billvon 3,112
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Steel 0
Quote>Its the difference between near-certain and certain.
WALSH, William G. (FL)
Gunnery Sergeant, USMCR
Medal of Honor Recipient
From the citation:
-----------------------
When one of the grenades fell in the midst of his surviving men, huddled together in a small trench, Gunnery Sergeant Walsh, in a final valiant act of complete self-sacrifice, instantly threw himself upon the deadly bomb, absorbing with his own body the full and terrific force of the explosion. Through his extraordinary initiative and inspiring valor in the face of certain death, he saved his comrades from injury and possible loss of life and enabled his company to seize and hold this vital enemy position. He gallantly gave his life for his country.
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So a guy who throws himself on a grenade that may very kill him as well as his fellow men in effort to absorb the shock and save his commrads, in your mind, is equivalent to one who straps a grenade to himself and runs into a building to kill as many of the enemy as possible, whatever...If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.
billvon 3,112
>So a guy who throws himself on a grenade that may very kill him as
>well as his fellow men in effort to absorb the shock and save his
> commrads, in your mind, is equivalent to one who straps a grenade
>to himself . . .
By your definition he is. I think that in your mind arabs who go to their deaths to kill americans are insane, whereas US soldiers who go to their deaths to kill the enemy are heroes. Don't feel bad about it - we're indoctrinated with such ideas pretty early on.
BTW here are a few more of our heroes, who received medals by facing certain death and killing a lot of people:
BAKER, THOMAS A.
Seargeant, U.S. Army, Company A, 105th Infantry, 27th Infantry Division.
Medal of Honor Recipient
. . . Without ammunition and with his own weapon battered to uselessness from hand-to-hand combat, he was carried about 50 yards to the rear by a comrade, who was then himself wounded. At this point Sgt. Baker refused to be moved any farther stating that he preferred to be left to die rather than risk the lives of any more of his friends. A short time later, at his request, he was placed in a sitting position against a small tree . Another comrade, withdrawing, offered assistance. Sgt. Baker refused, insisting that he be left alone and be given a soldier's pistol with its remaining 8 rounds of ammunition. When last seen alive, Sgt. Baker was propped against a tree, pistol in hand, calmly facing the foe. Later Sgt. Baker's body was found in the same position, gun empty, with 8 Japanese lying dead before him. His deeds were in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Army.
*O'BRIEN, WILLIAM J.
Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Army, 1st Battalion, 105th Infantry, 27th Infantry Division.
Medal of Honor Recipient
. . . . Even after he was seriously wounded, Lt. Col. O'Brien refused to be evacuated and after his pistol ammunition was exhausted, he manned a .50 caliber machinegun, mounted on a jeep, and continued firing. When last seen alive he was standing upright firing into the Jap hordes that were then enveloping him. Some time later his body was found surrounded by enemy he had killed His valor was consistent with the highest traditions of the service.
>well as his fellow men in effort to absorb the shock and save his
> commrads, in your mind, is equivalent to one who straps a grenade
>to himself . . .
By your definition he is. I think that in your mind arabs who go to their deaths to kill americans are insane, whereas US soldiers who go to their deaths to kill the enemy are heroes. Don't feel bad about it - we're indoctrinated with such ideas pretty early on.
BTW here are a few more of our heroes, who received medals by facing certain death and killing a lot of people:
BAKER, THOMAS A.
Seargeant, U.S. Army, Company A, 105th Infantry, 27th Infantry Division.
Medal of Honor Recipient
. . . Without ammunition and with his own weapon battered to uselessness from hand-to-hand combat, he was carried about 50 yards to the rear by a comrade, who was then himself wounded. At this point Sgt. Baker refused to be moved any farther stating that he preferred to be left to die rather than risk the lives of any more of his friends. A short time later, at his request, he was placed in a sitting position against a small tree . Another comrade, withdrawing, offered assistance. Sgt. Baker refused, insisting that he be left alone and be given a soldier's pistol with its remaining 8 rounds of ammunition. When last seen alive, Sgt. Baker was propped against a tree, pistol in hand, calmly facing the foe. Later Sgt. Baker's body was found in the same position, gun empty, with 8 Japanese lying dead before him. His deeds were in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Army.
*O'BRIEN, WILLIAM J.
Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Army, 1st Battalion, 105th Infantry, 27th Infantry Division.
Medal of Honor Recipient
. . . . Even after he was seriously wounded, Lt. Col. O'Brien refused to be evacuated and after his pistol ammunition was exhausted, he manned a .50 caliber machinegun, mounted on a jeep, and continued firing. When last seen alive he was standing upright firing into the Jap hordes that were then enveloping him. Some time later his body was found surrounded by enemy he had killed His valor was consistent with the highest traditions of the service.
jakee 1,594
QuoteI was watching a documentary about Kamakazi pilots and the cult of Bushido yesterday and wondered what you all thought about these men and what they did. Personaly I think they were brave men doing all they could to defend their homeland and their way of life.
Reading through this thread I wouldn't compare Kamikaze's with modern bombers, but there are certain similarities. The indoctrination issue for example, dying in battle gets you to the highest level of the afterlife, right (below the Emperor, anyway)?
Besides the question of their bravery, put into the context of the general conduct of the Japanese army during that war and the numerous atrocities committed I would find it very difficult to admire them, brave or not.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
QuoteWhat are your views on Japanese suicide bombers?
I am somewhat divided about this issue. For once, Japan was the attacker. I am against all sort of violence unless it is strictly for self defense, so i cannot aprove any tactic by what i consider attackers.
