking about Kamakazi's or have you somehow got them confused with something that muslims are doing? Yes "Kamakazis" were the Japanesse psycho pilots from WWII. Now they may not have specifically targeted civilians but what Skyrad is clearly trying to do here is draw a parallel with the Muslim suicide bombers who do. In anycase, I still hold that anybody who is able to be convinced to partake in a suicide mission is a mind-numbed idiot, not a hero, not brave.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #12 May 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteI was watching a documentary about Kamakazi pilots and the cult of Bushido yesterday and wondered what you all thought about these men and what they did. Personaly I think they were brave men doing all they could to defend their homeland and their way of life. I find myself agreeing with you on this one, which personally leaves me in a delema, I have to somehow seperate them from todays suicide bombers Kamakazi pilots did what they felt was a last resort and necessary for the betterment of their families and certainly did not wish to die, and only attacked those they were directly at war with - namely military targets. Suicide bombers will do something almost incomprehendable to normal human beings, often as a first resort to what they think is right, not necessarily something that is deemed necessary, for the betterment of themselves (they are going to be sent straight to their God to live in unimaginable and eternal bliss) and will often target non military targets. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #13 May 31, 2005 QuoteThe cowardice displayed yesterday by the two suicide bombers is clearly demonstrated by the way they executed their deed. I don't understand why people use the word coward to describe suicide bombers - they may be a lot of things, but coward isn't one of them. In my view, there is little difference between Japanese suicide bombers and any other suicide bomber. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #14 May 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe cowardice displayed yesterday by the two suicide bombers is clearly demonstrated by the way they executed their deed. I don't understand why people use the word coward to describe suicide bombers - they may be a lot of things, but coward isn't one of them. In my view, there is little difference between Japanese suicide bombers and any other suicide bomber. I described their acts as cowardice based on the way they perpetrate them. Yesterday's killers deliberately mingled with a crowd of innocent people when they detonated their explosives. The kamakazi pilots wore the Japanese uniforms, flew in aircraft showing distinct identification markings and only attacked military targets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #15 May 31, 2005 QuoteI described their acts as cowardice based on the way they perpetrate them. Yesterday's killers deliberately mingled with a crowd of innocent people when they detonated their explosives. The kamakazi pilots wore the Japanese uniforms, flew in aircraft showing distinct identification markings and only attacked military targets. Cowardice is a lack of courage, or it is showing fear in the face of danger. It may be immoral and wrong to mingle amongst innocent civilians and blow yourself up, but it isn't cowardly. Suicide bombing seems far braver to me than say bombing people from 45,000ft or firing missiles at them from miles away. The Japanese also employed suicide submarine pilots that snuck up on allied shipping and detonated themselves - i don't think they felt they needed to display their credentials in order for it to be legit - dying for the emperor and for japan was considered noble whatever way it took place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #16 May 31, 2005 Actualy Steel I wasn't about to start banging on about Iraq but as its been brought up... Erroll what if a suicide bomber in Iraq is clothed in a recognisable 'uniform' and attacks a millitary target? Is there a big diference? On the program I was watching they also showed Japanese Army suicide bombers that belived strongly in the Bushido cult and did exactly what the suicide bombers in Iraq did to American troops in the same way. *Climbing into flame proof coverall* And before anyone says I do, I don't support the suicide bombers but I do think it takes courage to do what they do.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #17 May 31, 2005 I think it takes more courage to live, then to die. Suicide is the easy way out. It doesn't take much to commit suicide, but it takes courage to live with mistakes and face the rest of your natural life. Suicide bombers = lowlife cowards Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #18 May 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote Personaly I think they were brave men doing all they could to defend their homeland and their way of life. ... leaves me in a delema, I have to somehow seperate them from todays suicide bombers Kamakazi pilots did what they felt was a last resort and necessary for the betterment of their families and certainly did not wish to die, and only attacked those they were directly at war with - namely military targets. . I find it funny how many people try to romanticize this. In any case it did not serve to protect their families, as all it really did was cause us (American's) to have to use the nuclear option on them.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #19 May 31, 2005 QuoteIn anycase, I still hold that anybody who is able to be convinced to partake in a suicide mission is a mind-numbed idiot, not a hero, not brave. [sarcasm] Yeah, the true brave man and heroes will not die for what they believe. Brave people picks on enemies who can take out easily by more advance weaponry. [/sarcasm] Edited to remark the unfortunate words: "mind numbed idiot". Truly unfortunate for nowadays people are willing to believe pretty much anything. I mean, what is the excuse this month for the Iraq war? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #20 May 31, 2005 QuoteIn any case it did not serve to protect their families, as all it really did was cause us (American's) to have to use the nuclear option on them. Nice job avoiding responsability. So how did they make you use WMD on them? By not doing what you wanted them to do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #21 May 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteIn any case it did not serve to protect their families, as all it really did was cause us (American's) to have to use the nuclear option on them. Nice job avoiding responsability. So how did they make you use WMD on them? By not doing what you wanted them to do? A little common sense will clear everything up for you. If you break into my house trying to kill me. I will blow your head off with my shotgun, and then I will walk over to the door and shoot ten other idiots headed for my house before they get there. I won't feel the least bit guilty about it. And when I compare that to what the U.S. did nuking Japan, I feel like a great American, who can see eye to eye with other Americans.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #22 May 31, 2005 What are your views on Japanese suicide bombers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #23 May 31, 2005 I'd still defer to the individual - so you don't know and never will. One guy might have used his last moments for the greatest effects in something he honestly thought would help his people - brave but misplaced values Another might just have been a drone being used by the establishment - weak fool (I think these first two are likely the most popular stereotypes people think of) Another might have been able to ditch/survive but wanted to remembered as a hero or just do what the others did - coward Maybe some just crashed where they did - chance and so on - how do you know what another's motivations are at the moment they 'choose' to die. In any case, I personally think 'choosing' suicide as a destructive choice is a bad decision unless it's extremely personal (one on one - you know "that specific person" will live as a result of your sacrifice. Pushing someone out of the way of a car, saving a drowning person at the cost of your own life, taking on the tiger so the family can escape, jumping on the grenade, etc). Allusions to a 'larger' subjective purpose is just another form of self delusion. I mean, if it's such a large purpose, then there is room for planning and 'suicide' bombing/crashing is a result of bad planning or laziness or indication of low value of human life. When you get to the 'intimate, eye to eye' level, a suicide kamikaze or suicide bomber is choosing to use his life to kill - not save life. If his motive is self perceived as honorable (it can be and still be a wrong choice), then it's based on delusion. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eaglenrider 0 #24 May 31, 2005 . The kamakazi pilots wore the Japanese uniforms, Oh! It's all about fashion then? I doubt the Iraqi Resistance Forces have alot of funding for *spiffy* uniforms. Does their niggardly finances make them less brave? Blues , Cliff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,587 #25 May 31, 2005 QuoteWhen you get to the 'intimate, eye to eye' level, a suicide kamikaze or suicide bomber is choosing to use his life to kill - not save life. If his motive is self perceived as honorable (it can be and still be a wrong choice), then it's based on delusion. Very nicely said. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