Anyway, from a tactical point of view i think that wether it is in japan, palestina or Iraq is a desperate measure that sometimes it could be the only measure. So i guess it is alright if we forget about the surrounding circumstances.
But for sure i wouldn´t ever say a kamikaze is a coward. He may be wrong about his ideals, but they are his ideals and have the balls to defend them. I have another opinion though of those who send kamikaes to loose their lives.
Skyrad 0
Not suprising as they were the enemy. The Germans had concentration camps in WWI and WWII, just as us English had concentration camps for women and children in which we killed 26,000 during the Boer war. American soldiers commited attrocities and massacred civillians during the Vietnam war.Not to mention the firebombing of the civilian targets of Dresden, Hambourg and other cities. Its easy to point out the splinter in your brothers eye and ignore the plank in your own. Were the young fliers who we now owe our freeedom to any less admirable because of the actions of bomber command?
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
BillyVance 35
Well, when Japan decided to start using kamikaze suicide missions, they only recruited the mediocre pilots, or those who had little experience. The aces were kept for the aerial dogfights or other special bombing missions.
I'd have to say it was a pretty effective way of warfare. The most dangerous enemy is one who doesn't care if he dies trying to kill you. I'm not sure if it's cowardly, but definitely suicidal.
Where do you think Al Qaida got their ideas from for the 9/11 attacks?
I'd have to say it was a pretty effective way of warfare. The most dangerous enemy is one who doesn't care if he dies trying to kill you. I'm not sure if it's cowardly, but definitely suicidal.
Where do you think Al Qaida got their ideas from for the 9/11 attacks?
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban
rehmwa 2
QuoteIn other words, don't kill yourself for a freaking 'cause'.
__________________________________________________
Interesting!
Let me ask you this.
Do you consider standing up to a superior force on a battlefield where your death is a probable certainty "suicide".
You are purposely misreading me just to be contentious. I'm not playing that game. If you want to go to the term suicide and define it by negative connotations applied to one aspect of it, knock yourself out. Personally, I don't like semantics games.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rehmwa 2
QuoteHe gallantly gave his life for his country.
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You really going to call this guy a mind-numbed idiot? And is he any less of a hero because he thought he would go to heaven, see his long-lost friends and get a harp?
You are also purposely misreading Steel just to be contentious. What's the point, just feeling belligerant (sp?) today? Or does this thread need to be opened up with a couple well place devil's advocate comments?
Edit: Not that there's anything wrong with that, but you both could do it with more flare if you ask me than just attributing a misread and going off on that self-created tangents.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
billvon 3,112
>You are also purposely misreading Steel just to be contentious.
Not at all. I am taking his definition literally. I assume if he meant something else he would have said something else.
It's an issue most people don't think much about. If a marine runs into a japanese machine gun nest, guns a-blazin, and kills a lot of them before they kill him, he's a hero. If an insurgent does that to a US army checkpoint in Iraq he's a crazed terrorist. If a US pilot steers his mortally wounded fighter into an enemy carrier and destroys it, he's gonna get an award. If a japanese pilot does the same, people here call him insane.
These people are operating the same way, using the same tactics. We call the marine/US pilot heroes because they are good at their jobs (defending our country.) It's important to keep in mind that there are people who feel the same way about the insurgent, even if we don't.
Not at all. I am taking his definition literally. I assume if he meant something else he would have said something else.
It's an issue most people don't think much about. If a marine runs into a japanese machine gun nest, guns a-blazin, and kills a lot of them before they kill him, he's a hero. If an insurgent does that to a US army checkpoint in Iraq he's a crazed terrorist. If a US pilot steers his mortally wounded fighter into an enemy carrier and destroys it, he's gonna get an award. If a japanese pilot does the same, people here call him insane.
These people are operating the same way, using the same tactics. We call the marine/US pilot heroes because they are good at their jobs (defending our country.) It's important to keep in mind that there are people who feel the same way about the insurgent, even if we don't.
rehmwa 2
Yes, we have established you are a literal person. Even when capable of understanding the other person's intent, it is more fun to play word games.
(note: I like to do it also. you do realize how annoying it is - it's part of the fun)
when did the kamikaze pilots become 'insurgents'? - where did you go?
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
(note: I like to do it also. you do realize how annoying it is - it's part of the fun)
when did the kamikaze pilots become 'insurgents'? - where did you go?
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rehmwa 2
Quote>If a US pilot chooses to steers his mortally wounded fighter into an enemy carrier and destroys it, he's gonna get an award. If a japanese pilot is ordered to do it as part of the battle plan does the same, people here call him insane.
Just for clarity here in the distinction - although I know you are fully aware of the difference.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
WALSH, William G. (FL)
Gunnery Sergeant, USMCR
Medal of Honor Recipient
From the citation:
-----------------------
When one of the grenades fell in the midst of his surviving men, huddled together in a small trench, Gunnery Sergeant Walsh, in a final valiant act of complete self-sacrifice, instantly threw himself upon the deadly bomb, absorbing with his own body the full and terrific force of the explosion. Through his extraordinary initiative and inspiring valor in the face of certain death, he saved his comrades from injury and possible loss of life and enabled his company to seize and hold this vital enemy position. He gallantly gave his life for his country.
----------------------
You really going to call this guy a mind-numbed idiot? And is he any less of a hero because he thought he would go to heaven, see his long-lost friends and get a harp?
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